Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[cmacq]

Goidellic? Never, obviously. The kw > p shift in Gaulish is hard to tie down exactly, but must have occurred some time between the break up of proto-Celtic in the Hallstatt era and the appearance of inscriptions such as the "Latumaros" Vase (c.200BC?) which definitely show the process complete. Goidellic kept the sound long intact (so the Ogams have MAQ, modern Irish & Scots Gaelic mac) while Celtiberian simplified it to a k.

So carefully now, based on the time frame and setting you provided before, for the P-shift, your actually saying that Goidellic is proto-Celt?


CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

So carefully now, based on the time frame and setting you provided before, for the P-shift, your actually saying that Goidellic is proto-Celt?

CmacQ

No. I'm saying that the change from kw to p must date from after Celtic was introduced into Ireland, because that particular change never happened in Ireland. Since that's usually dated to between 700 and 500BC, and proto-Celtic ceasing to be spoken as a single language between ~1200 and 800BC.

The point is the very large gap in time between the centum/satem split, with the latter merging the k'w and kw sounds, and the full labialisation in Celtic, Greek and Italic. It would be very strange for Lusitanian to be undergoing labialisation (an early 1st millenium BC phenomenon for everyone else) before it had differentiated kw and k'w which is something reckoned to have happened before - probably well before - 2000BC. It therefore looks as if Iccona could not derive from PIE *ek'wo- and isn't Epona.

[cmacq]

No. I'm saying that the change from kw to p must date from after Celtic was introduced into Ireland.

So by Celts in Ireland, you of course mean the Menapii? Or is that the Herpeditani???




CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

So by Celts in Ireland, you of course mean the Menapii? Or is that the Herpeditani???

CmacQ

Huh? I haven't even heard of the last one.

[Subotan]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.

[Mediolanicus]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.

I second that.

[Elmetiacos]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.

Abbreviations are confusing: PIE stands for Proto-Indo-European, the conjectural language spoken 5,000 years or more ago, the ancestor of all the languages spoken in Europe*, Northern India** and Iran***. The sign > means "eventually turned into" while < means "derives from" and kw is like a k-sound but made while rounding your lips... it's not quite the same as kw.

*except Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and Estonian (Uralic languages) and Basque, which has no relatives.
** except Burushaski, which is a weird language with no relatives (probably)
*** except Turkmen and Azeri (Altaic languages)

[Subotan]

Oh, I knew what PIE was; I even told a joke about it today (It wasn't very good). Also, shouldn't Etruscan be included as an isolate?

[Elmetiacos]

...or part of a Tyrrhenian family with Lemnaic and possibly Rhaetic, but nobody speaks Etruscan anymore.

[Subotan]

Nice. What are the roots of the Tyrrhenian family?

[Elmetiacos]

Don't know much about it; it's based on similarities between what's written the Lemnos stele and some Etruscan words. Some people include Rhaetic in the group as well, but others think that Rhaetic is IE. There are other rumours of languages spoken in Greece before Greek ("Pelasgian") which could belong as well.

[gamegeek2]

(NOTE - " ' " is written in place of the glottal stop, ʔ, to make it easier to read. Trust me, this is much easier to read than the original version.)

Howis 'ekwoses-kwe

Howis, kwesio wulneħ ne 'est, 'ekwoms speket, 'oinom krhum wogʰom wegʰontm, hoinom-kwe megehm bʰerom, hoinom-kwe dʰ'gʰmonm 'o'ku bʰerontm. Howis nu 'ekwobʰjos wewkwet: "Kard ħegʰnutoi moi, 'ekwoms ħegontm wi'rom widntei." 'ekwōs tu wewkwont: "Kludʰi, howi, kardes ħegʰuntoi nsmei widntbʰjos: ħner, poris, howjom-r wulneħm swebʰi kʰermom westrom kwrneuti. Howjom-kwe wulneħ ne 'esti." To kekluwos howis ħegrom bʰuget.

The Sheep and the Horses

A sheep, who had no wool, saw horses, one pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: "My heart pains me, seeing a man driving horses." The horses said: "Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool". Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.

