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Thread: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

  1. #31
    Member Member Quercuum's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire View Post
    According to QuickLatin (which was probably used for this), ALIO is both Dative and Ablative. :)

    But perhaps it's as you say, the popular vulgar form of Latin. Is there a source that states that ALIO is not both abl. and dat.?

    When I check most Ablative and Datives, they very often share the suffix.

    I've already specified that "alio" COULD be correct as a dative in vulgar Latin. I remember, but I'm not sure, that "alio" is also a form used in some medieval documents. Anyways, what I think is now important to do, is to choose which Latin we want to use in this game and, since it's about an era in which Romans spoke Classical Latin, I think that's the language we should use. We want to make this mod as realistic as possible, don't we? So "ALII" is the most senseful choice to take. That's all I wanted to say

    P.S: I've also described how some adjectives aren't declined as other ones. In these adj. genitive and dative are completely different from the usual forms.
    So you're right when you say that most ablatives and datives share the suffix, since it happens in the second declination, and the third for
    what regards adjectives (Ex: "Lupo" is both dative and ablative for "Lupus", 2nd declination; "Dulci" is both dative and ablative for "Dulcis,-e", adjective
    of the third declination), but there are some exceptions; "Alius" is one of these.

    P.S. 2: Up to now, this is the only source stating what I said (Look at pages 258-259-260)
    "http://books.google.it/books?id=_OJNfmxYi1IC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=special+adjectives+latin&source=bl&ots=nLm-71l6Y-&sig=3iH2BkspzmJYF3pNVHTbFX_dCIk&hl=it&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA261,M1"
    Last edited by Quercuum; 12-17-2008 at 21:32.

  2. #32
    aka Artaserse (the Lone Borg) Member Obelics's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Urg View Post
    I don't think its a mistake.

    My latin dictionary says "alio" is an adverb (not a declension of alius, which is an adjective) which means "to someone/someplace else". I think it was a relatively common latin word.
    According to my old dictionary, the adverb "Alio" exist, but the main meaning is "elsewhere"
    Now, always according to it, this adverb has an "extended" II(second) meaning of "elsewhere"="to a different people", but just as a traslated/extended meaning.
    So if the english sentence sound good as "Everyone is barbarous elsewhere" than is ok, but i dont think so.
    To better undertand if i say to a man: "ehi! I dont want to read your curriculum"
    then the guy could answer "then i will send it elsewhere" in the same meaning of "I will send it to some other guy" in this case i could use Alio as an adverb
    But i think "Everyone is barbarous elsewhere" or “Everyone is a barbarian to other places” in the sense of "other people" sounds strange to me.
    Also even if we want to accept it as a poetical licence, than it's a bit strange (for me) to see an adverb at the end of the sentence.

    Here's a quote from Livio:
    quo alio nisi ad nos socios

    means: to whom if not to us allies? litterally==> to what "other where" if not to us allies?
    http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Ab_Urb...ta/liber_XXXIX

    that is what i got from my old lyceum vocabulary, and according to my knowledge that i repeat is very limited (highschool), so as usually dont take it sure.

  3. #33
    Sharp/Charismatic/Languorous Member Novellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    That's a pretty huge discovery, finding a possible error in the translation. I can see it now:

    EB 1.3 Released

    Changed "Quisque est barbarus alio" to "alii"

    (It's really that important!)

    P.S. I'm not at all belittling the significance of the EB team or the Latin language.

  4. #34
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    This is still being reviewed.

    We do take it seriously but the most effort is going into EBII, and we do have jobs/degree/papers to mark etc.
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  5. #35
    Sharp/Charismatic/Languorous Member Novellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    I apologize. I can see that my tone implied belittlement of the conversation. It just seemed unusual that the translation hadn't been discussed earlier like this.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Senior Member Tellos Athenaios's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Yeah, for instance I STILL have to finish some other to-Ancient-Greek translations, and I'm sure they will require extensive error-checking by my colleagues... and those have been on the shelf for ~2 releases or so?
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  7. #37
    Member Member Gleemonex's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Besides which, we're not yet sure whether it's even wrong...

