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  1. #121
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Well about Thracian military... I think ludwag especialy interested with southern thracians...
    current thracian units are nearly totaly fill the whole historical thracian military except a heavier cavalry bodyguard and maybe an archer.

    if you mean with 'shock' infantary of Thracians it is represented in Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry) They are using only melee weapon. And they are not wielding long sword. I make a custom battle to see what weapons look like and it is not the long sword it is pure deadly rhomphaia !!! :D

    Well if you can make with only simple search you will see majority of southern Thracians infantry were using peltast. EB divided major thracian infantry into two;
    Thraikioi Peltastai
    Thraikioi Doryphoroi

    Probably Thraikioi Peltastai represents wealthier and more profesional warriors of thracians while Thraikioi Doryphoroi represents poorer. Both are 'peltast throwing' units as being true thracian! :D

    And there are some other special infantries;
    Taxeis Triballoi
    Gallathraikes

    Texeis Triballoi represents fierce southern thracian tribe. at 272 they are beaten by Celts and forced to east. They are also 'peltast throwing' unit.
    Gallathraikes represent celtic influenced Thracian infantry after celtic invasion. They are also 'peltast throwing' unit.

    Both of then are much like specific types of Thraikioi Peltastai. I mean wealthy and more profesional thracian infantry with some diferences or influences.

    Well i think i can describe southern thracian infantry.

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  2. #122
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    You're forgetting something hugely important.

    Thraikoi Rhomphaiaphoroi.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  3. #123
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    You're forgetting something hugely important.

    Thraikoi Rhomphaiaphoroi.
    No... I said it in the beginning;

    if you mean with 'shock' infantary of Thracians it is represented in Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry) They are using only melee weapon. And they are not wielding long sword. I make a custom battle to see what weapons look like and it is not the long sword it is pure deadly rhomphaia !!! :D
    And if you say about their 'position' or station in thracian army, they are the elite. Probably more profienced and wealthy warriors than Thraikioi Peltastai. And also they probably had 'fanatic' site. Thracians were religious people! :D

    But I think they may still have javelins... I have to make more detailed search about it but they may have....

    This situation is same for Thracian Medium cavalry.They were also using javelins too. but i think it is beacuse of 'engine limitations'...

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  4. #124
    Member Member ludwag's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    but Thraikioi Peltastai are the closest to thracian infantry. I think they are what i am talking about. but they are still missile unit. and why are they wearing armour?

  5. #125
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwag View Post
    but Thraikioi Peltastai are the closest to thracian infantry. I think they are what i am talking about. but they are still missile unit. and why are they wearing armour?

    Well well well...
    why they are wearing armor!...hehe for some protection! :D

    Let's take this question in two ways:

    First think it about fantastic stuff or gaming stuff. You probably see many armored archers in pc games. There are some in R:TW and MII:TW.
    And also may be you watch Lord of The Rings movie. You may notice archer of gondor in plate mails!


    Well let's think it in second way... Historical way:
    There are many armored archers or 'missile' troops. Like Turkish sipahis. they are mounted troops armed with bows , swords and usualy wears chain mail and carries shield.

    Well about Thracian Peltast.
    Tribal people militarises are not 'professional' armies of modern age. even not like 'civilised' ones in their era. Their economical conditions effect how well they are armed as well as their skill and experience.

    So thracians as founders of peltast used it in battles. It is some kind of their 'mark' in battlefield.
    Poorer ones arms with simple and more easly usable equipments. And weathier and braver ones wears more rich arms are more 'professional' arms.

    Well probably in your point of view to 'thracian infantry' thracian army mostly consisted of 'missle infantries'

    Cihan

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  6. #126

    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwag View Post
    but Thraikioi Peltastai are the closest to thracian infantry. I think they are what i am talking about. but they are still missile unit. and why are they wearing armour?
    This, I think, is a legitimate issue. The majority of representations of lighter Thracian infantry that we have show them without any body armour. I think this goes along with a trend in EB in general, though, in which the EB historians have opted to reconstruct units as heavily armoured as the evidence may allow.

  7. #127
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    That essentially has been the case due to how the RTW engine represents only one type in what could be a variety. In the case of thureophoroi, if it is possible for a linothorax then every individual gets a linothorax. Made things easier for stating and modelling. But hey, expect changes for EB2 since M2TW gives us so many options.

  8. #128
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Hey, abou? You know I love you, right?
    Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 10-11-2008 at 03:46.

  9. #129
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts):
    Armour: 8
    Shield: 2
    Skill: 8

    and I am looking the picture of the unit...


    Well Armour: 8... Shield: 2 well everything seems to be in order....
    The only problem about them is I think this;
    Discipline: normal
    Probably for game balance but they may be 'Disciplined' unit.

