Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[Elmetiacos]

No, it's based on the assumption that they did not use the word before the Vikings came and they started using it when they did. A sack wasn't a new concept at that time, and still a new word was taken in for it.

So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?

[bovi]

So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?

Quite the opposite. I argue that despite that there was a great familiarity with a thing, be it a pig or a sack, people can take into their language another word for it. My argument is that in Britain, they certainly had bags, but didn't call them bags until there came other people who called them such. Similarly, Portugal had pigs and could start calling them something else than they used to, when other people came who used that new word.

[Cartaphilus]

In fact in Lusitanian language pig is "porcom", that it is very similar to the latin "porcum".

The main theory about the origin of that language relates it to the celtic family, but other theory (prof. Villar et alia) relates it to italian languages. For now, we don't have enough texts to decide the question.

[Elmetiacos]

Borrowing words for domestic animals is something not done, unless the language community in question didn't have that animal in the first place, an acknowledged fact used to assess the lifestyles of historical peoples. This isn't me saying this, it's generally recognised. If you say PORCOM is borrowed from Latin, you'll need a very good reason for saying it.

There are people out there who try and make Lusitanian a Celtic language, and their usual argument is that it must be a dialect of Celtic where PIE P never disappeared at all or a dialect of Celtic where the shift stopped halfway and P should be read as Φ. They like to point out that there are Celtic placenames and tribal names in the Lusitani territory. To me, this suggests that you have a Celtic or Celticised ruling class while the rest of the population speaks an "Old European" language, so that Lusitanian is in the same position as English after the Norman Conquest and doesn't need to be squeezed into the Celtic family.

[bovi]

That is different then. I have not the expertise in the area to argue against the position that specifically domestic animals never have new names imported. I cannot recall any example to the contrary at least. I was questioning the statement that something "as familiar as a pig" couldn't get a new name, which there are examples against.

[Elmetiacos]

Villar opposes classifying Lusitanian as Celtic, while Untermann is the main Celticist.

Grab a pdf of K T Witczak's 1999 essay on Lusitanian and the two names Laebo and Reve specifically here: http://emerita.revistas.csic.es/inde...wnload/185/186. It seems to come down firmly in the anti-Celtic Lusitanian camp. There's some more in E-Keltoi vol. 6.

[Cartaphilus]

In spanish wikipedia we can find this map.


I don't know if Villar is right or wrong about the lusitanian question, but I strongly recommend his job "Los indoeuropeos y los orígenes de Europa" (the indo-european and the origins of Europe).
If there's someone that speaks spanish here, this book is a "must".
It's edited by the prestigious Editorial Gredos.
I don't know if it is translated to other languages.
AWESOME BOOK.

[Viking_Wårlord]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...750BC-1AD).png
This is how the first Germanic dialects evolved,eventually,these dialects reached certain places by the tribes' neverlasting migrations....

And talking about migration...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...rwanderung.jpg

These migrations started the beginning of what we could now call 'european culture' though dna tests did not follow...as we can see,British people are more danish than anglo-saxon(the difference is still minimal though).
Remember that the Germanic tribes did not invade Rome because they were greedy but because they were pushed by the Huns invading from the east and kept aside by the roman 'limes'(wall).
It is then normal to see them 'burst' on all territories!

[blitzkrieg80]

The germanic words aren't based on 'nothing at all', you based it on the swabian and Frisian dialects wich are both part of the western and northern branches of Germanic languages.

This is wrong is so many ways. You simply don't know what you're talking about... or do you care to name the title of the pieces you're talking about... what manuscript? where is 'Frisian' coming from in reference to EB, anyways? Tellos and Tank are the closest thing to Frisian we've been using as resources [no offense guys, i mean Friesland as a whole not any particular modern geography]

Pre-Germanic Indo-European [timeline at EB start] has nothing to do with Old Frisian [400-1200CE] or Old High German [400-830CE] dialects other than being related through Germanic (like English), both being part of the Northwest [200-400CE], then West Germanic dialect family... quite a bit different than 270BCE!

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

[Megas Methuselah]

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

Which is one reason as to why EB is so great. It's spectacular effort on linguistic details never ceases to amaze me.

