Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[Kuningaz]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...

[Gleemonex]

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

[Ibrahim]

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all. (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache

[ziegenpeter]

I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben?

Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

[Elmetiacos]

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all. (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache

Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

[Kuningaz]

Hm interesting, any books you would recommend me to read about germanic etymology?

[Cartaphilus]

Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Oh, cool! Could you be so kind and give me a brief overview of its etymological developpement?
Unfortunatly, I don't posess a swedish etymological dictionairy...

IT COMOES FROM Dómi in old norse...simple as that!

[Viking_Wårlord]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...

Yes,the Swêboz came from the actual Swabian region but it's descendants are the Portuguese...

[ziegenpeter]

IT COMOES FROM Dómi in old norse

Meaning...?

@Kuningaz: Wait till I got home and I give you some titles... oh wait whats your mother tongue?

[Viking_Wårlord]

Meaning...?

@Kuningaz: Wait till I got home and I give you some titles... oh wait whats your mother tongue?

It can mean 'prevailance'(for example,heathendom=holyness' prevailance) but can also mean 'time'...
My mother tongue is Danish...

[Viking_Wårlord]

Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

False,it comes from Baal the old semitic Baal(מלך) that also gave the Carthaginian god Baal-saphôôn.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...

The protuguese are the actual descendants of the Swêboz

[ziegenpeter]

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...

Why do you introduce your post by "not exactly", if you don't contradict me?
I was just saying that the name(!) has its origin from sweboz but, to quote myself,

this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

Sorry but my dictionary didn't give me a translation for prevailance, only for prevail, so I assume its the corresponding noun.
SO we have "prevailance" as a meaning, which is IMHO a notion that can be found in the suffix "-dom"
we have "jugement" and "time"... hmm and you say the meanings in old norse are "prevailance" or "time", right? I wonder where the jugement is coming from...

Please use the "Edit" button.

[Kuningaz]

Mother tongue is (Austrian) German

[blitzkrieg80]

I agree with Ziegenpeter- Viking_Warlord, I had a similar reaction in that you come across as unnecessarily antagonistic, but I at least prompted such a response toward me by saying you were not correct and while it's your right to have whatever attitude you want, don't expect to people to take that attitude or appreciate it. The Indo-European root *sue- rather ensures that there is no exclusiveness to those who call themselves 'Swabbian', meaning "one's own" as you know, although you are correct in that the later Migration Period Germanic tribes assume the identity of Suebi even though they were not directly related to Arminius' confederation or that named by Tacitus.

[edit] I just realized that maybe there is a language issue going on- in English, 'related' is not necessarily by blood, so Ziegenpeter was referring to the 'name' which is indeed related... yet it is also true there is no evidence genetically linking the original Suebi with the later Suebi (and their territory is vastly different between classical references), although there is no way to verify ethnicity or genetics, so it's a rather moot point in that specific sense.

The Portuguese are not 'the Suebi'. Tribes under the identity of the Suebi did invade, but so did Celtiberians and Romans, while retaining non-Indo-European elements, yet I would not say they are 'this' or 'that', but you probably are just referring to the best known Suebi of Late Antiquity, so that is correct in that very limited sense.


* For those curious on -dōm / 'doom' - it is related to 'deem' and 'do':

A Handbook of Germanic Etymology by Vladimir Orel :



Altenglisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch von F. Holthausen :



Language and history in the early Germanic world by D.H. Green
(warning- large size) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Someone had asked about a good book to read on this kind of thing, so there is an answer for ya (DH Green)

I believe on the Isle of Man a judge is still called a Doomster, or something like that.

nice fact, Elmetiacos - i didn't know that - very interesting

[MeinPanzer]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

Just to answer this: almost all reconstructions of ancient steppe languages are AFAIK based on Ossetian with a input from epigraphy and Indo-European cognates.

[ziegenpeter]

Mother tongue is (Austrian) German

Well great, because I only know german books about this.

@Blitzkrieg: Thanks for your clarification and the Links/pics.

[Cartaphilus]

False,it comes from Baal the old semitic Baal(מלך) that also gave the Carthaginian god Baal-saphôôn.

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

[Ibrahim]

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

I just came back from a reading, and I confirm yor source, Cartaphilus.

[Viking_Wårlord]

I agree with Ziegenpeter- Viking_Warlord, I had a similar reaction in that you come across as unnecessarily antagonistic, but I at least prompted such a response toward me by saying you were not correct and while it's your right to have whatever attitude you want, don't expect to people to take that attitude or appreciate it. The Indo-European root *sue- rather ensures that there is no exclusiveness to those who call themselves 'Swabbian', meaning "one's own" as you know, although you are correct in that the later Migration Period Germanic tribes assume the identity of Suebi even though they were not directly related to Arminius' confederation or that named by Tacitus.

[edit] I just realized that maybe there is a language issue going on- in English, 'related' is not necessarily by blood, so Ziegenpeter was referring to the 'name' which is indeed related... yet it is also true there is no evidence genetically linking the original Suebi with the later Suebi (and their territory is vastly different between classical references), although there is no way to verify ethnicity or genetics, so it's a rather moot point in that specific sense.

