The compassion of socialism.

[Kadagar_AV]

There is a difference between someone with a thyroid condition and someone eating at mc donalds 7 times a day. No?

[Redleg]

Because the long-term benefit to the state in having a healthy, non bankrupt citizenry able to work and produce outweighs the precarious hazards of someone who might do something unwise or have bad health issues. The argument that wasteful people will run around bankrupting the system is weak given that a) people are doing precisely that right now in our "free system" because they have to go to a taxpayer subsidized emergency room for treatment if they can't afford it b) people pay more in tax/healthcare than the actual cost because of all the poeple who can't pay anyway c) it has failed to bankrupt European countries having socialized medicine.

Since my arguement has not been present on that particlur issue its a bit early to actually address it. My point was to address the inconsistent arguement as present by Kadagar.

If an individual who abuses himself a single time is warranted medical treatment - then as he stated "Again, I dont advocate free healthcare for people who do NOT deserve it... like, again, fat people with heart problems or heroinists. " These people are also entitled to adequate health care. To state otherwise is being un-compassionate which is the initial arguement of this thread.

So with that in mind - do you wish to reconsider your two previous posts since you assumed something not in evidence?

[Redleg]

There is a difference between someone with a thyroid condition and someone eating at mc donalds 7 times a day. No?

Why should there be, under a socialized system and if the arguement is that its more compassionate then the individual's reason for needing care is "mote", "a small spect of sand in the sun" an insigficant issue concerning the need for care.

Your doing very well in demonstrating that socialized medicine and socialism is just as big a failure in compassion as any capitialistic system

[Koga No Goshi]

Our current government, The Labour Party.

So by this reasoning neocons in the U.S. are socialist.

[Strike For The South]

Are you serious? Are you saying we have local strongmen with a bit of cash taking over the government over and over occurs less in third world countries with weak governments than here?

That is not a comparable example. The constitution enumerates very few powers for a reason. Simply because two governments happen to be small does not mean they will follow the same path.

[Koga No Goshi]

Since my arguement has not been present on that particlur issue its a bit early to actually address it. My point was to address the inconsistent arguement as present by Kadagar.

If an individual who abuses himself a single time is warranted medical treatment - then as he stated "Again, I dont advocate free healthcare for people who do NOT deserve it... like, again, fat people with heart problems or heroinists. " These people are also entitled to adequate health care. To state otherwise is being un-compassionate which is the initial arguement of this thread.

So with that in mind - do you wish to reconsider your two previous posts since you assumed something not in evidence?

I can't speak for Kadagar's view. If individual European countries with socialized medicine have rules that can get you bumped out of coverage, that's up to them. I was expressing my own view about why the state has a vested interest in a healthy citizenry, even if some of those health problems are individually self-created.

[Koga No Goshi]

That is not a comparable example. The constitution enumerates very few powers for a reason. Simply because two governments happen to be small does not mean they will follow the same path.

The further back you go into our history, before all the "unnecessary and wasteful additions" to government that people rail about, you can still find as much oligarchical corruption and such as today. And people lived shorter and were less well off and their biggest hope in life was that their kids had only 1 bad harvest out of 5 instead of 2. I don't think anyone wants to seriously return to the days when the government did nothing but diplomacy and defense, and if they do, I think that a cush suburban life has completely alienated them from the reality of what such a society would be like.

[Redleg]

I can't speak for Kadagar's view. If individual European countries with socialized medicine have rules that can get you bumped out of coverage, that's up to them. I was expressing my own view about why the state has a vested interest in a healthy citizenry, even if some of those health problems are individually self-created.

Then you share my view on health care. THis is why I was addressing the lack of compassion for individuals regardless of the reason for being in that condition that Kadagar's view was expressing.


Now there will be differences in that view because I do beleive there is a great personal responsiblity for one's health - a responsiblity that is the citizen's not the governments. Now health care itself is to me a shared responsiblity between the individual and the state. The state can do more to regulate the insurance industry to insure adequate coverage would be one examble.

[Strike For The South]

The further back you go into our history, before all the "unnecessary and wasteful additions" to government that people rail about, you can still find as much oligarchical corruption and such as today. And people lived shorter and were less well off and their biggest hope in life was that their kids had only 1 bad harvest out of 5 instead of 2. I don't think anyone wants to seriously return to the days when the government did nothing but diplomacy and defense, and if they do, I think that a cush suburban life has completely alienated them from the reality of what such a society would be like.

