Greek Fire...

[Cute Wolf]

The Byzantines in Crusadder have Greek Flamethrowers... I just curious to ask some of you:
(Soory for a bit scientific)

1. When the greek fire has invented?
2. What about its chemichal composition?
3. If it was invented arround 300 - 100 BC, will you add them in EBII? it was my favourite decimating weapons after the naffatuns...

Thanks...

[gontram]

the first documented use of greek fire was in 513 AD, so dont think thas it is going to be included in EB 2. Certain is that it was a mixture of ingradients that made fire in the presence of water. Sustained probably from e.g. phosphorus, saltpeter, sulfur...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Those flamethrower guys in Kingdoms almost made my head explode. There will be no flamethrowers in EB2!

[Cute Wolf]

@gontram
Phosphorous actually are stored underwater... they just can't burn in any sustaining rates, because the P2O5 formed by phosporus burning will be hydrolized with water to form H3PO4 which is good thermal absorber... Saltpeter are nitrates of alkali metals, and M-NO3 are ionic ones, they will be ionized in waters, so they can't burn... Sulphur is probably right, but I think it must be used in conjunction with some organic molecules (eq alkanes, aromatics, or heavy-fraction alcohols).... anyone has the exact composition?

@Marcus
That guy, made your head explode? oh Come on, they can only fire twice, and after that, they are easy pickings... but their two shots can take all Marshall of the Templars.... it was a sad story to not see the best-graphical projectiles in Kingdom, didn't make it in EB II...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Units like the Byzantine flamethrower is what made me never unwrap the plastic from my kingdom's box. Also, I don't know why, but I keep laughing when ever I see Cute Wolf Post because he is still a junior member with 82 posts.

[desert]

There is no exact composition. No one knows.

[Pontius Pilate]

A. greek fire is not in the time frame, it is mainly a Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) weapon

B. greek fire was mainly used on ships and in naval battles or by siege weapons

C. the flamethrower units in MTW2 have questionably historical authenticity

[Cute Wolf]

@ Pontius Pilate
For your C answer, I feel soo sad to learn if that the best Byzantium units in Crussaders is just a Fantasy units... but at least I now read so interesting articles about Greek cannon, made by Archimides

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/CatapultTypes.htm

Could the EB II had the Archimidean Steam cannon units for Syrakousai or Koinon? it can made into reform units such as "Archimidean Reform" and the Prerequisite is built the highest Academic structure in Syrakousai...

[oudysseos]

There was a Mythbusters episode where they tried to build an Archimedes Steam Cannon based on the drawings of Leonardo Da Vinci. Totally busted. Using modern materials and technology they were able to get a scale model to work with a tennis ball, but the full sized cannon was barely able to get the ball out of the barrel.

Archimedes may have theorized that steam could be used in a projectile weapon, but there is no evidence that any such weapon was ever built.


Hold the phone! The bright people at MIT have built a steam cannon. http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www//experi...eamCannon.html

They claim that their design (which they don't describe) is consistent with the materials and technology of the Da Vinci drawings. Bear in mind that the link between the Da Vinci drawing and Archimedes is not conclusive.

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

@ Pontius Pilate
For your C answer, I feel soo sad to learn if that the best Byzantium units in Crussaders is just a Fantasy units... but at least I now read so interesting articles about Greek cannon, made by Archimides

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/CatapultTypes.htm

Could the EB II had the Archimidean Steam cannon units for Syrakousai or Koinon? it can made into reform units such as "Archimidean Reform" and the Prerequisite is built the highest Academic structure in Syrakousai...

Those damn flamethrower always wipe out my charging HC all the time if I couldn't find any support from archers or seige egine.
Howerver, the steam cannon was thing from tale/legend or just have some historical fact support strongly? IMO there would be fact but this is depend on the EB team to decide.

[Hax]

Could the EB II had the Archimidean Steam cannon units for Syrakousai or Koinon? it can made into reform units such as "Archimidean Reform" and the Prerequisite is built the highest Academic structure in Syrakousai...