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  8. #38

    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    I was thinking about the mottoo too, because I thought the syntaxis was not correct. I think that barbarus should be replaced with an acussative form: "barbarum". Quisque est (esse perhaps?) barbarum alii.

  9. #39
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    The verb esse does not take a direct object; therefore, babarus is nominative.
    Last edited by abou; 08-24-2009 at 02:03.

  10. #40
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by I Am Herenow View Post
    Good news, everyone.

    According to the Pocket Oxford Latin computer programme, alio is either an adverb ("to another place; to another subject; to another purpose" or the "singular dat/abl masc/neut" of the adjective alius, alia, aliud ("another, different, changed; alius ... alius: one ... another"). Alii, meanwhile, is either the "singular genitive masc/neut" or the "plural nominative masculine" of alius, alia, aliud (same source). So it seems the quote was correct all along.

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    I found this on an internal discussion of this issue, which seems to settle it.
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  11. #41
    Member Member Andros Antonius's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes

  12. #42
    Senior Member Senior Member Tellos Athenaios's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andros Antonius View Post
    you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes
    Two i's. For an idea, you could listen to the Latin Voicemod: Triarii!
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  13. #43
    lictor Member Urg's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Alii is pronounced al-ee-ee (say it quickly). I'm not entirely sure whether the emphasis should be on the middle or the final 'ee', although I'm tempted to suggest the final one.

    And the 'a' is pronounced like the a in "arm", not the a in "apple".

  14. #44
    lictor Member Urg's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by oudysseos View Post
    I found this on an internal discussion of this issue, which seems to settle it.
    By the way, thanks for posting this Oudy. I know this has been discussed before but it was never really resolved. Like you, I still think the quote used in the current mod uses correct Latin. It would be disappointing to see it changed simply because on a very basic Latin analysis alio appears to be an incorrect declension of the adjective.

  15. #45
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andros Antonius View Post
    you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes
    Further to this, how is the whole quote pronounced? I have very limited latin but I tend to read it as:

    Kiss-kay est barba-rus al-ee-oh

    That turned out to be harder to type than I thought.... How correct am I with my pronunciation?
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  16. #46
    Guitar God Member Mediolanicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    [Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).
    Last edited by Mediolanicus; 08-26-2009 at 17:28.
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  17. #47
    lictor Member Urg's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mediolanicus View Post
    [Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).
    Yeah, I agree with him ^. Perfect pronunciation!

    Always pleasantly surprised at how broad + deep the knowledge is in this place!

  18. #48
    Member Member Andros Antonius's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    yeah, al-ee-ee makes the most sense to me

    and isn't a u after a q in latin pronounced as a v? or is qvisqve not the right way to spell it? i know alot of times they're spelled that way, but the v isn't usually pronounced is it
    Last edited by Andros Antonius; 08-28-2009 at 03:59.

  19. #49
    Guitar God Member Mediolanicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andros Antonius View Post
    yeah, al-ee-ee makes the most sense to me

    and isn't a u after a q in latin pronounced as a v? or is qvisqve not the right way to spell it? i know alot of times they're spelled that way, but the v isn't usually pronounced is it
    The Latin v = our modern v, u and w; depending on the word.

    And it's a-lee-oo, not "al-..."
    Last edited by Mediolanicus; 08-28-2009 at 08:04.
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  20. #50
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mediolanicus View Post
    [Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).
    Great, thanks. I had it right except for the barbarus part. You are much better at writing pronunciation in text.
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  21. #51
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mediolanicus View Post
    The Latin v = our modern v, u and w; depending on the word.

    And it's a-lee-oo, not "al-..."
    Latin "v" is really better understood as "u" until around 200 AD, at which time consonental and vowel diverge further.
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  22. #52

    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Correctly it would be

    Unusquisque est barbarvs alii.

    Alii is the classical dative form.

