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Thread: MTW DEADLY SINS

  1. #31
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    I just want to say two things:

    1. The Pause button enables awesome strategies and gameplans to be wrought (and not just thought). Ever seen/engaged in a battle without the pause button? In my experience, it's either a slaughter or a mess. If I wanted an indistinguishable battlefield scrum followed by a victory or defeat (with little knowledge of how either was achieved), I'd just play Rome or M2TW.

    I reject the notion that it's a sin.

    2. Bugger multiplayer! If I wanted to get pwned by Greyfox THAT much, I'd just mail him my arse so he could nail it to the wall and kick it whenever he was bored.

  2. #32
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    I thought I would "bump" this one ( which I came across a few days ago whilst running a search on Crusades ) as I have a few views of my own...

    1. Manual Pillaging

    I don’t believe it to be a sin just as long as you don’t use it systematically or constantly. Then it’s just an option you have and I think it’s great that you have that option even if you decide not to use it. Having a choice is always better than the other way around. Regardless, plundering is no stranger to war, why should it be so in MTW? Some limited plundering, I se no harm in that even if I almost never plunder myself. However, I would if I needed too – no doubt about that.

    My ruling: No sin – option. A bit shortsighted thou.
    No sin - it's historical after all ( even though I rarely use it ) !

    3. Mercenaries

    Again this is an option. Options are always good. My main dislike about mercenaries is that the AI doesn’t use them (it should from time to time do so I think). It also can also easily disrupt the game balance of the game - because it is an option that the AI never uses (unable to do so I’d guess).

    My ruling: No sin – option.
    No sin - I agree with the edited comments above...


    4. Disbanding

    I really have a hard time to buy this as a sin. It is an option and a great one at that. If you no longer can find a use for a unit you should have the right to disband it. And you should. It how you disband a unit and especially why you disband a unit that might leave possibilities for exploits that can be highly debatable.

    At any rate, disbanding troops is essentially a good option. Especially when X-number of unwanted rebel armies just joined your cause. It is how we use that option that can be highly debatable – and the fact that the AI should properly use it when it was called for.

    My ruling: No sin – option.
    Agreed. No sin.

    5. Dismounts

    Well…. The option of dismounting your troops when is called for (as in forest terrain for instance) can hardly be regarded as a sin. It is a question of using sound tactical thinking nothing else. The fact that CA have done a poor job in this area is not something that we the players should be punished for. The AI should more often use this option granted, but this is a tactical matter with obvious trade offs and if you are willing to pay that price – no problem. – Just checking, the AI do dismount in a siege or do I remember things wrong here?

    My ruling: No sin – good and tactical option (It makes cavalry units more diverse and versatile! A pity that the AI don’t use it now and then).
    Agreed - No sin ( although I have yet to use it ! ).

    6. Jihad spamming

    I am no expert on Jihads but it is true that you could have 20 jihads directed too one single province. We can all agree upon that it was hardly the plan with Jihads. The fact that someone would do so is just an obvious behavior of a power-gamer and no matter what we say or do – those guys just want to win and they don’t give a rat’s about having fun. So it’s a lost cause anyway. No one in their right mind would do that short of the power-gamer. It is such a mentality that is the sin not the possibility to build 20 Jihads. Now, as for the circumstances designed for Jihads in the original game they are obviously flawed. If nothing else they are too cheap and too easy to get them.

    My ruling: Yes, it is a sin to spam Jihads…. (It is also a sin when the AI uses crusades or jihads to more or less self-destruct a faction into civil-war).
    Agreed - SIN !!!


    8. The PAUSE button!

    Ah yes… The infamous pause button…. Well I can’t see the sin in it as a function and option; instead I think it is great that we have this possibility. It is entirely a question of how you use this option and nothing else. Constant and systematic usage of the pause button will undoubtedly change the experience of battle and make it a lot less intense, no doubts there and it sure won’t be the same as unpaused battles – apart from the fact that things will get a lot easier. Now, I will fully admit that I use the pause button now and then for two major reasons. 1. I need or want make a pause from the game. 2. I want to know what actually happens in the game so I pause and have a look. I see no sin in that. To many crappy games live high on the fact that we are not allowed to be aware what actually happens there. I personally think that it just sucks and that it is not the trademark of a good game at all.

    Rest assured that the AI knows all the time what happens and acts along that, so I think that it is only fair that I will have the same circumstance myself once in a while. Why should I have crappier circumstances to operate than the AI? I can’t see how that adds up to a good game. Anyway, I don’t use the pause button that often, because I don’t need too, but sometimes it can be very relieving to just slow down for a few minutes and just consider the overall situation in battle. The AI does that more or less instantly, apart from us, so it has the advantage over us in that sense. The thing is that it is not as adaptive as we tend to be and that is its weakness. To me it is important to be allowed to play a game in the tempo you prefer not what the game-designers prefer. It can be abused no doubt, but so can almost everything.

