The Uses of Guilds

[oudysseos]

I have been thinking about how Guilds can be modded to add to EB II. I believe that there are many exciting possibilities for role-play and realism to be enhanced by creative modding of this M2TW feature.

Before I go into details, I think it is worthwhile considering what Guilds are when stripped of their medieval connotations.

These two threads detail how guilds work in M2TW and how they can be modded.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...30&postcount=3
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77577

A Guild is a build tree. It has three levels. It can be associated with city, castle, or both.
You may have only one level 1 guild of any kind per city.
You may have only one level 2 guild of each kind per faction.
There can be only 1 level 3 guild of each kind in the whole game. This means you must compete with the other factions to attract a level 3 guild.
Specific types of guild can be restricted to specific factions.

It can be used for recruitment of units or characters.
It can have benefits relating to trade, happiness, law, public health, unit experience, or character statistics.
It can trigger events, perhaps other build trees.

To be built, the player has to receive an invitation from the Guild, meaning that you cannot start this build tree anytime you want.
You get invites from guilds by scoring "points" with them. For example, when you recruit a merchant, your score at the merchants guild (in the recruiting city) increases by 10. Each city keeps track of its score at each guild independently of your other cities.
The points accumulate until you hit the thresholds. The threshold for a guild house in the city is 100. As soon as you score 100 points with a guild in a city, they will approach you about building a house there (provided you have the money to build it). If you reject the offer, your score with the guild takes a penalty, and they will approach you again if the score reaches 100 again. If your score with a guild reaches 250 in a city, and you do not have a master guild with them yet, they will ask you to host their master guild. If your score reaches 500 and the guild hasn't built a world headquarters yet, they will ask you to host their headquarters. Every turn after the 25th turn, the normalization process takes place. Normalization is where you lose 1 point with every guild in all your cities. So if you train a spy in a city, 10 turns later the score boost is gone. You need to rapidly earn points with a guild before the normalization process cancels out your score.

Guild specific missions are possible, and if used can contribute to the points process for the next level of guild.

The role-playing opportunities should be obvious: guilds represent a whole new level of interaction with the game, where your actions directly influence the development paths that can open up to you, and a new and potentially non-military way to compete with other factions.

Some specific examples of what Guilds could represent.

Micro-factions

Guilds could easily represent small nations, regional powers or small tribes that are now subsumed in the Eleutheroi or as part of the various playable factions. The following list is not exhaustive or comprehensive, and I am not for a moment suggesting that this many separate guilds be created (at least not at first). But one or two of the best candidates could be used to represent micro-factions that may throw in their lot with one or more of the playable factions, depending on their actions.

To develop an example, let's take the Daha. Dahae skirmisher cavalry and Dahae riders are common mercenary units in the eastern part of the map. Many factions can also recruit Dahae units directly depending on their MIC and Government type. There is also a good unit of Dahae Noble Cavalry.
If there was to be a Daha 'Guild', what would happen is that the Dahae units would disappear from the normal recruitment system. Factions would have to earn points with the Daha in order to attract their support. This could be by hiring low-level Daha mercs- once you have enough Daha in your army, you have attracted the attention of the Daha nobles, who wish to offer you their qualified support. You build a level 1 Daha Guild (it wouldn't be called that :)), which allows you to recruit Daha skirmishers directly, and maybe has some other effects associated with it (culture, happiness?). To reach level 2, you have to recruit lots of Dahae, and maybe complete a mission for them (conquer a specific territory?). Then you get the Dahae Riders. The best unit would be reserved for level 3 and represents the total commitment of the Dahae people to your cause. Although any other faction that has managed to attract level 1 and 2 Dahae Guilds can recruit skirmishers, only you have the mighty Dahae Nobles on your side.

Again, these examples are only some possibilities.