[Viking_Wårlord]

This is wrong is so many ways. You simply don't know what you're talking about... or do you care to name the title of the pieces you're talking about... what manuscript? where is 'Frisian' coming from in reference to EB, anyways? Tellos and Tank are the closest thing to Frisian we've been using as resources [no offense guys, i mean Friesland as a whole not any particular modern geography]

Pre-Germanic Indo-European [timeline at EB start] has nothing to do with Old Frisian [400-1200CE] or Old High German [400-830CE] dialects other than being related through Germanic (like English), both being part of the Northwest [200-400CE], then West Germanic dialect family... quite a bit different than 270BCE!

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

False once more,
I'm talking about Pre Roman Frisian,that can gave birth to Swabian,Jutish,Saxon and of course old frisian dialects.
Pre Roman Frisian has been studied as one of the oldest indo-european languages with lithuanian...
I know co's I've been working on it lately!

Old frisian evoluated as New migrations of eastern Germanic tribes entered the Netherlandic area...
These eastern tribes entered in contact with early to wich they gave words such as Флагa(Flaga=flag)
or братство(Brastvo=brotherhood)...

[blitzkrieg80]

Which is one reason as to why EB is so great. It's spectacular effort on linguistic details never ceases to amaze me.

we appreciate the comment. of course there are so many gifted members in non-Germanic specialties that I am likewise amazed all the time
__________________

Viking_Warlord, care to offer any evidence other than the fantastic claims made just now with no reference, which isn't even listed anywhere in the field of study, nonetheless on the unsolicited OT links you posted from Wikipedia? you still haven't supplied a single scrap of evidence of what you're talking about other than some speculation on Dutch having retention of ancient Germanic elements... which end up being IE elements... I agree that Dutch is a very interesting language and so are its parent familial dialects, for the same reasons.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting 'Frisian' existed as the master-language of Lowland Germany / Netherlands (neglecting the standardized designation of 'West Germanic') but even so, earlier than Late Antiquity and during Classical times?

Are you referring to 'Old Franconian' or postulated term 'Ingaevonic' aka Anglo-Frisian? Again, what is your point and what is your evidence?

False once more,

what do you mean by 'false once more' - care to explain this? you imply an occasion beyond the recent post.

FYI - I am hardly 'false' when I know where I got my material. do you honestly think you know what sources I used better than I? If you want to prove this wrong, give us some literary evidence that I unknowingly used information from an Old Franconian or Old Frisian manuscript... that would be helpful in making such a point.

[blitzkrieg80]

I know co's I've been working on it lately!

disagreement aside - this sounds very interesting. it would be awesome to hear what work you've been doing in such a lesser known but important field, so please share sometime... as a separate item, since i don't expect a good mood to come from the other discussion.

[Ayce]

Just stopping by to say hi after a an absence (since August).
For the Getai, using either Latin or Greek is recommended, however, and I know this isn't likely be accepted because it isn't official, after looking through Dan Romalo's analysis of the largely neglected Sinaia lead tablets (found here), I am convinced that they are not forgeries as initially supposed (they show a natural evolving language, and the method of production fits the time period), actually I think they were classified as forgeries because it seemed too good to be true. I have managed to reconstruct more than half of the building names, using the vocabulary and basic grammar (this, could be „Skyteo do Ǧino”, instead of „Skyteo do Oto” there), but haven't been able to do anything about troops, because the terms used when referring to armies is too general (no soldier's descriptions), my recommendations for „getification” being Mezenai -> Mezeni (sg. Mezeno/Mezena, pl. Mezeni)*, Nobali(noble)/Dogyi(hat-wearers) for Tarabostes, and Boičeri for Ktistai, again using basic grammar.
*I'd also put Komatai -> Komati, but in the texts, the full term only appears in another context (it does appear as a single word though). It would come from Ko + Mato meaning „with mastery”, aka free people that have a job qualification (be it blacksmith, warrior, carpenter, or whatever).

[Elmetiacos]

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

Huh? What? I never said it was easy, so lose the quotation marks - all I said was that reconstruction of a Germanic language for the Suebi is easier than one for the Lusitani or for Daco-Thracian, because those are languages with no living descendants!

