Sab'yn Status

[Elmetiacos]

I was told a while ago that nobody was currently working on this faction for EB or EB2 and hence the team had had to put in Greek or Hebrew names as placeholders for some units. While surfing for information on Hamitic/Celtic syntactical similarities for another thread, I happened upon this website with its large database: http://starling.rinet.ru/index2.php?lan=en which includes Epigraphic South Arabian. There are words like 'FRS.N for "horsemen" GYS2 for "army unit, detachment" which could be used to get reasonable approximations of Sabaean unit names... or is this already being done?

[bovi]

No, this isn't being done. Thanks, I'm sure that will be useful .

[Ibrahim]

I was told a while ago that nobody was currently working on this faction for EB or EB2 and hence the team had had to put in Greek or Hebrew names as placeholders for some units. While surfing for information on Hamitic/Celtic syntactical similarities for another thread, I happened upon this website with its large database: http://starling.rinet.ru/index2.php?lan=en which includes Epigraphic South Arabian. There are words like 'FRS.N for "horsemen" GYS2 for "army unit, detachment" which could be used to get reasonable approximations of Sabaean unit names... or is this already being done?

they sound very familiar to me: the first is like fursān, and the second like jaish.


It just donned on me: why didn't EB use Arabic as a placeholder? (up until Elmetiacos found this)

EDIT: what has hamitic to do with Celtic (beside maybe a few loanwords)? and how do I find the dictionary you decribe in the website(Epigraphic S. Arabian)?

EDIT: never mind-got it.

[Elmetiacos]

EDIT: what has hamitic to do with Celtic (beside maybe a few loanwords)?

It started in the 18th Century in a silly way, with Welshmen trying to draw false analogies with Hebrew to prove the antiquity of Welsh, but more recently some people have drawn different parallels, mainly the unusual word order of modern insular Celtic languages, which are apparently more like Hamitic or Semitic than Indo-European. It's been used to argue that an Afro-Asiatic language was spoken in the British Isles, either as a pre-Celtic substrate or in a Phoenician trading colony. I was on the same mailing list as a Celticist called Alex Kondratiev a few years ago and we floated the idea that the non-Celtic Pictish oghams could be Hamitic on the basis that the Picts were supposedly matrilinear and the syllable ETT kept appearing, so it could be the feminine T affix. Following this reasoning the inscription at Lunasting (E)TTUCUHETTSAHEHHTANNNHCCVVEVVNEHHTON starts t-wkw-t sa... which suggests a goddess whose name means bright or shining (3152) is asked to do something to someone. The theory didn't really take off...

[oudysseos]

I've been reading my Cunliffe as a result of the Irish/Celts thread, and the claim is not quite that there was an afro-asiatic language spoken as a whole, but that there was a lingua franca that developed as a result of bronze age trade networks (Cunliffe thinks that there were two competing networks), stretching from Carthage to the British Isles, and that this largely celtic lingua franca was influenced in some way by the punic speaking traders. He also concedes that there may be alternate causes for the correspondences.

I believe that there is a German (Vonnenman? or something like that) who has a theory about semitic Picts. But I'm not familiar with it.

[Elmetiacos]

Vennemann - he thinks that there was such a language spoken all over Western Europe.

[lobf]

And Jesus really lived in America.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh lobf, will you ever make a comment that doesn't make me laugh?

[oudysseos]

Lobf, I have to point out that Vennemann may or may not be wrong in his theory about Punic substrates to German and Celtic languages, but he's not just talking out of his Arsch. Here is an extensive list of his work: http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~vennemann/ Some of it is very interesting and far beyond my competence to judge, and I suspect beyond yours as well, unless you have a 35+ year history of published works on linguistics, historical phonology, morphology, and other disciplines. All of which has nothing to do with the Sab'yn.

[Celtic_Punk]

And Jesus really lived in America.

*shakes head* all about the mormons...


As usual Oudyssos I find the links you post are such an interesting read.

[Elmetiacos]

Vennemann - he thinks that there was such a language spoken all over Western Europe.

Hmm, actually, he seems to believe that it was a language related to Basque and Aquitanian that was spoken all over Western Europe; Semitic was limited to Britain.