[Elmetiacos]

I've read that before. Sometimes I think our ancestors must have gone around with really bad sore throats.

[Ibrahim]

I've read that before. Sometimes I think our ancestors must have gone around with really bad sore throats.

yeah, true that.

but does anyone here bow what those wierd sounds are (the kw, bw, and gw are about?

and is that crossed h like an arabic ha' sound? (like a really think h I guess is the best way to put it)

[bovi]

As far as I can remember there are three different H's in Arabic: the guttural, the short (like latin H) and the "breathing" one? It's been 10 years since I learned the tiny bit I know though.

[Ibrahim]

As far as I can remember there are three different H's in Arabic: the guttural, the short (like latin H) and the "breathing" one? It's been 10 years since I learned the tiny bit I know though.

you got it only partly right:

1-gutteral H (that's what I was asking about)
2-normal h (like english)

otherwise, there are no other h-sounds. here is a chart of consonents for Arabic, as per IPA (classical arabic, from the 6th-9th century AD)*:

alif=ʔ
ba'=b
ta'=t
tha'=θ
gim=ɟ or gʲ (simultanious g and y (as in yet)
ha'(gutteral)=ħ
kha'=χ
dal=d
dhal=ð
ra'=r
zayn=z
seen=s or ʃ (it did vary)
sheen=ç
tsad=sˤ
dad=ɬˤ
ta'=tˤ
dha'=ðˤ
ayin=ʕ
ghayin=ʁ
fa'=f
qaf=q
kaf=k
lam=l
meem=m
nun=n
ha'=h
waw=w
ya'= j

*classical pronunciation =/= modern pronunciation. the ta' marbutah was either pronunced /h/ or /t/

[gamegeek2]

The crossed h makes the same sound as Arabic Ha (the one that's like the Jim and Kha, the guttural one). The normal one is like the H in english. I'm learning Arabic right now, have the alphabet pretty much down and am just starting to learn speaking it...

kw is like Latin qu. Someone translate Howis 'Ekwoseskwe into Latin, please.

[gamegeek2]

Here's another fable, The King and the God (Reks deiwos-kwe)

Proto-Indo-European

To rēks 'est. So-kwe ngntos 'est. Sūnum-kwe wlnet so gʰuterom prsket "Sūnus moi gnjotām!" Gʰutḗr nu rēgom wewkwet: "Ewekʰo gʰi deiwom Wérunom." Upo pro rēks-kwe djēm sesore djēm-kwe ewekʰto. "Kludʰi me, pater Wérune!" So nu kmta deiwos kāt. "Kwod wlnesi?" "Wlnemi sūnum." "Tod éstu," wewkwet leukos deiwos. Rēkos potni gʰi sūnum gegone.

Proto-Indo-Iranian

Ta rāgs āst. Sa-ka ajātás āst, sū́num-ka ávr̥nat sa gʰutrám̥ ápr̥skat “Sūnus mai gnjatām!” Gʰutār nu rāgam avaukat: “Avagʰe gʰi dēvam Varu̥nam.” Upa pra rāgs-ka dēvam sásara dēvam-ka ávagʰta. “Srudʰí ma, pitár Váru̥ne!" Sa nu káta dēvas gāt. “Kad vr̥nasi?” “Vr̥nami sū́num”. “Tat éstu," ávaukat rauķás dḗvas. Rāgas patnī gʰi sū́num gágana.

Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son. He asked his priest: "May a son be born to me!" The priest said to the king: "Pray to the god Werunos". The king approached the god Werunos to pray now to the god. "Hear me, father Werunos!" The god Werunos came down from heaven. "What do you want?" "I want a son." "Let this be so", said the bright god Werunos. The king's lady bore a son.

[Ibrahim]

The crossed h makes the same sound as Arabic Ha (the one that's like the Jim and Kha, the guttural one). The normal one is like the H in english. I'm learning Arabic right now, have the alphabet pretty much down and am just starting to learn speaking it...

kw is like Latin qu. Someone translate Howis 'Ekwoseskwe into Latin, please.

that is correct (basically what I said)

and thanks for clarifying the kw thingy.