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  10. #130

    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by Oqlanth View Post
    Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts):
    ----
    Probably for game balance but they may be 'Disciplined' unit.
    Why? What evidence do you have for this? Why would the generic infantry of a society like the Thracians' necessarily be disciplined?

  11. #131
    I is da bestest at grammar Member Strategos Alexandros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwag View Post
    maybe i just dont like that is says "missile" when holding over them.
    AFAIK you can change that in the EDU
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  12. #132
    Member Member ludwag's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    but they still have skirmish mode as an option and more javelins than normal infantry.

  13. #133
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinPanzer View Post
    Why? What evidence do you have for this? Why would the generic infantry of a society like the Thracians' necessarily be disciplined?
    You give the answer;
    'The society like Thracian'
    Thracians are mostly professional soldiers. They were fighting for or against scyhtians , Macedonians , Hellens , Selucians , Ptolemians, Celts , Romans , Persians and of course among themself! :D

    We are not talking about 'generic infantary' from a Hellenic polis or early germanic tribe. Those were the tribes of war-like people who were also professional soldiers.

    This is first part and second part;

    in my opinion:

    Well if you can make with only simple search you will see majority of southern Thracians infantry were using peltast. EB divided major thracian infantry into two;
    Thraikioi Peltastai
    Thraikioi Doryphoroi

    Probably Thraikioi Peltastai represents wealthier and more profesional warriors of thracians while Thraikioi Doryphoroi represents poorer. Both are 'peltast throwing' units as being true thracian! :D
    Well not all thracian infantry wore this kind of armor. But unit of Thraikioi Peltastai are wearing heavier armor.
    This is from the description of the unit;

    Historically, the Thraikioi Peltastai have been around since the late Bronze Age and are often considered the archetype of the Thraikian warrior, though these Hellenized Peltastai are considerably more heavily armored than their fifth century ancestors. The Thraikioi Peltastai have been plying their deadly trade against Hellenes for as long as any Thraikian or Hellene can remember, and their method of warfare was so effective it was copied by the Hellenes and Makedonians and even mimicked by tribes as distant as the Illyrians. The number of battles and by whom they were used is uncountable. Suffice to say Thraikian peltastai have been used in every major conflict between Hellenic states, and will continue to be used.
    These are the most basic ones of the reasons when I said 'thracian peltast may be disciplined'....

    Cihan

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  14. #134
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Meanwhile I also notice this!:

    Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry):
    Lethality: 0.26 0.1 (there is no second weapon...probably lethality of second weapon is useless)

    Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts)
    Lethality: 1 0.285 (first weapon is javelins )

    Well for melee Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi 's lethality 0.26 and Thraikioi Peltastai 's lethality is 0.285 ! Higher than Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi !!!!

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  15. #135
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    We have a very complex stat system, it is impossible to just take two units and expect to divine some mistake or some reason behind it. Plus this is the EBII forums, not the EBI forums, comparing EBI units here is rather off-topic. Finally because there is no lethality stat in MTW2 you can expect some stat changes.

    On the matter of your little question, there are many other stats associated with weapons, including the fact that the Rhomphaiaphoroi have the armour piercing stat.

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  16. #136

    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by Oqlanth View Post
    You give the answer;
    'The society like Thracian'
    Thracians are mostly professional soldiers. They were fighting for or against scyhtians , Macedonians , Hellens , Selucians , Ptolemians, Celts , Romans , Persians and of course among themself! :D

    We are not talking about 'generic infantary' from a Hellenic polis or early germanic tribe. Those were the tribes of war-like people who were also professional soldiers.
    Some Thracians fought as mercenaries. However, this unit is meant, AFAIK, to represent the generic infantry of Thrace, who would by no means by "professional soldiers." Fighting against many different peoples does not necessarily make the line infantry of a military disciplined.

    In the same vein, some Galatians fought as mercenaries. Does that mean that your average Galatian infantryman from Galatia proper should be disciplined? No, it doesn't.

    Also, "generic infantry" from a Hellenic polis? Like the disciplined ranks of the hoplite phalanx?

    I don't know why you're arguing so strongly just for the Thracians, but your impressions of their abilities are distorted.

  17. #137
    Member Member ludwag's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    what about making the thracian pelatists more light, and make a new thacian infantry with javelins, that looks much the same, and fights the same, but are very different in stats. more infantry-like.

    i love that there is many thacian units in eb 1, but i cant stop feeling there is a huge gap :(

  18. #138
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Unit slots are a premium. As paullus said, and he should know as he is Faction Coordinator for the Getai faction, the Thracian list is fairly complete. This has been discussed ad nauseum, the Thracian list is not going to change very much for EBII, and there is unlikely to be new units for the area.