[lobf]

unless you have a 35+ year history of published works on linguistics, historical phonology, morphology, and other disciplines.

Well as a matter of fact...

No, actually. That website makes no sense to me at all, really. Maybe because I just woke up.

[Ibrahim]

It started in the 18th Century in a silly way, with Welshmen trying to draw false analogies with Hebrew to prove the antiquity of Welsh, but more recently some people have drawn different parallels, mainly the unusual word order of modern insular Celtic languages, which are apparently more like Hamitic or Semitic than Indo-European. It's been used to argue that an Afro-Asiatic language was spoken in the British Isles, either as a pre-Celtic substrate or in a Phoenician trading colony. I was on the same mailing list as a Celticist called Alex Kondratiev a few years ago and we floated the idea that the non-Celtic Pictish oghams could be Hamitic on the basis that the Picts were supposedly matrilinear and the syllable ETT kept appearing, so it could be the feminine T affix. Following this reasoning the inscription at Lunasting (E)TTUCUHETTSAHEHHTANNNHCCVVEVVNEHHTON starts t-wkw-t sa... which suggests a goddess whose name means bright or shining (3152) is asked to do something to someone. The theory didn't really take off...

thanks for enlightening me.

[Cartaphilus]

Hmm, actually, he seems to believe that it was a language related to Basque and Aquitanian that was spoken all over Western Europe; Semitic was limited to Britain.

How a semitic language could arrive to British Island and last enough time to leave a trace?
I think that it is nearly impossible.
Have the few punic or phoenician merchants that supposedly traveled to the Cassiterides searching tin influenced the evolution of an indoeuropean language spoken by thousands?
It would be a miracle.

Think better in "old european" languages - that they were not semitic at all.

(But the identification of the Cassiterides is not even clear - they may fit better with spanish territory than to british one)

[Moros]

Thanks for a very interesting link! No plans have been made yet when it comes to sabaean unit/building/... translations. Though I hope we can at least use modern Arabian as a basis combined with as much as we can find about Sabaean or similar arabian dialects.

[Ibrahim]

Thanks for a very interesting link! No plans have been made yet when it comes to sabaean unit/building/... translations. Though I hope we can at least use modern Arabian as a basis combined with as much as we can find about Sabaean or similar arabian dialects.

Moros, I have just went ahead and made a dictionary/lexicon of Sabaean, using that link and one other source. you want? I can have it finalised by next week.

EDIT: prototype:
http://files.filefront.com/Epigraphi.../fileinfo.html

[Subotan]

Sweet. It's great that EB manages to somehow attract specialists like you.

[Elmetiacos]

Great stuff! I stumbled across this study of Modern South Arabian on a pdf a while ago: http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/fichiers/S...MLanguages.pdf, although I seem to remember someone saying ESA is actually closer to Ge'ez (classical Ethiopian) than these languages. It's all rather technical, but probably easier to understand if you speak a Semitic language such as Arabic already (which I obviously don't)

[Ibrahim]

Great stuff! I stumbled across this study of Modern South Arabian on a pdf a while ago: http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/fichiers/S...MLanguages.pdf, although I seem to remember someone saying ESA is actually closer to Ge'ez (classical Ethiopian) than these languages. It's all rather technical, but probably easier to understand if you speak a Semitic language such as Arabic already (which I obviously don't)

I do: the languages of today (MSAL), indeed have less in common wih Arabic than sabaean does to Arabic: phonology is also very different: but most of the words I saw for ESA matched arabic words perfectly (consonant wise), but MSAL's cognates are barely recognizable: they have IIRC evolved many new vowels, while retaining all or most of proto semetic's consonents-more consonents than Arabic in Fact, or ESA). grammar is far more different too, at least as far as I can tell .that said, the three languages should belong to 3 seperate branches of the semetic languages: Arabic northernmost, then sabaean, then MSAL, and lastly Ge'ez, the most "southern". but whether ESA is closer to Arabic or Ge'ez, elmetiacos, I dunno..I just learn the language. I'll need more words, and a better understanding of their grammar to tell.

I do not yet have a list properly made for sabaean pronouns-but If I do, I can get a better idea.