[Elmetiacos]

All the consonants with the little w's are "labialised" consonants, meaning that you pronounce them at the same time as rounding your lips.

[gamegeek2]

Howis*, kwesio wulneħ* ne 'est, 'ekwoms* speket, 'oinom* krhum wogʰom wegʰontm, hoinom-kwe*
megehm* bʰerom, hoinom-kwe dʰgʰmonm* 'o'ku bʰerontm*. Howis nu 'ekwobʰjos wewkwet: "Kard* moi* ħegʰnutoi, 'ekwoms ħegontm* wi'rom widntei*." 'ekwōses tu wewkwont: "Kludʰi, howi, kardes ħegʰuntoi nsmei* widntbʰjos: ħner, poris, howjom-r wulneħm swebʰi* kʰermom westrom kwrneuti. Howjom-kwe wulneħ ne 'esti." To kekluwos howis ħegrom bʰuget.

The words with asterisks have Latin counterparts that are cognates.

howis - ovis
widntei - vidunt
wulneħ - laneus
'ekwos - equus
'oinom - unum
krhum - carrus
wegʰont - vehunt
kwe - que
megehm - magnum
kard - cor
moi - meus
dʰgʰmonm - homo
bʰeront - ferrunt (ferrēre)
ħegont - agunt (agēre)
nsmei - nos
swebʰi - suus

[KingOfTheIsles]

Fascinating. I add:

war>crīgā(gave german 'krieg' and danish 'krig')
(gave -possibly- 'cri' and 'crier', French "shout", noun and verb)
fight>skermō(gave the word 'skirmish')
die>dhewə (gave Deyja(old norse))
(and this word Deyja -possibly- gave 'déjà', French "already")
kill>colḗjō (nothing to explain here)
(gave -possibly- colère, French "anger")
destroy>dheukō (here neither...)
(gave -possibly- dragon, if you pronounce the "h" like in German)

Are you claiming these etymologies to be true, or is this just conjecture? Several are almost certainly completely false, and the rest seem dubious.

For example on Goidelic, which is indeed a form of Celt, what date would one impose for a P-shift?

I don't get this question. Seeing as Irish is Q-Celtic, the proto-celtic labiovelar became a plain velar sound, rather than a labial sound, as in Gaulish and Brythonic. So there was never a P-shift in Goidelic.

Linear B Greek has the Kw sound intact, in Ancient Greek it's become P.

This, presumably, accounts for the difference between the Ancient Greek hippos and the Latin equus? It is interesting that the labiovelar stop>labial stop shift seemingly occurred in what appeared to be separate IE families. I had always believed this to be unique to P-Celtic, but after a little research it also appears to have happened in Oscan as well as Greek.

As a side note, how exactly do you reconstruct the syntax and morphology of proto-gemanic? (I assume that this is what is used for the Sweboz) Is it just a case of making educated guesses based on the current syntax in Germanic languages? Was there even a fixed word order? (SOV would have been my guess)

[Elmetiacos]

This, presumably, accounts for the difference between the Ancient Greek hippos and the Latin equus? It is interesting that the labiovelar stop>labial stop shift seemingly occurred in what appeared to be separate IE families. I had always believed this to be unique to P-Celtic, but after a little research it also appears to have happened in Oscan as well as Greek.

As a side note, how exactly do you reconstruct the syntax and morphology of proto-gemanic? (I assume that this is what is used for the Sweboz) Is it just a case of making educated guesses based on the current syntax in Germanic languages? Was there even a fixed word order? (SOV would have been my guess)

Latin equus is indeed cognate with Greek hippos, both from PIE *H1ek'wo-. There are, as you say, what might be called P and Q Italic (although some people would kick Latin and its closest relative, Faliscan, out of the Italic family) Ligurian is another dead language that seems to have had the kw > p shift and some Lusitanian words like praisom, praesondo and pumpi are good candidates to be derived from PIE kw- initials, suggesting it had done the same - unlike its Celtiberian neighbour.

You'll have to talk to Blitzkrieg80 about the Germanic stuff.