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  19. #139
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot View Post
    We have a very complex stat system, it is impossible to just take two units and expect to divine some mistake or some reason behind it. Plus this is the EBII forums, not the EBI forums, comparing EBI units here is rather off-topic. Finally because there is no lethality stat in MTW2 you can expect some stat changes.

    On the matter of your little question, there are many other stats associated with weapons, including the fact that the Rhomphaiaphoroi have the armour piercing stat.

    Foot


    Well I am not 'expect to divine some mistake or some reason behind it' ... I just noticed this and want to share it at forms... look what i said:

    Meanwhile I also notice this!:

    Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry):
    Lethality: 0.26 0.1 (there is no second weapon...probably lethality of second weapon is useless)

    Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts)
    Lethality: 1 0.285 (first weapon is javelins )

    Well for melee Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi 's lethality 0.26 and Thraikioi Peltastai 's lethality is 0.285 ! Higher than Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi !!!!
    Are there any word or verb which is blaming EB or EB team!!!....
    Well communication at forums is hard thing...There are 'very few' forums which i like to use... There are every kind of people who get advantage of freedom to say what they want in many way.

    But I am not one of them!!!

    And about....Rhomphaiaphoroi having armor piercing... Peltastai also have armor piercing...

    Last word... I know your hard work...! go on and make good game...!

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  20. #140
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Look, I'm not having a go. I'm just saying that a) this is not the correct forum, b) you've spent several posts criticising the thracian units in EBI (not EBII), and c) there is more going behind the stats that you realise. If you don't want to misunderstood then you need to lose some of the exclamation marks. They aren't full stops they have a meaning and stress the importance of a sentence beyond the actual words behind it. Using 5 exclamation marks in quick succession leads me to believe that there is a sense of disbelief with those stats. Leading me to believe that you are raising a mistake. Not only is it not a mistake but it isn't even in the right forum.

    So use less exclamation marks, please. They aren't just fancy punctuation, they express a meaning.

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  21. #141
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinPanzer View Post
    Some Thracians fought as mercenaries. However, this unit is meant, AFAIK, to represent the generic infantry of Thrace, who would by no means by "professional soldiers." Fighting against many different peoples does not necessarily make the line infantry of a military disciplined.

    In the same vein, some Galatians fought as mercenaries. Does that mean that your average Galatian infantryman from Galatia proper should be disciplined? No, it doesn't.

    Also, "generic infantry" from a Hellenic polis? Like the disciplined ranks of the hoplite phalanx?

    I don't know why you're arguing so strongly just for the Thracians, but your impressions of their abilities are distorted.
    Well well well... I do not know where to start... :D

    Let's start form here:

    Also, "generic infantry" from a Hellenic polis? Like the disciplined ranks of the hoplite phalanx?
    No... As we all can know disciplined ranks of hoplite phalanx is not 'generic infantry'... We even in 'EB' you can see disciplined ranks of hoplite phalanx is not generic infantry...

    It is something like 'believing' 300 spartans hold against one billion persians...

    300 spartans are core of the fight yes but they are not alone...

    Well...well...well...

    Thracians fought as mercenaries. However, this unit is meant, AFAIK, to represent the generic infantry of Thrace, who would by no means by "professional soldiers.
    This may mean... But if you insist to look from 'empty side' of the glass you can find many distorted reasons...

    And last of all to finish this;
    What i said in my early post about 'disciplined' thracian peltast;

    Probably for game balance but they may be 'Disciplined' unit.

    Ahh...Ahh... Forum Generation!....



    Nevermind.... I think i can tell myself :D

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  22. #142
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    well Foot,

    I am not critising thracian units for posts... There is an 'ongoing' converstaion about thracian units under post and i just join it

    And about 'this is not place to discuss units in EBI'... Well... Don't say me EBII team will not create units mostly based on EBI... So discussing EBI units are some how discussing EBII units... Simple :D

    Amd about exclamation marks... you are probably right from your position... there is no need to make 'deep discussion' about this...

    Cihan

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  23. #143
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    I really don't get the above post

    Please can we stop talking about the Thracians. No one has put forward any information beyond conjecture on this matter to make changes to the Thracian roster. Can we please move on. Please.

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  24. #144
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot View Post
    I really don't get the above post

    Please can we stop talking about the Thracians. No one has put forward any information beyond conjecture on this matter to make changes to the Thracian roster. Can we please move on. Please.

    Foot
    SURE!
    until next time but you can't stop the Thracians! hehehe...

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  25. #145
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    He's saying bring up some sources before you keep talking about them.

  26. #146
    Member Member Oqlanth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Hrrr....
    What i said... SURE!...
    OK!...
    No need to act like a pedant!
    Hrrr.....

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  27. #147
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your suggestions for new units !

    Alright. I'm locking this thread. It was started by a troll and as devolved into nothing more than a shouting match over thracian units that we haven't even previewed yet. This isn't about new units this is about old units.

    Closed.

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