@Subotan: I'm no specialist in languages-just a curious fulan

[Moros]

Moros, I have just went ahead and made a dictionary/lexicon of Sabaean, using that link and one other source. you want? I can have it finalised by next week.

EDIT: prototype:
http://files.filefront.com/Epigraphi.../fileinfo.html

That's great! Thank you quite a bunch.
Edit: might you have a link to the other source, or a reference if not a website. I try to keep track all sources I use. Makes it easier to awnser questions in the future and perhaps for further reference. Thank you very much for your help.

[Ibrahim]

That's great! Thank you quite a bunch.
Edit: might you have a link to the other source, or a reference if not a website. I try to keep track all sources I use. Makes it easier to awnser questions in the future and perhaps for further reference. Thank you very much for your help.

Its the website Elmetiacos provided. plus, I foud a txt file of Sabaean lexicon on the internet (a google search). I can give ye a webite, but I have to find it again (I don't keep records like I'm supposed to).

but I'll get it for you, if I can find it again.

EDIT:Finally found it: http://nlp.amharic.org/resources/rel...s-20080421.txt
I just found these too:
http://www.telefonica.net/web2/aulao...SEM.10ENSA.pdf (Its a bibliography, but Its got info in it)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html (Its proto semetic, but lays down some common rules)

I was going to prepare the info I had by yesterday, but I ran into RL, and www.kronoskaf.com's labor shortages (I need to mae articles in place of my boss).

I will compare the sabaean glossary to Akkadian, Arabic, and Amharic (I'll need to lear Amharic). And If anyone knwlegeable in Hebrew wishes to help, PM me.

[Moros]

Its the website Elmetiacos provided. plus, I foud a txt file of Sabaean lexicon on the internet (a google search). I can give ye a webite, but I have to find it again (I don't keep records like I'm supposed to).

but I'll get it for you, if I can find it again.

EDIT:Finally found it: http://nlp.amharic.org/resources/rel...s-20080421.txt
I just found these too:
http://www.telefonica.net/web2/aulao...SEM.10ENSA.pdf (Its a bibliography, but Its got info in it)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html (Its proto semetic, but lays down some common rules)

I was going to prepare the info I had by yesterday, but I ran into RL, and www.kronoskaf.com's labor shortages (I need to mae articles in place of my boss).

I will compare the sabaean glossary to Akkadian, Arabic, and Amharic (I'll need to lear Amharic). And If anyone knwlegeable in Hebrew wishes to help, PM me.

Very nice work, very nice indeed.

[Ibrahim]

well, I've started on a more complete study.

wish good luck. and that college doesn't stop it.

[Moros]

well, I've started on a more complete study.

wish good luck. and that college doesn't stop it.

Good luck! And college is keeping me from my EB research too.

[SamuraiofDoom]

Will our new Sab'yns be able to recruit Arab infantrymen and Bedouin Tribesmen.

[gamegeek2]

Thx a bunch, Ibrahim, I'll put these roots to use in AtB.

[Ibrahim]

Will our new Sab'yns be able to recruit Arab infantrymen and Bedouin Tribesmen.

If that was a question, then yes, they should. but they are nothing like the infantry you are thinking of...

besides, they already reruit Arabian auxiliaries, so why change the unit roster? (though they seriously need to lose the javelins)...

[Elmetiacos]

More good stuff - this short paper: http://www.ieiop.com/pub/10korotayev_24477968.pdf has sha'b as an administrative division and has a translation of qsd-hmw w-rgl-hmw w-'dm-hmw as "free peasants and soldiers and clients".

[Ibrahim]

More good stuff - this short paper: http://www.ieiop.com/pub/10korotayev_24477968.pdf has sha'b as an administrative division and has a translation of qsd-hmw w-rgl-hmw w-'dm-hmw as "free peasants and soldiers and clients".

thanks!

I see that rgl is cognate to arabic rajul, used here for soldiers, hmw means free, 'dm is client, and qsd is peasents. I'll try to add them in the mini lexicon.


@anyone reading: If you find any information on the language and culture of Saba', post a link here.

[Moros]

Great work Ibrahim. My exams are done so I'll have more time to contribute.