The thing is that there is no conclusive evidence that the Syrakousoi or Koinon Hellenon ever even built such a weapon, let alone use it in large enough numbers for it to make a unit in EB II. Unless you can come with conclusive evidence that:

1) This weapon was built and tested
2) Used by armies, in large numbers

this will not be in EB II.

[Celtic_Punk]

plus we dont actually know what greekfire was actually composed of last time I searched around for the answer. Its one of those tall tales like the huge mirror-shields that stopped the roman navy.

I remember hearing somewhere there were reports in roman literature of greekfire, which would support its existance. Perhaps it was them just talk about a rumour that laid quite the egg in their nest? I'll try to find it, but there still is not much evidence of greekfire... its just all hearsay really.

Maybe it was the first willy pete grenade? (white phospherous, when the grenade's casing is breached the WP-which has an extremely low ignition point- reacts with the air, burning anything it touches horribly at temp's of over 2000*C) The greeks were pretty nifty, I wouldn't put it past them. I'd need to see it to believe it though.

[Zenith Darksea]

The use of Greek fire is well enough attested for us to be sure that it was real and was used (and not just by the Byzantines - the Arabs and Turks developed a version of it too). It is recorded in more than one battle and there are even diagrams of it being fired from a ship-mounted tube in manuscripts. However, we don't know its exact composition. It probably had something to do with naphtha, though.

[Celtic_Punk]

early napalm? its simple to make with modern materials. Gasoline and Styrofoam. light that sucker up and WHOOOSH! Learnt that in basic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

early napalm? its simple to make with modern materials. Gasoline and Styrofoam. light that sucker up and WHOOOSH! Learnt that in basic.

No it isn't. For instance one of the most dangerous properties about napalm is that it will 'spontainously' combust under normal circumstances -- no 'light that sucker up' needed. Another is that while its fires will (temporarily) be put out by applying enough water, when the napalm dries up these fires will start going again: and it is exceedingly hard to remove napalm.

[Megas Methuselah]

Another is that while its fires will (temporarily) be put out by applying enough water, when the napalm dries up these fires will start going again: and it is exceedingly hard to remove napalm.

Huh. How do you put the fire out, then? Just let it burn...?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Pretty much.

Of course were you to set off some napalm inside a well-enclosed space (e.g.: *inside* a building) you could try isolating it with powder. If the powder doesn't just evaporate (not the right word for the transition between solid & gaseous state, I know) at the sheer heat.

Problem is that napalm isn't exactly used to burn out a building from *inside* but rather as a very nasty kind of firebomb, mostly dropped off a plane or similar.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So just to sum up this thread, Greek Fire and all those other super weapons (mirrors catching ships on fire etc..) will not be appearing in EB2 unless there is documented archeological evidence?

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, I believe so. They're approaching Greek Fire units the same way they approached inciendiary pigs back in EB1.

[Gleemonex]

evaporate (not the right word for the transition between solid & gaseous state, I know) at the sheer heat.

Sublime, or sublimate. HTH

Yeah, I believe so. They're approaching Greek Fire units the same way they approached inciendiary pigs back in EB1.

Even less likely. After all, the historical record shows that 'incindiary pigs' were (very, very rarely) used in the EB timeframe, but Greek Fire is only reliably known to show up a few hundred years later.

-Glee

[Subotan]

This may not be the best source, but I remember from my Horrible Histories:Groovy Greeks book a Boetian Flamethrower being made. I'll see if I can find it.
Ah, here we go.

During the Peloponnesian War, Greeks were fighting Greeks. If you know how your enemy fights, you can stop him - and he can stop you. Every battle becomes a 0-0 draw. What you need is a secret weapon to frighten and surprise the enemy.
That's what the groovy Greek army from Boetia did when besieging the city of Delium. Here's what they came up with...
1. Cut down a tall, straight tree. Split the trunk into two and trim the branches.
2. Hollow out the trunk, then join the two sides together, so it looks like a flute.
3. Hang a vessel full of smouldering coals, sulphur and tar at one end, and a pair of bellows on the other end.
4. Place the trunk in a ram like structure, roll the machine to a part of the enemy walls mostly made of wood. Aim the tube at the walls and squeeze the bellows.
5. A huge flame will shoot out the metal vessel, setting fire to the walls and scaring any defenders away

Holy crap. That's AWESOME.