[Viking_Wårlord]

we appreciate the comment. of course there are so many gifted members in non-Germanic specialties that I am likewise amazed all the time
__________________

Viking_Warlord, care to offer any evidence other than the fantastic claims made just now with no reference, which isn't even listed anywhere in the field of study, nonetheless on the unsolicited OT links you posted from Wikipedia? you still haven't supplied a single scrap of evidence of what you're talking about other than some speculation on Dutch having retention of ancient Germanic elements... which end up being IE elements... I agree that Dutch is a very interesting language and so are its parent familial dialects, for the same reasons.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting 'Frisian' existed as the master-language of Lowland Germany / Netherlands (neglecting the standardized designation of 'West Germanic') but even so, earlier than Late Antiquity and during Classical times?

Are you referring to 'Old Franconian' or postulated term 'Ingaevonic' aka Anglo-Frisian? Again, what is your point and what is your evidence?


what do you mean by 'false once more' - care to explain this? you imply an occasion beyond the recent post.

FYI - I am hardly 'false' when I know where I got my material. do you honestly think you know what sources I used better than I? If you want to prove this wrong, give us some literary evidence that I unknowingly used information from an Old Franconian or Old Frisian manuscript... that would be helpful in making such a point.

We both know that Frankish and angl-frisian are west Germanic right?
Now,of all the languages that descend from the western Germanic dialects,Frisian is the one that has the less evolved(older than Icelandic) hence you could speak Old english to a Frisian and he would understand(it has been prooven by 'Mongrel Nation' a BBC T.V program).
Hence we concluded that this is the most reliable of all languages to study proto-Germanic,most of the names that figure in E.B are actually of Old frisian origin(wich is barely the same)....
Geddit?
By the way,I like arguing with you and as I see you're interested in my work(ironic) here's a few fonts you could use...
http://www.rune-fonts.co.uk/fontlist.php

I hope you'll make good use of them?
And if you don't know how to install them...Just ask me!

[Viking_Wårlord]

disagreement aside - this sounds very interesting. it would be awesome to hear what work you've been doing in such a lesser known but important field, so please share sometime... as a separate item, since i don't expect a good mood to come from the other discussion.

Well, I've been making a B.I.G project last year that was to search for similarities in all indo-european languages and so it bought me to learn new languages(as russian and Hindi)...Through my studies I've found Lithuanian to be the closest to Hindi hence more 'ancient' than any other indo-european language...
As my speciality is Germanic languages(I think you've guessed that I'm Danish),I wanted to compare ALL actual and ancient dialects...I've found surprising things really,for example,Gothic(wich is a dead language) had a lot of remnants of Biblic hebrew(wich can be explained by the Goths having converted to Arianism)!
Pre-Roman Frisian was the most oldest of all,so old that we're still speculating on the meaning of some words coming from it!
How did I find out?
By comparing Pre-roman Frisian(or Proto-Germanic if you like) to Lithuanian and to Hindi(wich are the most ancient indo-european languages).

[blitzkrieg80]

i see what the confusion lies in... you're calling / equating West Germanic or even Anglo-Frisian the same as Proto-Germanic, despite accepted usage? they are subfamilies, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. what does make a lot of sense is otherwise Proto-Germanic seems to include two dialects (Northwest and East) which are becoming divergent from the beginning on and is more or less not very useful as a designation, so I find it very interesting that you are instead calling Proto-Germanic to be Northwest Germanic with the East as an anomoly, since that IS a useful designation... that is very unique, I think, and does show some keen understanding of the development of Germanic language, because as soon as Germanic Word Stress Change begins in the East Germanic dialects, so does Proto-Germanic then become less and less the small time-frame identity it once had, which really points to Proto-Germanic not really being worth identifying as a 'language.' FTY, for those who don't know: the Germanic Word Stress Change (versus the previous Indo-European word stress system) is so important because it causes so many different changes between Northwest and East Germanic in conjunction with Verner's Law, First Umlaut, and Loss of a Mora in Unstressed Word-Final Syllables.

that is actually why I don't use the term Proto-Germanic... Pre-Germanic Indo-European, because Lithuanian and others come from the same IE source which is also why I use IE combined with earliest evidence of Germanic...

but your other statement is a little boggling:

most of the names that figure in E.B are actually of Old frisian origin

the language of EB's Swēbōzez, naming and terminology, ect. and thus my reconstructions (you understand that I am the author of all the most recent Germanic naming except the map?) use a lot of Gothic too, so I don't know why you think it's exclusively based in Northwest Germanic, other than recognizing stuff you've worked with? Nonetheless, your attitude of educating me in said concepts, which I've obviously mastered to the degree that I have, is a little amusing. I certainly don't mind talking about it, it is very interesting and enjoyable to discuss language, especially for me Germanic and Indo-European, but you're not talking to a 'fan' if you didn't know.

Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language I would actually argue that Anglo-Frisian and the Low Germans who stayed near their homeland are more Germanic than migrant mountainmen (oops, I didn't say that). all Germanic speakers are the same, as in awesome, and interesting

thanks for the link to the fonts, i have a good one Yggdrasil, but i can always use more like that BTW, i have tatoos of runes even, hehe, mainland German style (stylistically preferred at the time). I am quite proud of that rather than Celtic tribal, random Asian characters or barcode-like tatoos off the wall or book that makes me just slightly different than everybody else's carbon copy. one says 'Leben ist Lieben' (a philosophy of duality and seeing the light within darkness) and one has my initials.

is your project going to be published or filmed, or is it mostly hobby? or other?

[Viking_Wårlord]

i see what the confusion lies in... you're calling / equating West Germanic or even Anglo-Frisian the same as Proto-Germanic, despite accepted usage? they are subfamilies, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. what does make a lot of sense is otherwise Proto-Germanic seems to include two dialects (Northwest and East) which are becoming divergent from the beginning on and is more or less not very useful as a designation, so I find it very interesting that you are instead calling Proto-Germanic to be Northwest Germanic with the East as an anomoly, since that IS a useful designation... that is very unique, I think, and does show some keen understanding of the development of Germanic language, because as soon as Germanic Word Stress Change begins in the East Germanic dialects, so does Proto-Germanic then become less and less the small time-frame identity it once had, which really points to Proto-Germanic not really being worth identifying as a 'language.' FTY, for those who don't know: the Germanic Word Stress Change (versus the previous Indo-European word stress system) is so important because it causes so many different changes between Northwest and East Germanic in conjunction with Verner's Law, First Umlaut, and Loss of a Mora in Unstressed Word-Final Syllables.

that is actually why I don't use the term Proto-Germanic... Pre-Germanic Indo-European, because Lithuanian and others come from the same IE source which is also why I use IE combined with earliest evidence of Germanic...

but your other statement is a little boggling:

the language of EB's Swēbōzez, naming and terminology, ect. and thus my reconstructions (you understand that I am the author of all the most recent Germanic naming except the map?) use a lot of Gothic too, so I don't know why you think it's exclusively based in Northwest Germanic, other than recognizing stuff you've worked with? Nonetheless, your attitude of educating me in said concepts, which I've obviously mastered to the degree that I have, is a little amusing. I certainly don't mind talking about it, it is very interesting and enjoyable to discuss language, especially for me Germanic and Indo-European, but you're not talking to a 'fan' if you didn't know.

Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language I would actually argue that Anglo-Frisian and the Low Germans who stayed near their homeland are more Germanic than migrant mountainmen (oops, I didn't say that). all Germanic speakers are the same, as in awesome, and interesting

thanks for the link to the fonts, i have a good one Yggdrasil, but i can always use more like that BTW, i have tatoos of runes even, hehe, mainland German style (stylistically preferred at the time). I am quite proud of that rather than Celtic tribal, random Asian characters or barcode-like tatoos off the wall or book that makes me just slightly different than everybody else's carbon copy. one says 'Leben ist Lieben' (a philosophy of duality and seeing the light within darkness) and one has my initials.

is your project going to be published or filmed, or is it mostly hobby? or other?

Well,for what's of my project,I made it as a hobby,but you just gave me an idea...maybe I'll make a video about it on youtube,maybe I'll do a book about it or even a dictionnary!Who knows?

But anyway,I appreciate talking with you,you finally understand that pre-Roman frisian stands for Proto-Germanic.

I didn't know that you did the names in EB,though you did a good job...though there's a slight problem,when you annex a settlement,one of the option includes 'Þrældömi' actually meaning 'slavery' though Germanic tribes didn't use slavery until the Barbarian invasion(and E.B is way before that era).
So I'm only asking...why did you put this more than particular word?
I could also talk about it's etymology...it comes from 'Þråll' meaning slave(wich was the most terrible insult for any Germanic tribesman!) and dömi...that has no REAL english translation.