    My ruling: No sin – excellent option. Use at you convenience.
    Agreed - No sin.
    Hell, I doubt if I could win a battle without it !!! The AI can compute and action orders and movements way faster than I could even dream of. Therefore this just evens things out.
    [ I view it as : a ) unit commanders taking "executive" decisions as and when required, and b) a means to review the entire field of action as ( unlike the AI ) I cannot be in more than one place at once !
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 21:18.

  3. #33
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    2. Systematic Prisoner Execution - Ransom refusal

    ....my AI often refuses to buy prisoners, and has sometimes denied me the chance to ransom my own men! Indeed, the screen simply never appears!

    Nonetheless, as you mention there are disadvantages for both mercy and cold-blooded murder.

    With the use of mercy, one receives money and can in fact witness civil war within the enemy, but also returns a considerable part of their military to them at times. When one is cold-blooded, the general starts on a road to moral loss within the army, he is denied ransom money, the chance of starting a civil-war, and also he frees the enemy revenue for the maintainence of new troops.

    There are circumstance fair for both decisions, and the AI is given the same choice apparently.
    As the AI appears to get the same choice/s as the player ( witnessed - as first quoted line above ), how can this be a sin ??
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 22:17.

  4. #34
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Deadly Sins

    7. The Inquisition

    The AI doesn't usually train ten Grand Inquisitors and send them around and about burning everyone elses royalty. Need I say more? The player should limit himself to 1 GInq and 2 Inq at any one time. I myself have modded out GInqs and made Inqs papacy only. This way you actually always come up against them rather than deploy them yourself.
    Agreed - SIN !
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 22:17.

  5. #35
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS


    10. Using armour and weapon upgrades. Esp. armour upgrades destroy the unit balance.

    11. Using better generals than the computer. I find the system of adding valour effects from command stars destroys the gameplay in many situations.
    Completely disagree re both...

    [ These are both integral to the game system - so how can they be sins ??? ]
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 22:20.

  6. #36
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS


    12. Auto-Saving between battles.

    This can be a poorly abused exploit for players who simply can't accept defeat, and return to battles mid-turn in order to play in the same circumstances with advantaged knowledge.
    I only use it when there is a chance of crashing, or power-failure, but I have seen many players admit of using the saves, like all others, to play constantly through the same scenario until they win it through.
    How sore! How sinful!
    As quoted - very sinful, if not just plain cheating...

    [ Apart from pre-battle saves ( on the deployment screen ) to circumvent possible Crashes !! ]
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 22:18.

  7. #37
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    The pre battle save is as much of an exploit as the pre battle screen itself. The shuffling of reinforcements is something that the AI cannot do, it has to go into battle with the starting line up that it's given (this is how it worked in MTW 1.1 and in STW). I find that if I can shuffle my reinforcements around and dismout my troops, I can win any battle. I've won battles against the GH in this way when outnumbered three to one. I had mostly spears, bows and arbalests with some flanking units and fast cavarly in the starting line up. My archers were queued up in batches to come on when required to replace those that had run out of ammo. Replacement spears would be well down the list as they are needed later. I would have batches of cavalry and flankers in between the missiles to replace tired units. When you have this kind of organisation and you're camped on a nice hill, taking on the GH is a turkey shoot. This is why I'd add the "pre battle reinforcements shuffler" to the list.
    I disagree on both points.

    a) My pre-battle save comment/s have been posted in the previous post. The Sin is to change anything after loading the save simply because you lost the battle or had too many losses and you wish to refight it !!! If the game crashed, and only then ; I would make a very minor change like swapping two of the units around in their boxes ( both on or both off "map" ) to encourage the game to not crash after re loading it.

    b) The units that the AI places in the "deployment" area ( when I have 17+ units available ) are usually NOT those that I had in my 16 unit main army ( and rarely those that I would have chosen for my first 16 either ). I believe the AI chooses the order of it's unit's ( as well as yours ! ) and therefore you should get to chose your order too.

    [ I have witnessed approx. 36 units being siphoned off from a 7 army total of approx. 84 units, and sorted into a deployed battle army plus reserves. I then decided to retreat and avoid the battle, whereupon the "36" units were reset back onto the map into 3 medium sized armies. Not one of those 3 armies matched the battle deployed army at all, with 7 archers (Mongol Warriors) in the deployment being notably spread "evenly" between the said 3 armies. Hence the AI ( IMHO ) deploys / orders and you should be able to do so also. No sin. ]
    Last edited by DEB8; 04-19-2017 at 22:23.

  8. #38
    Ja mata, TosaInu Moderator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    I disagree with the disbanding part - it kind of limits you if you have a large garrison and it's pointless, just disband the units especially if they're not of big use.
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  9. #39
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    I disagree with the disbanding part - it kind of limits you if you have a large garrison and it's pointless, just disband the units especially if they're not of big use.
    One more necessity of disbanding is when the general heading the unit has low loyalty, so you disband the unit to prevent it from revolting.

  10. #40
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    One more necessity of disbanding is when the general heading the unit has low loyalty, so you disband the unit to prevent it from revolting.
    Whilst I completely understand why this would be done ( and I may have done this myself on one or two occasions... ) , this could be a sin ( particularly when playing a MTW campaign rather than a VI campaign ) !