I think one can thank the advancement of technology for the run of good harvests we have been having lately. The government screws you in the end. A necessary evil. I dont see how more power and more tax dollars solves anything. America should never follow Europe's lead in anything. We fought a war because of it. Not to mention people always point to countries like Norway and wonder why we cant be more like them. They dont realize we have 75 times the POP of Norway they red tape would be chrusing. I'd rather keep my money and take my chances. "cush suburban life"? Your Berkley is showing

[Koga No Goshi]

Then you share my view on health care. THis is why I was addressing the lack of compassion for individuals regardless of the reason for being in that condition that Kadagar's view was expressing.

Now there will be differences in that view because I do beleive there is a great personal responsiblity for one's health - a responsiblity that is the citizen's not the governments. Now health care itself is to me a shared responsiblity between the individual and the state. The state can do more to regulate the insurance industry to insure adequate coverage would be one examble.

Yeah I think that disqualifying people on a case by case basis out of shifting and arbitrary rules of who is "bringing bad health on themselves" is just ripe with abuse potential and we see that in the private insurance system, with people being bumped off because a condition was "pre existing" or "congenital" or whatever, even if the patient was not aware of it beforehand. And I think that in some part you can ultimately argue ANY health problem is in some way individually created. Like people knowing there is a genetic illness in the family having kids anyway, or heart disease being the leading cause of death among Americans with their diet and high fat intake, etc. So to start disqualifying people because they contributed to their own condition in some way seems like just an excuse not to have any form of insurance or healthcare system at all. That is in fact my problem with insurance companies.... they want, and have the profit motive, to only want to offer coverage to people who are unlikely to ever get seriously sick! And want to bump off, disqualify or reject treatment for people who do. So it's like, what's the friggin point?!

And I do not agree that every person should at all times be constantly submitting themsleves for testing for every possible expensive ailment or else it's their own personal responsibility fault when they do get sick with something unforeseeable. That's just not realistic. If you're talking about people smoking crack all day that's one thing, but I think that if you get nitpicky then everyone can be blamed for every health condition and it gets silly.

[KarlXII]

Once again, I can see that you are indeed a great thinker.

*I didn't highlight anything this time, I will let people use their imagination*

Seriosly though...

A) Drawing conclusions of a political system from ONE incident in ONE country is... Showing that deep minds have neen involved in the process.

B)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am no US basher... I am wayyyy more right-wing than most of sweden, i applaud a lot of things in the US, I have a great many friends over there...

However, when someone talks about socialistic states intruding on citizens, when they are from america who are about as intrusive as communist China, then I can not help but laugh.

It is funny, I have an old G.I. Joe (my heroes) comic... The characters talk about what is so bad about Russia, "The state tracks peoples communication" is mentioned as no. 1 thing... Hello Echelon:)

You have to find that ironic, no?

Sweden, Anti-Americanism, and Communism go hand and hand....and hand I guess

[Koga No Goshi]

I think one can thank the advancement of technology for the run of good harvests we have been having lately. The government screws you in the end. A necessary evil. I dont see how more power and more tax dollars solves anything. America should never follow Europe's lead in anything. We fought a war because of it. Not to mention people always point to countries like Norway and wonder why we cant be more like them. They dont realize we have 75 times the POP of Norway they red tape would be chrusing. I'd rather keep my money and take my chances. "cush suburban life"? Your Berkley is showing

I think not following a good idea just because Europe is doing it is dumb.

And, I have always shown you respect Strike, so I would ask you not to make stupid assumptions about what I think or where I get my ideas based on where I went to school. But since my going to Berkeley apparently "disqualifies my credibility" on every conceivable topic, let me give you a little edification. The Cal Berkeley Republicans is the largest student group on campus. You need a 4.0+ GPA and at the time I applied, 1400ish on the old SAT system (max 1600) to get in, plus other considerations, they weighed the entrance exam more than any of the other UC's did. The school is predominantly Asian American; mostly conservative (socially and financially) academic minded Asian kids who put their heads down and go to class. The big majors are the MBA program and microcellcular biology-- a majority of the kids you will meet from Berkeley never even set foot in a polysci class or ethnic studies class or anything that might expose them to anything "radical." The "reputation" of Berkeley is much better suited today for a school like Eugene, Oregon or maybe Santa Cruz, and the idea that it's just some brainwashing leftie Che Guevara separatista academy is not only bigoted but outdated and uninformed. So I would thank you not to respond to me by throwing out a sentiment along the lines of "oh well yeah of COURSE you think that, you're from Berkeley", especially since I do not do that to you. I'm not ashamed to have attended what was at that time (I don't sit around checking rankings) the top public university in the United States nor do I feel that should have any bearing on what I say anymore than me saying "yeah well, stupid people come from Texas and they're all Republican so of course you'd say that."