Tribes
Iberian Tribes (17 units)
Belgae (4 units currently)
Daha (3 units)
Carnutes (1 unit)
Ordes
Chatti
Goidelic (5 or 6 units)
Skuda (4 units)
Aursa (2 or 3 units)
Boii
Cimbri
Teutones
Bastarnae
Thracians (4 or 5 units)

Smaller Kingdoms, Confederacies and Polities

I see this group as subtly different than tribes. These are more advanced societies, more tied to one place, and could have much more specific triggers, or be for certain factions only. Being offered a guild by a small kingdom represents an alliance or treaty, and could have significant impacts on public order, trade, culture penalties etc. The fact that you would have to work to earn the trust and support of a smaller kingdom while balancing their demands against those your other 'guilds' would be role-playing heaven. At level 3, perhaps some of these kinds of guilds could offer you recruitable generals to join your family.

Illyria
Maccabees (wouldn't this be fun?)
Galatia
Commagene
Mauryan (9 units)
Persians and Medes (7 or 8 units)
Massylia (if it doesn't make it in as a faction)
Massaesylia (ditto)
Garama
Mauretania
Nabataea
Samnium (2 or 3 units at least)
Megale Hellas The Greek City States of southern Italy weren't automatically aligned with Pyhrros!


The use of guilds to represent semi-playable micro-factions potentially blows the lid off of faction limitations. There is also the possibility of a system of faction development like the one Dominion of the Sword is working on, which could be tied into the micro- and intra-factional guilds to determine how your faction changes over time.

Intra-factional Structures

Here I mean something quite different than above. Even within a solidly homogeneous faction, there are elements that lend themselves to a Guild build tree. A generic one would be Nobles- why should you be able to count on the unequivocal support of the nobility of your kingdom? What if you couldn't? Many factions have important elite units that represent the fighting nobility. Recruitment of these units could depend on the Nobles Guild build tree, which would have to be specific to each faction ( i.e. only the Parthians could have a Parthian Nobles Guild ). If we're talking Macedonians, the Hypaspistai and Hetairoi would be available to you only after you've convinced the nobles that you are worthy of their support, and so on.

Nobles of any faction
Koinon ton Makedonon - you may be King of Macedon, but can you keep the support of the Assembly of Macedonians? Could be tied to Pezhetairoi recruitment.
Greek Leagues - if the Aitolians and Achaeans don't make it as factions, they can be political organizations that you must conciliate to keep control of Greece. Could be used for Iphikratid Hoplites.
Tribal Confederacies
Comitia Centuriata or Concilium Plebis (Romans only, of course)
Druidic Colleges (Isle of Mona) (Celtic factions, maybe Casse only?)
Spartan Agoge (I think that this would be much better as a guild than a Gov type. Could recruit Spartan hoplites.)

Current Build Trees

Some of the build trees currently in place in EB1 could be turned into guilds, representing the contribution of someone other than the faction leader to the development of the nation.

Temples and Religion (level 2 recruits an agent?)
Games and Festivals (level 2 recruits an agent?)
Schools
Slave Economy (decreases build times and costs, increases unrest?)
Kleruchies (tied to Kleruch unit recruitment?)
Machimoi


Concepts and Ideologies

This is the least-developed part of my thinking but potential the most powerful game-play tool. Guilds could be used to represent various kinds of ideas and movements that transcend normal factional allegiances. Whatever the religion system of M2TW becomes, a related guild system could be developed that would allow you to role-play your characters to a whole new level. If, as has been suggested, religion turns into something to do with political ideology, you could have the governor of a city that builds a city popular assembly be offered the Democracy Guild, with who knows what affects?

Pan-Hellenism
Political Allegiances
Reforms, Uniting Events
Time of Bondsmen/Time of Soldiers


It would not be necessary to choose between different kinds of guilds or concepts: EBII could have a few guilds that represent micro-factions, a couple that represent intra-factional structures and one that stands for an abstract concept.

I think that there is a lot of possibilities here, of which I have only scratched the surface. I am sure that the EB team has already had some great ideas about this, but I hope by throwing this out there that it might be of some help and interest.

[johnhughthom]

Some really well thought out ideas there.

[Subotan]

Are there building slots as well? Because if so, then it would quickly eat up the slots. Awesome idea though, but I'd recommend the Samnites, Skythians, Qataban and Georgia as well.