The Portuguese are not 'the Suebi'. Tribes under the identity of the Suebi did invade, but so did Celtiberians and Romans, while retaining non-Indo-European elements, yet I would not say they are 'this' or 'that', but you probably are just referring to the best known Suebi of Late Antiquity, so that is correct in that very limited sense.


* For those curious on -dōm / 'doom' - it is related to 'deem' and 'do':

A Handbook of Germanic Etymology by Vladimir Orel :



Altenglisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch von F. Holthausen :



Language and history in the early Germanic world by D.H. Green
(warning- large size) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Someone had asked about a good book to read on this kind of thing, so there is an answer for ya (DH Green)


nice fact, Elmetiacos - i didn't know that - very interesting

Though the DNA tests performed on the portuguese showed the that their Y chromosome was of Germanic origin,assuming that it was different if we compared it to Spanish Y chromosome,it was concluded that the Portuguese were the actual descendants of the Swêboz and for the Spanish,madrilenes and Iberians were majoritarily wisigothic(though they represented some Basque and Celitc elements).

Thanks for bringing another translation of domi but as I said, I don't think it has an exact translation as different dialects used it to describe different things...its meaning also changed throughout time,hence Vikings used it to describe 'do'...though it was also used by Swedish Varanguians to describe a home(!)...

[Viking_Wårlord]

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

I though you were talking about the word meaning 'master',not 'king'!
Sorry,my mistake,you're right.

[Cartaphilus]

I though you were talking about the word meaning 'master',not 'king'!
Sorry,my mistake,you're right.

No problem, man, you were right with Baal of course, he's the "Lord", the "Master"...

[ziegenpeter]

Here we go Kuningaz: As a good introduction I'd advice you to read
Wilhelm Schmidt: Geschichte der deutschen Sprache
Astrid Stedje: Deutsche Sprache gestern und heute

[Kuningaz]

Ok thanks, once I'm back in Austria I'll buy them

[Elmetiacos]

The thread is not dead, only stunned. Since it all started with some of us pointing out how hard it would be to reconstruct Dacian and/or Thracian, here are some interesting snippets.
1. The (Latinised) Getic personal name Zalmodegicus: look at the second element in the name. Surely it must be a cognate of Celtic *dexs- which appears in Lugudeccas on an Ogham stone "of the servant of Lugh" - that means Zalmodegicus is "servant of Zalmoxis".
2. Did Daco-Thracian turn Indo-European M into B? Bassaris is a Greek word for the fox skin worn by Dionysos which doesn't seem to have an etymology in Greek. Bassareus is also supposed to have been the Thracian version of the god. Bendis was the Thracian moon goddess. Both these make sense as PIE roots if we turn the Bs into Ms: *moiso- meaning the hide of an animal and *meh1ns- meaning the moon...

EDIT: bah - Duridanov's Thracian vocabulary (http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_5.html) is full of words that kept the M as M...

[Subotan]

bredas ‘pasture-ground’
dentu- ‘clan, tribe’
desa(s), disa(s) ‘deity, god’
ermas ‘fierce, mad’
esvas (ezvas) ‘horse’
mezēna ‘a horseman
skaplis "axe"
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’
taru- ‘spear’

These look particularly useful to us. But I laughed out loud when I saw

stra (from an earlier *strava) ‘ torrent’

Hehe, file-sharing Dacians...

[Elmetiacos]

I'm now getting a bit sceptical about that list and Duridanov's determination to link Thracian to Baltic and Slavonic... which just happened to have been done by a Bulgarian in the middle of the Cold War. We already know how politics could muddy the waters in Romania and Albania at this time.

[Ayce]

Elmetiacos: That would be the case if the name for the Getic god is Zalmoxis, not Zamolxis. And this is still an issue.
And I wouldn't say Daco-Thracian, for all we know, there could have been important differences between the two.
On post 44 I tried to start a small discussion based on the usually ignored Sinaia tablets, but everyone here was too busy with germanic languages.
Looking over that link, and quickly crosschecking what words appear in both places, I do see correlations, but also differences, mostly in form. Ex:
-god - T: Desa/Disa/Zi, D: Dio/Zei(only once)/Za prefix for Za-Boly
-T: ut (river), D: ut (river bed)
-T: stra (current, torrent), D: Streo (hydronym, possibly the current Strei, originating in „torrent”)
-T: esvas (horse), D: eskoe (horses/studs), ekyo (the horses)
-Differences: Sar is used for water in all the Sinaia plates, never anything relating to aqva, apa.
Interestingly in the texts, the form for the supreme god of the Dacians is Zamolxo.
Of course the language on the tablets is supposed to be be the central dialect of the 1st century AD state, so it would have evolved somewhat from the 270 BC dialects. I did however change some of the text files in RB 1.2 to use what I have managed to translate using Romalo's book.

[Elmetiacos]

The consensus is that the Sinaia plates are forgeries, and I have to agree with that. Apart from the language being strange, and there being what seems to be a fully developed logographic writing system appearing out of nowhere (with what look like modern mathematical signs accompanying them?) The heads look as if copied straight from the Turda coins and the little robed people stuck in the middle of the writing look more like something taken from the Aztec or Maya Codices than anything from the time and place they are supposed to belong to.