I didn't make that comment (about cush suburbans) at you individually... I think if people think going back to an unregulated Robber Baron period is a good thing then they are delusional or just have no conception of what a society like that would be like compared to what they are used to. It's just like people complaining all the time about city life and loving the great outdoors but do they want to go live there with no electricity and no running water 365 days a year? Hell no.

[Strike For The South]

I don't think not following a good idea just because Europe is doing it is dumb.

And, I have always shown you respect Strike, so I would ask you not to make stupid assumptions about what I think or where I get my ideas based on where I went to school. But since my going to Berkeley apparently "disqualifies my credibility" on every conceivable topic, let me give you a little edification. The Cal Berkeley Republicans is the largest student group on campus. You need a 4.0+ GPA and at the time I applied, 1400ish on the old SAT system (max 1600) to get in, plus other considerations, they weighed the entrance exam more than any of the other UC's did. The school is predominantly Asian American; mostly conservative (socially and financially) academic minded Asian kids who put their heads down and go to class. The big majors are the MBA program and microcellcular biology-- a majority of the kids you will meet from Berkeley never even set foot in a polysci class or ethnic studies class or anything that might expose them to anything "radical." The "reputation" of Berkeley is much better suited today for a school like Eugene, Oregon or maybe Santa Cruz, and the idea that it's just some brainwashing leftie Che Guevara separatista academy is not only bigoted but outdated and uninformed. So I would thank you not to respond to me by throwing out a sentiment along the lines of "oh well yeah of COURSE you think that, you're from Berkeley", especially since I do not do that to you.

I didn't make that comment (about cush suburbans) at you individually... I think if people think going back to an unregulated Robber Baron period is a good thing then they are delusional or just have no conception of what a society like that would be like compared to what they are used to. It's just like people complaining all the time about city life and loving the great outdoors but do they want to go live there with no electricity and no running water 365 days a year? Hell no.

I didnt mean any disrespect merely a jest Im sorry What it all boils down to for me is this. Its not the healthcare its the taxes and the power. I see my father and mother put 100 hours at the grocery store only to see a third of their paycheck going to things great social experiments all while trying to raise 6 kids. I see a government which not only takes my folks money but then decides it can tell them what to do and its not like we have any say in anything since we dont have money our congressman wont listen hes to busy with the NRA or planned parenthood. Maybe I have a skewed view from being with my uncles who were and still mostly are blue collar blowhards. I was taught to look down on people who didnt bust hump for a living. Who didnt spend there entire lives working to provide for there families.

Its not like there isnt a flip-side to this though. I look at my grandfather now and am saddened. He was run into the ground by a life of back breaking work. His arthritis and the years of smoking and drinking to cope with the hours leave the shadow of what was once a powerful man. Whenever a topic like this comes up with us he always tells everyone around the table he never "took a damned cent from the government" and I wonder it might have been better if he did. My father was luckier and I was even luckier (I got to continue with my education and go to college) Maybe in a couple of years I will realize that I have been indoctrinated and be more forgiving with my views. but as of now I see government as nothing more than an oppressive tool used to keep us down.


I wrote nothing of substance Ill come back with something better tmrw its bedtime

[Koga No Goshi]

I didnt mean any disrespect merely a jest Im sorry What it all boils down to for me is this. Its not the healthcare its the taxes and the power. I see my father and mother put 100 hours at the grocery store only to see a third of their paycheck going to things great social experiments all while trying to raise 6 kids. I see a government which not only takes my folks money but then decides it can tell them what to do and its not like we have any say in anything since we dont have money our congressman wont listen hes to busy with the NRA or planned parenthood. Maybe I have a skewed view from being with my uncles who were and still mostly are blue collar blowhards. I was taught to look down on people who didnt bust hump for a living. Who didnt spend there entire lives working to provide for there families.

