The Perfect MTW?

[Raz]

This is a calling to all modders of MTW, young and old (and those in-between). Perhaps it is time to produce The Perfect MTW?

A mod that blends realism with gameplay, and historical accuracy with... well, even more gameplay. A mod that is so graphically pleasing to the eye, both in battle and on the campaign map, that your eyes will not be able to recognise the difference between The Perfect MTW and the graphics on the next-gen consoles. A mod that is challenging, immersive, balanced and so wonderfully enjoyable that you don't play any other game.


Think of it: If one modder can produce one amazing piece of work, what could umpteen modders do when they put their minds together?

I await replies with trepidation.
No, this is not a joke.

[Drunk-Monk]

As modders can't change the hardcode, there is no way that they could change the graphics too anything approaching next gen. Also what's wrong with the current mods most of them have what you described, but more importantly there are very few modders left for MTW as they have mostly moved on to newer games or simply quit.

[Tyberius]

That´s what I have been waiting for..

I'm IN

[The Unknown Guy]

Might as well use this thread for a rant as it is somewhat related.

Anyway, I was thinking on a "back to the roots" approach to MTW modding. I am under the impression, which might be more or less accurate, or more or less damn wrong, that the AI likely performs worse due to the massive number of units involved in the game, with varying stats, and uses. Thus, I was considering taking a mod approach that would (at first) remove all the units. Then, I'd add the basic ones, (spearmen, archers, light cavalry, heavy cavalry) which would have equivalents among all cultures (catholic-orthodox-muslim), but with cloned, or practically cloned, stats, to give all factions a mainstay of common units, which would form the core of the army (a currently existing example would be the muslim peasants and the christian peasants, which are the same except for the graphic). This way, the basic game would be more or less balanced, and from that we could build up, and add more and more specific units, without drowning the computer with unit and building choices which it simply wont manage properly.

[Durango]

Sounds interesting, but the old Medmod already has a similar setup by giving every faction (or almost) one unit for each role and each era.
There is also the matter of popularity, since the XL mod has so many "candy" features included that I doubt a purist approach would
garner much support/players.

No offence

[The Unknown Guy]

None taken :). This is mostly aimed at myself and my modding experiments, and at the moment I don't have time to get on it.

I will try to put it together this summer, though...

[Raz]

This sort of thing has been attempted before, but never so overtly. As said by Durango, the MedMod has a similar unit-roster structure, and so too does the newer Redux mod.
You can also try a rock-paper-scissors approach to unit balance. It's how Samurai Warlords has done it and the balance in that is finely tuned; the AI can handle the small pool of units very effectively.

[The Unknown Guy]

You can also try a rock-paper-scissors approach to unit balance.

yeah. That's what I am suggesting, basically. With just some extra units for flavor.

[Belisario]

I have tried this approach in my home mods and I would like to know a bit more of the method that you follow. I always have the same doubts:

1. Remove all crappy units?

2. Make all units of the same size except BGs like the mod Samurai Warlords?

3. Adjust the unit stats or maintain vanilla stats?

[The Unknown Guy]

I'm not really doing anything ATM. I was just musing a bit on game balance. I was wondering if there was any way of bringing Shogun's balance into MTW while keeping the diversity.
:/ I think Caravel was right. After Shogun they started adding too many features without really improving the AI to let it cope with them

[Belisario]

Maybe the way is what you suggest in post #4 and try a rock-paper-scissors approach to unit balance as Raz says. But then my questions are:

1. Are vanilla stats well adjusted to achieve a good unit balance?

2. Assuming that the catholic unit roster is too extensive, how do you get a more "easy to use" roster for the AI?

It's a pity that Caravel/Asai Nagamasa gave up the Pocket Mod, maybe he would reach a MTW more similar to Shogun.

[caravel]

I have tried this approach in my home mods and I would like to know a bit more of the method that you follow. I always have the same doubts:

1. Remove all crappy units?

2. Make all units of the same size except BGs like the mod Samurai Warlords?

3. Adjust the unit stats or maintain vanilla stats?

1. First the "crappy units" must be defined. Those units that imbalance the game must first be identified.

2. Yes, it makes perfect sense. Cavalry in MTW are actually not really strong enough. All units should be of equal sizes with true strengths and weaknesses according to RPS. Having different sized units simply breaks this, whether the unit be infantry or cavalry.

3. Adjust, most definitely. It is best to scrap the existing roster and start with a roster based on 120 man units at huge unit size (not the 200 man units possible in MTW).

Maybe the way is what you suggest in post #4 and try a rock-paper-scissors approach to unit balance as Raz says. But then my questions are:

1. Are vanilla stats well adjusted to achieve a good unit balance?

2. Assuming that the catholic unit roster is too extensive, how do you get a more "easy to use" roster for the AI?

1. Vanilla stats are not well adjusted. Some units such as Feudal Sergeants have realistic stats, others such the hybrid units break AI autocalc battles and supermen such as the huscarles are too overpowered and ruin the overall balance of the game.

2. You need a roster that has strong and useable RPS units per era. All catholic factions need to be able to train these same units. Regional bonuses should apply to only these units not the special units (if there are to be special units). This has two advantages: Firstly the bonus is obtainable and useable by all factions and secondly the AI will not go bankrupt and waste years trying to tech up a particular province to train an special unit that may not be available until the high/late eras anyway.

The units available should be one of each type per era. There is no sense in having 3 different types of unit that fit the same role available at the same time. A good example is the English in early with Spearmen, Feudal Sergeants and Fyrdmen. Fyrdmen should be removed altogether and Spearmen used as the standard spear unit for the early era. This ensures that the AI does not fight at a huge disadvantage to the player.

Also when a unit is superceded, for example FMAA -> CMAA, the earlier unit should be removed when the era changes over. This prevents the AI from continuing to train it and forces it to CMAA. This has to be coupled with a solid tech tree however.

MTW has two layers to the tech tree, the tree itself with it's building dependencies and the era based tree which prevents/allows units according to the period. This is one of the main flaws of the game - and one of the flaws that was absent from STW. There are three ways to rectify this so that the AI can better handle it.

a) Remove eras and use only the tech tree.

b) Use eras to make units expire, but don't use eras to prevent units being trained too early.

c) Use eras only and keep building dependencies for "upgraded" units the same. For example if the FMAA depend on a Swordsmith and armourer, so would CMAA but they would be era restricted.

In my opinion (c) is the best option as it entirely removes duplicate role units and keeps a simpler tech tree that the AI can deal with easily. Building upgrades can then be used purely for the better units or for adding valour or morale bonuses. Under the vanilla system when buildings are auto-razed the AI is paralysed and unable to train basic units in the high era and needs to undergo many turns worth of rebuilding. I would be far better if the base unit was available with, for example a spearmaker, and that the upgraded morale or valour unit is available with the workshop/guild/master spearmaker.

Yohei