[Cute Wolf]

Very good idea

But I think that the minor confederation is the most realistic... (Only one factions at a time can build Dahae nobles...)

[Megas Methuselah]

Nice. I can't wait to hear EB's stance on this proposal, i.e. Bovi.

[oudysseos]

Subotan, I don't know how build slots works in M2TW, but in vanilla there are 15 guilds, 8 of which have recruitment attached to them. Just working off of that would give us 8 micro factions and 7 'others' which could be any combination of intra-factional structures, build trees, or more abstract concepts. This is major jumping the gun on my part, but let's say just for the sake of argument that the micro-faction concept at least was thought worthy of development, and the 8 current recruiting guilds were used as the basis for modding. I would look at it regionally: i.e., choose 8 smaller regional powers that 1. already have a presence in EB1 (less research) and 2. aren't exclusive to any 1 playable faction, for the dynamic of inter-factional competition and role-playing. The list might look something like this:

1.Iberia
Lots of possibilities- Tartessos, Celtiberia (Arevaci)
Carthage and the Lusotannan would have to compete for their aid.

2.Italy
Samnites or Megale Hellas
Rome and Epiros are not the only powers in Italy.

3.North Africa
Massylia, Massaesylia or Numidia depending on playable factions

4.Egypt
Machimoi- would add complexity to the Ptolemy homeland. The level 1 guild could be 5-Aroura Macimoi, level 2 7-Aroura Machimoi and level 3 the Machimoi Epilektoi. Each level could have increasingly good recruitment attached to it, as well as other benefits for public order, taxation, culture, etc. Possibly the units could be free or low upkeep when garrisoned, making the pursuit of this build tree more worth while to the player.

5.Steppe
Skuda or Dahae

6.Persia/Meopotamia
Persian/Median Nobility- the Huvaka could be courted by the Seleukids, Pahlava, Baktrians or whoever else tries to subdue the Achaemenid heartland

7.Celtic
Belgae

8.Eastern Europe
Bastarnae, Boii, Dacian Tribes

So far the possible micro-factions have been based on the units in EB1, but recruitment is not the only possible effect, even of these kinds of guilds. They could have major implications for regional pacification or even affect the kind of government structures that you can access once you have conquered the province. The reason I am so excited about these ideas is that conquering a city and constructing buildings are materialistic things: earning the support of a guild/faction means that you have the 'hearts and minds' of the population as well.


Again, this isn't really a proposal to the EB team (who I am sure have ideas of their own) but an offering of some ideas, perhaps put together in a way they had not yet considered. I don't think that I have explored all of the possibilities or ramifications, and would be really interested to see if someone else can add to my ideas.

[bovi]

I like what I'm reading here. We haven't decided how to use guilds in any final way, so these suggestions are very welcome. Before deciding just what to represent with guilds we'll likely implement other concepts and see how many building complexes are left for these special buildings.

[Subotan]

Can you restrict guilds to only be built in certain areas?

[Celtic_Punk]

I like this idea of mini factions. It's only problem is the same old unit limit... I'm sure there is a way around it. There must be. The modding crews on Silenthunter 3 broke ground on removing hatches on the sub interior so you could see between the the control room and the sound room. Which was a massive hardcode wall.

obviously its not the same game, but hardcodes can be broken or even worked around sometimes.

[Shadowwalker]

But even if its possible you still violate licence terms (afaik).
And that could mean the end of EB when CA finds out...

[oudysseos]

I shouldn't bump my own thread, but unit limits don't really apply. I'm not suggesting the creation of new units, but rather different methods of recruitment. It's as if you took the second line of barracks (the ones for foreign auxiliaries) and turned them into guild-style semi-autonomous build trees. The units that would have been recruited by you directly through your auxiliary barracks must now be recruited through a micro-faction, with whom you have to score points to be able to use. See?

And remember- factions and units aint the half of it.

[Megas Methuselah]

I'm not suggesting the creation of new units, but rather different methods of recruitment.

Man, that sounds real nice.

[Cbvani]

I like how in depth this idea is. I would welcome it as an addition - although implementation may take a few builds!