    Quisque can only stand in combination with reflexive pronomes or superlatives.

    Otherwise it would need to have the Unus- augment.

    In ancient greek it sound much more sophisticated anyways.

    :)

  23. #53
    Member Member General Aetius's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    And thus, the necromancer raised his hand and called forth armies of undead...
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  24. #54
    Athena's favorite Member Vlixes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Urg View Post
    I don't think its a mistake.

    My latin dictionary says "alio" is an adverb (not a declension of alius, which is an adjective) which means "to someone/someplace else". I think it was a relatively common latin word.
    An adverb will make no sense. Definitely is a mistake.
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  25. #55
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Alio is the correct dative in archaic latin. The language in use at the start date and for two of the three centuries covered by EB...
    Last edited by Arjos; 03-31-2013 at 10:48.

  26. #56
    Athena's favorite Member Vlixes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    Alio is the correct dative in archaic latin. The language in use at the start date and for two of the three centuries covered by EB...
    Where can I see this?
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  27. #57
    Tribunus Plebis Member Gaius Scribonius Curio's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    According to the Lewis and Short dictionary the older version of the dative is found in Plautus (f. ~230 BCE). Furthermore, from the same source, the adverb alio is based on an old dative form, not the ablative you would expect, meaning 'elsewhere' or 'to another person or thing' similar to the Greek 'allose'.

    Similarly, on 'quisque' the Lewis and Short states 'often used with reflexive se, suus'. On the other hand, often is not always, and it not necessary to do so.
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  28. #58
    Member Member Bel Matina's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    incidentally...

    reconstructed Gallo-Brythonic "papos est allotoutos aliu"

    reconstructed Proto-Germanic "mannz ist unkunyaz antherammu"

  29. #59
    Member Member Gabriel Oi Taurisia's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Quisque est barbarus alio"

    It's kind of strange to reawake a four year-old thread, but I wanted to note that alio may actually be correct.

    Putting aside what alio meant in medieval vulgar Latin, let us focus on the standard Classical Latin; in particular, on what the ablative case, in the Classical Era, could mean in a sentence. Back then, Alio was indeed the ablative case of Alius, i.e. someone else.

    Here is a list of the meanings that an ablative-inflected word can have in a sentence, always referring to the word alio:
    Cause - i.e. the expression because of someone else
    Means - i.e. the expressions by means of someone else, or through someone else
    Time - Using the word vesper, the sentence "He arrived in Rome in the evening" would translate "Vespro Romam venit", in which the
    ablative case of vesper (vespro) is used. Alio can't of course be used with such a meaning.
    But there's still another meaning, which is what may interest the famous EB subheading.
    An ablative can also mean "according to"; thus, alio can signify "according to someone else", which is what we look for.

    Surely, if what we want to say is "to someone else", in Classical Latin, the right word is alii, i.e. the dative case. But, as aforementioned, alio can be used as well, albeit with a slight different meaning; a difference as slight as that between "to someone else" and "according to someone else".

    So, isn't Quisque est barbarus alio the right wording?

    A second note, about the pronunciation of the sentence. The English phonology is enormously different from that of Latin. As such, it is truly impossible to write an English expression with the absolute same pronunciation as that of Latin; be it the Classical (Restituta) or the Ecclesiastical one.

    The only way, for anyone - English, Italian, French speaker, whoever; although it may be easier for some - to know how a Latin phrase in pronounced, is reading its IPA transcription. The International Phonetic Alphabet is made exactly for this kind of purpose.

    A good IPA transcription would be /kwi:skwɛ ɛst ba:rbɐrʊs a:lio/; while the English transcription that was posted in this thread, which presents showy divergences, if spoken by a native English speaker has instead this sound: /kwɪskweɪ ɛstʰ ba:bəɹʊs a:liəʊ/. For an English native speaker, the highest hurdle would be speaking the trilled R (/r/) instead of the English /ɹ/ - or the vowels.
    Last edited by Gabriel Oi Taurisia; 09-08-2017 at 11:34.

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