Its not like there isnt a flip-side to this though. I look at my grandfather now and am saddened. He was run into the ground by a life of back breaking work. His arthritis and the years of smoking and drinking to cope with the hours leave the shadow of what was once a powerful man. Whenever a topic like this comes up with us he always tells everyone around the table he never "took a damned cent from the government" and I wonder it might have been better if he did. My father was luckier and I was even luckier (I got to continue with my education and go to college) Maybe in a couple of years I will realize that I have been indoctrinated and be more forgiving with my views. but as of now I see government as nothing more than an oppressive tool used to keep us down.


I wrote nothing of substance Ill come back with something better tmrw its bedtime

I'm sorry as well I just wanted to address that openly because you are not by far the first person to reference my going to UC Berkeley and I do not let anyone simply pour ideas into my head, so I very much resent the implication from anyone that I'm just repeating things I heard during my Berkeley education, which was over five years ago now. My education neither started nor stopped at UC Berkeley nor did I have all liberal/progressive professors, nor am I just repeating things I heard there from radicals.

I agree the political system is very corrupt and very much bent to the will of BIG special interests and corporations with the mega millions to do largescale lobbying and fly Congressmen around on private jets and golf resort trips. But, I simply feel that a smaller government with less regulation would create more of that, not less. In all of our history there has been instance after instance of concentrated wealth rising up and completely dominating the landscape of our social, economic and political existence until they wrecked something, and then normal people having to take the "responsibility" for it and pick up the pieces and dust off America. I don't think we disagree on the problem, I just think that your solution would make that problem worse, instead of better. And I think the huge scandals we have seen in recent years resulting from decades of dedicated "deregulation" and trying to get government "off people's backs" is evidence of it.

And yes, there are a lot of people like your grandfather, who didn't sit around suckling off welfare for a living, but still are going to retire with near nothing, or bankrupt, or without a house. And even once we eliminate the people who were irresponsible, the people who didn't save well, the people who made poor investments, or the people who didn't take Olympic level care of their physical health for their whole lives (and who the hell can while working, anyway?) , you are still left with what I believe is the majority of people who try to do the right thing and work and save and live within their means and still, cancer comes along or a layoff comes along or a corrupt company bails and files chapter 11 erasing stock values and pension funds while the CEO's run off with a golden parachute and that's all it takes to wipe out a lifetime of work from a person who tried to be responsible. And I think there would be more of that, not less, with a tiny government and no regulation.

[Strike For The South]

Well It seems were just on different ends of the spectrum. I dont know how much longer we can beat these ideologies to death. You're keeping me up you know. Im a growing boy for gods sake!

[Koga No Goshi]

Well It seems were just on different ends of the spectrum. I dont know how much longer we can beat these ideologies to death. You're keeping me up you know. Im a growing boy for gods sake!

Sorry about that, I slipped some tylenol PM into your booze if that helps. ;)

[Incongruous]

Utterly disgusted with the policy of withdrawing treatment to cancer patients. Why? Well because they had the timerity to purchase a life saving drug and so had NHS support terminated.

All this to satisfy a political ideology. Outrageous. Another example of socialsm and fascism being two cheeks of the same arse.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4882645.ece

Umm, since when has New Labour been aquainted with anything other than the ideology of bollocks and its fervent enactment by The Great Blair and Comrade Brown?

[CountArach]

states problem. Very little I learned has come through the public education system anyway and that is why I majoring in History and minoring in 2ndary education and Spanish. Dont assume Dundee

The states would be incapable of running a universal public education system (Especially because you have already said you want them to have fewer taxation powers) and it would lead to broad geographic inequalities. Consider North Dakota for instance. It has a smaller population that is far less dense than the North-Eastern region. This means that it has fewer options for corporations and mass industry that could allow for large levels of taxation income. This means that the amount of money it could put into the education system per student is far lower than that of New York, which in turn means their economy could not improve. This is why the Federal Government is there - to supplement the income of states so that parts of the country are not left behind.

[drone]

To expect compassion from a bureaucracy is the height of foolishness.


Regardless of the economic-political slant of said bureaucracy.

[Koga No Goshi]

To expect compassion from a bureaucracy is the height of foolishness.


Regardless of the economic-political slant of said bureaucracy.

This thread is over. Give this man a ribbon.

[Strike For The South]

This thread is over. Give this man a ribbon.

I said this for 26 posts.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

To expect compassion from a bureaucracy is the height of foolishness.


Regardless of the economic-political slant of said bureaucracy.

Good. Now everyone watch Yes, Minister.

[Koga No Goshi]

I said this for 26 posts.

You gotta learn to be concise! :)