[Tellos Athenaios]

sublimate

Bingo, that's the word! You can tell it has been a few years since last I took courses in Chemistry.

[Ludens]

Hans van Wees mentions the flamethrower as well in "Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities". However, it appears to have been a one-off thing, so it probably wasn't that useful. I also recall reading that the defenders of Tyr sprayed Alexander the Great's soldiers with red-hot sand, which stuck into their clothes and armour.

[Subotan]

It is still undeniably awesome though.

[Gleemonex]

Bingo, that's the word! You can tell it has been a few years since last I took courses in Chemistry.

"Sublime" (vb.) is also acceptable. Glad to be of service

This may not be the best source, but I remember from my Horrible Histories:Groovy Greeks book a Boetian Flamethrower being made. I'll see if I can find it.
Ah, here we go.

[...]

Holy crap. That's AWESOME.

Hans van Wees mentions the flamethrower as well in "Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities". However, it appears to have been a one-off thing, so it probably wasn't that useful. I also recall reading that the defenders of Tyr sprayed Alexander the Great's soldiers with red-hot sand, which stuck into their clothes and armour.

Game-wise, this stuff would be more the realm of a FPS or adventure game than a strategy game. But very interesting nonetheless. I wonder what is the source for that "Boeotian Flamethrower" (if it's not apocryphal).

-Glee

[phonicsmonkey]

They're approaching Greek Fire units the same way they approached inciendiary pigs back in EB1.

Very, very quietly and carefully...

[rydog]

The flamethrower is from Thucydides:

Meanwhile the Boeotians...attacked the fort, and after divers efforts finally succeeded in taking it by an engine of the following description. They sawed in two and scooped out a great beam from end to end, and fitting it nicely together again like a pipe, hung by chains a cauldron at one extremity, with which communicated an iron tube projecting from the beam, which was itself in great part plated with iron. This they brought up from a distance upon carts to the part of the wall principally
composed of vines and timber, and when it was near, inserted huge bellows into their end of the beam and blew with them. The blast passing closely confined into the cauldron, which was filled with lighted coals, sulphur and pitch, made a great blaze, and set fire to the wall, which soon became untenable for its defenders, who left it and fled; and in this way the fort was taken.

[Celtic_Punk]

This may not be the best source, but I remember from my Horrible Histories:Groovy Greeks book a Boetian Flamethrower being made. I'll see if I can find it.
Ah, here we go.


Holy crap. That's AWESOME.

that book got me into history, mate.


Also about napalm... That recipe I posted needs to be lighted. I know this from experience. In basic training the DS in AIT was telling us how to make a few concoctions. Smoke grenades and what not. One of the recruits asked how to make napalm and he just told us that one. I tried it out when i got back from basic. Its VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS!!!!!

Under no circumstances should you ever try to make napalm, unless your country is being invaded and you are part of a paramilitary force, and need a way to delay an infantry advance. (in that case its very useful and go ahead and use that, if you survive to tell the tale please do. I'd love to hear about it) Once you start the reaction it cannot be stopped, it burns at high temperatures and someone can be killed or maimed.

If you decide to be an eegit and make it I assume no responsibility if you get caught by your parents or burn your arm off.

There's a reason we don't use it anymore... Its a pretty inhumane way to die. (in comparison to being bombed or bayonetted )

[Subotan]

that book got me into history, mate.

Likewise, along with Age of Empires 2. Both were unimaginably cool at the age of eight.

[Celtic_Punk]

hehe AOE2 was awesome I always used the spanish or celts. my brother used the huns cause you didnt have to build homes.