[Cullhwch]

Would a mercenaries' guild be a good idea? A level 1 guild could recruit local mercenaries with bigger pools than normal merc recruitment. At level 2 troops from outlying areas (like say, Gaul or Illyria if the guild is in Rome) could be recruited in small pools. A world headquarters guild could recruit truly exotic units like elephants from very limited pools.

[Celtic_Punk]

I shouldn't bump my own thread, but unit limits don't really apply. I'm not suggesting the creation of new units, but rather different methods of recruitment. It's as if you took the second line of barracks (the ones for foreign auxiliaries) and turned them into guild-style semi-autonomous build trees. The units that would have been recruited by you directly through your auxiliary barracks must now be recruited through a micro-faction, with whom you have to score points to be able to use. See?

And remember- factions and units aint the half of it.

hmmm that sounds alot more realisitic too. I'm sure most nations wouldn't just train up their men the way they've always done for the romans. like dacian falx men wouldnt be climbing over walls to JOIN the romans. (more like massacre them like in braveheart. the only good scene ahhaa)

[Cartaphilus]

Great idea, man.
I hope that you can convince the Team.

[Moros]

Very interesting points Oudysseos!

[General Appo]

They're not interesting, they're bloody brilliant.

[oudysseos]

Shucks. [Blushes]

Happy Holidays.

[runner3434]

If you were to give each large area a guild: Italy, Gaul, spain etc. Then you could have it so that your reputation with the locals was represented by your reputation with that guild.

The guild buildings would be industructable in every town.

If scripting allows if you sack teh town it should decrease your reputation with that guild.

Just an idea

[Aemilius Paulus]

They're not interesting, they're bloody brilliant.

Appo is right. You definitely deserve a balloon for this: . I wonder what implications this idea will have on the current AOR system... How many building slots does M2TW have? I've heard people say the unit slots are virtually unlimited, so what about the building slots? EB I had so many unique buildings that it seemed as if the slots were limitless, but in reality, the buildings weren't all that varied, with Auguries, for example, occupying the same slot as the "barbarian" Taverns, causing numerous problems, such as the prevalence of the"Drink" trait.

[oudysseos]

128 building slots, maximum 9 buildings per slot

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

Wow this idea is really great!

[Cartaphilus]

128 building slots, maximum 9 buildings per slot

It seems enough for your idea.

[antisocialmunky]

Who says you only need to have one use for guilds? You can use them to represent military settlers, ethnicity, migration, citizenship, etc all at the same time.

I wouldn't mind if they were used to mark the main ethnicity of people in a region for regional recruitment. It would make judging recruitment alot easier. If we knew for instance that there was a level 1 Thracian Guild, you would know that there would be some potential for recruitment of only low level thracian units. Etc.

PS. Don't forget about Galatians.

[Subotan]

128 building slots, maximum 9 buildings per slot

Awesome. With that amount, you could easily implement all of your ideas. Sadly, I think you can only have one guild per city, is that correct?

[HunGeneral]

I know this thread is almost one year old (sorry for Necroing thread), but I would like to ask if any plans have been made in the matter of guild like oudysseos had suggested?

I don't remember to have seen them being mentioned in any previevs which have appeared since then and forum search hasn't brought any answers either.

So to put it short has these ideas been taken forward since then (or have I just missed something)

[Macilrille]

I love these ideas as well, and had not seen them before (having been only really active for 10 months or so). There is even a precedent for the mini factions, for when you take The Holy Land as a European, the Templars approach you about a guildhouse and you can start recruiting them. I cannot recall what makes the Knights of St John do the same, but that is two mini factions right there for you.

[Leão magno]

Impressive idea! Really atonishing

[B-Wing]

This is interesting, but I have trouble imagining what kind of missions or other factors would increase one's "guild attraction score". That is, what would a faction have to do in order to upgrade to level 2 or 3? I can't really imagine what kind of missions/favors the Belgic nobility would demand of their overlords. And I don't know that it would make much sense to increase your "score" simply for recruiting certain unit types (which is the primary way of gaining and improving certain guilds in M2TW). Not trying to criticize, just asking.