Second thing that attracts my attention...

"Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language"

I didn't really get that but anyway...are you working on EB2?
If yes...I would like to know when it's planned to be released,do you even have a release date???

Wæss Hæl

[blitzkrieg80]

you should write a book or do a documentary or something, i would read/watch it i look forward to future, interesting Germanic discussions of whatever topics and threads

yes, I am heading the Swēbōzez team for EB2, although not as active as one would hope, since I have other concerns currently. The Pre-Germanic Voice Mod still needs time for recording to be finished... hopefully will have an install for everybody for 1.2 before EB2. Come on now, we're not spilling any beans on a release date... certainly not done yet.

that is peculiar... I never put 'thrall' anywhere... in fact, i didn't know you could change the options for CONQUER / ENSLAVE ,ect.... do you use a different language version for RTW than English? is it possible that this aspects was missed by me concerning things that are changeable... I am guessing it is like the map and also the names of characters which had to be left to the original before me... what I am wondering now is what .txt that information is contained in, so i can check to see if that is something i never knew about.

btw, i would use 'theow' over 'thrall' and even then, 'sevant' doesn't nec. imply slavery- i agree, so good comment

my comment on the 'nationalism' is just because I assumed Germans would hate me for being American and I have spoken with Germans who thought I could never do work on Proto-Germanic and such simply because I'm an American... and believe me, I can understand why one would have doubt in Amercians researching the Old World too (I know some of the best books are only in German, French, ect. and the collections are simply not as easily available as in Europe- i have been lucky though and have imported some good books)... to my delightful surprise, most Germans appreciate that I don't portray the Germanic peoples as backward cavemen, so all you nice and thoughtful fans (whoever you are out there) are great to have as a fan-base, esp. in a Romano-Centric world - thanks all! it's also possible nobody knows enough to comment too, but just the same, I am surprised at how cool Europeans have been concerning this subject, which one would think might have some spark-flying potential

[ziegenpeter]

Oh, this thread is getting more and more interesting...

I didn't know that you did the names in EB,though you did a good job...though there's a slight problem,when you annex a settlement,one of the option includes 'Þrældömi' actually meaning 'slavery' though Germanic tribes didn't use slavery until the Barbarian invasion(and E.B is way before that era).
So I'm only asking...why did you put this more than particular word?
I could also talk about it's etymology...it comes from 'Þråll' meaning slave(wich was the most terrible insult for any Germanic tribesman!) and dömi...that has no REAL english translation.

I'd say its a suffix discribing the concept witch links all the individaul parts of this concept and what they have in common. Like "-hood" in "brotherhood" or "-ry" in "slavery".

I wonder if it has a common etymology with "dom", which I know from swedish, meaning "arbitration".

[Viking_Wårlord]

Oh, this thread is getting more and more interesting...


I'd say its a suffix discribing the concept witch links all the individaul parts of this concept and what they have in common. Like "-hood" in "brotherhood" or "-ry" in "slavery".

I wonder if it has a common etymology with "dom", which I know from swedish, meaning "arbitration".

Yeah,but -ry doesn't give a valuable translation in english,that's what I think,and by the way,it is related with the swedish dom...

[ziegenpeter]

Oh, cool! Could you be so kind and give me a brief overview of its etymological developpement?
Unfortunatly, I don't posess a swedish etymological dictionairy...

[Cartaphilus]

Gothic(wich is a dead language) had a lot of remnants of Biblic hebrew(wich can be explained by the Goths having converted to Arianism)!

And because the gothic is mainly known through "The Bible of Ulfilas".

[Elmetiacos]

This Swedish word is presumably cognate with the English "doom" - which used to mean "judgement" until the Normans exported the French word. I believe on the Isle of Man a judge is still called a Doomster, or something like that.

[MeinPanzer]

Thralldom is still a word in English meaning servitude or slavery. The suffix -dom comes from OE dōm and "refers to domain (kingdom), collection of persons (officialdom), rank or station (earldom), or general condition (freedom)."

[SpawnOfEbil]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

[Ibrahim]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

you sure malik is even indoeuropean?

unless two language groups (indo-Iranian and semetic), evolved the same word seperately.

[SpawnOfEbil]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

[Ibrahim]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.