    [ NB : Perchance less so, if the unit is a Mercenary ! ]

  11. #41
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    DEB8 said: Agreed - No sin.
    Hell, I doubt if I could win a battle without it !!! The AI can compute and action orders and movements way faster than I could even dream of. Therefore this just evens things out.
    [ I view it as : a ) unit commanders taking "executive" decisions as and when required, and b) a means to review the entire field of action as ( unlike the AI ) I cannot be in more than one place at once !


    Besides that, trying to click on a moving target is just plain silly. Most commanders can trust their lieutenants but the game takes everything completely literal so unit movements have to be baby sitted.

  12. #42
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    Quote Originally Posted by DEB8 View Post
    Whilst I completely understand why this would be done ( and I may have done this myself on one or two occasions... ) , this could be a sin ( particularly when playing a MTW campaign rather than a VI campaign ) !

    [ NB : Perchance less so, if the unit is a Mercenary ! ]
    Middle ages were all about committing sins and atoning for them. So I root for being as authentic as possible.

  13. #43
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    The pause button is essential to sanity -- how else can you find the time to make another cup of coffee whilst there are still 10,000 enemy soldiers left to kill

    And this:

    trying to click on a moving target
    really bugs me. When things get crowded it's almost impossible to 'pick up' the unit you want, or accidentally point it at the wrong target because there's a stray man from another enemy unit in the midst of the one you wish to target....

    Most of the other 'sins' I tend to role-play rather than have fixed rules. If my general dies, for instance, the prisoners get it in the neck, but generally I only massacre prisoners if I have more than 1,000 of them. This means the general goes straight to 'butcher' without passing 'scant mercy' in the VnVs after the battle...

    As for the pillaging, I generally prefer to leave provinces as intact as I find them, if I intend to keep the province immediately, but there are times when I'm up against a big enemy faction, I might launch a chevauchee into a vulnerbale province which I can't hope to hold - preferably forcing the AI to retreat completely (best chance is to overwhelm their king's army...) then I can trash the province before returning to my secure borders. However, even then it's a role-played thing for when I'm in a tough spot. And I always have the rule that I NEVER trash the economic infrastructure - so farms, merchants and mines are spared the torch.

    Setting up the re-inforcement grid is also not a sin in my book - if a big army goes into battle it will often be divided into different columns or battles before meeting the enemy, so it's effectively a way to designate your van, main battle, reserves, and rearguard. Interestingly, do you realise that in a battle where you have allies, you can also order the allies' reinforcement grid when their army is big enough? It can be a useful way to balance out your overall forces, if say you are short of cavalry, you can make your ally put in a first wave that has all of his cavalry deployed etc. I'd been playing for years before I discovered this can be done! (I also use this to keep his missiles out of the way if I fear he'll just shoot into the melee and kill as many of my men as the enemy's...)

    I don't disband much, usually just broken mercenary units that have become too small to be of use, or when a general has become so vice-ridden he is no longer fit to serve the king (cracked-brained cowards who are fond of retreating etc...)

    And of course that gives away that I sometimes use mercenaries, but only in extremis. In vanilla I might sometimes snaffle up any advance gunpowder units that crop up, as they come in very useful against the Mongols, especially for bridge battles. And talking of bridge battles, someone mentioned that the AI never attacks over the second bridge when available - yet it does somehow manage to defend a second bridge.... why is it blind in attack, but smarter in defence???

    And saving between battles... that for me is purely a practical issue - I've tried it, but found more times than not it either causes me a CTD or the save is corrupted when it doesn't CTD, so I only do a quick-save at the end of the turn, and a full save before launching a war at a new enemy.


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  14. #44
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    I use mercenaries at times too. There are times when you need your army now but it isn't ready yet so the mercenaries are hired then (yep) disbanded. Sometimes towns need large garrisons to keep the peace until things settle down but afterwards these militia units are not needed and, well, that's the whole point of militia - call them up when needed then disband them.

  15. #45
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post

    so I only do a quick-save at the end of the turn, and a full save before launching a war at a new enemy.
    How do you do the quick-save? When I need a save I press the Esc button to get to the menu and save the campaign. But sometimes the game crashes at this transition to the menu, so I lose a couple of years of campaigning just when I try to save to avoid it. Of course, if there was an autosave not long before, the losses are minimal, but you can never know when the AI will decide to autosave.

  16. #46
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    How do you do the quick-save?
    When you're on the campaign map, it's Ctrl-S, and Ctrl-L to load the latest quicksave. I got into to the habit because of the occasional crashes on hitting Esc to do the full save. Apart from the ones between battles, I find quicksaves are less prone to corruption than the full saves - probably because it's a different file type (IIRC .dat instead of .cpg). I find the Esc crash gets more likely with the more battles you've fought that year, but that could just be good ole Murphy, of course....


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  17. #47
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW DEADLY SINS

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    When you're on the campaign map, it's Ctrl-S, and Ctrl-L to load the latest quicksave.
    Thanks for the tip. Does the quick-saved campaign appear in the menu?

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