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Thread: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    First of all know this isn't an anti immigration thread or anything, don't let the title deceive you! More to the point it's a focus on something that I find really troubling and that is the myths that surround immigration. I'm going to use my country as an example, the UK but I'm sure your country can just as easily be applied to the debate.

    Anyway onwards to my point. My point is why is there such significant number of people who believe that immigration is rampantly out of control? the whole fear factor also links into this. I will use an example of me and my friends to show you what I mean.

    I read the paper every day without fail and from about the age of 15 took a keen interest in politics, I'm also well informed in the area. On the other hand a lot of people I hang around with rarely watch the news and their paper consists of tabloid trash like the sun. Anyway at the pub the other night, all though the scene can be replicated most weekends the topic some how went on to politics, or what I like to call politics, a very watered down drunk version of politics. As the debate moved on to immigration some of the things I was hearing were disgusting. Apart from that it was completely in factual. I then went on to ask my friends how many immigrants they thought there was in the country. The guesses raised from 5 million to as high as 10 million which I had to refrain myself from laughing at. The thing is though my friends aren't stupid, they're just not as clever in the area of politics but the frighting thing is they are probably just like every other person in this country. Well obviously not like everyone but at least a majority.

    The point im trying to make is when did the fear and facts about immigration become twisted? I know that immigration has been a sensitive issue for centuries but surely in today's society's we should have the resources to dispel such myths. I personally find it mind boggling that people, and by people I mean a lot of people believe the age old myth that immigrants are here to steel "our jobs". The reality of course is that they're here to do the jobs that no one else wants to do as we consider ourselves to good for those jobs. The myths surrounding immigrant crime also makes me feel mind boggled. At the end of the day who deserves to enjoy the benefits of our country more, A hard working immigrant or a lazy sod who thinks he doesn't have to work leaching of state resources?

    Anyway to finish what actions do you think can be taken to educate people on immigration? By educate I don't mean change peoples political ideology, I know some people have genuine concerns about immigration not based on myth but based on facts and concerns within their community.

    Basically what can be done to get rid of the false idea in many peoples minds that immigration is some how a terrible thing and that it's all a conspiracy to bring our institutions down as well as bringing mass crime with them and religious brain washing.

    By the way also note this is my personnel experience in the area I live. Some people may live in area where there is little tension between immigrant populations. My personnel expereince round here has always been that immigration is a big no no.
    Last edited by tibilicus; 01-10-2009 at 03:30.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    To stop fears around immigration IMO is twofold:

    Cut benefits that are paid to people. but reduce taxes for the poorest paid. Little is free, you only earn by working. jobs that people turn their noses up at as they get almost the same amount of money for doing nothing would become relatively attractive. There would be far fewer jobs that aren't filled, so less jobs to "steal".

    Most of the most inflammatory press is generated by families getting masses on benefits from having masses of children. Suddenly the government "needs" to provide a massive house and pay out thousands of pounds. The newspapers only need to find one example every couple of months to have it almost as a continually running story. If no one is entitled to this the problem will disappear.

    The other issue that fills up dead news time is illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. These are often interrelated with illegal immigrants seeking asylum when caught. To diffuse the issue there should be a quick way to return these unwanted to whence they came - if the prevalence and incidence can be reduced, less tabloid anger.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    The whole problem of immigration causes fear. For the people who see their country being taken over by others.

    They see their way of life changing because others have come. It is compounded when the others form nationalistic communities to preserve their culture in the new place. The locals ask, what did you come here for if you don’t plan on assimilating. The others are in a new place and a bit afraid. They try to cling to what they know while adjusting to the new place and ideas they are encountering. Over time they will form an amalgam of the cultures and both will become afraid when they see a new group coming in, then the whole process starts over again.

    Both parties add to the problem and both need time to adjust to the situation. One can but hope that the culture shift that results is clearly for the best.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    If someone fills up a gap fine but we need stricter rules. No use no entry.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    The reality of course is that they're here to do the jobs that no one else wants to do as we consider ourselves to good for those jobs.
    I tend to think that THAT is a myth just as well. I empty trash cans and collect trash myself in my job and I do not even really need the job to survive at the moment. Of course that means I am unnecessarily taking away an immigrant's job to enrich myself, I can litterally feel the evilness flowing through my veins.

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    The myths surrounding immigrant crime also makes me feel mind boggled. At the end of the day who deserves to enjoy the benefits of our country more, A hard working immigrant or a lazy sod who thinks he doesn't have to work leaching of state resources?
    I hope that doesn't mean immigrant violence is justified because they also work harder?
    Some of the "lazy sods who are leeching off state ressources" here are forced to do that because they had a job before but their boss decided he could hire an immigrant for the same work, pay him a whole lot less and let the "lazy sod" go into unemployment. Now this "lazy sod" put everything into that career and noone wants him anymore because other bosses did the same thing and already have an immigrant for that job, the "lazy sod" may now be old, lack a proper education for another job and has no chance to get into his old job or a similar job anymore, he goes to the pub because he is bitter and you hear him say the things you heard. Now the immigrant does some kind of slave labour while he feels privileged because for him that is actually a good thing compared with work in his home country, the "lazy sod" is bitter, frustrated and possibly ruined and gets angry at the "dirty immigrant" who has got his job now, you get upset over the stupidity of the "lazy sod" and post some old leftist bile about how all immigrants are the nicest people in the world and most of the western people are lazy xenophobic sods while the former boss of the "lazy sod" laughs his arse off because he raised the prices, lowered the costs, made himself and some rich shareholders even richer, screws over his customers and his employees and is completely ignored by everybody. You know, many of those immigrants may not really have considered coming here before they were recruited by the local companies because those companies saw they could save tons of money, so I blame neither the immigrants nor the local guys who lost their jobs to them, I blame the people who actually do that to make even more profits.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    There is a downward pressure on unskilled jobs. In Europe and most of the West education is free, so only hard work prevents one from being able to obtain skilled work.

    Many businesses that don't drive down wages will loose out to those that outsource to countries that have much lower wages.

    Businesses saving tons of money. So now it's a sin to have a successful business?

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Anyway onwards to my point. My point is why is there such significant number of people who believe that immigration is rampantly out of control?
    Palestine?

    The point im trying to make is when did the fear and facts about immigration become twisted? I know that immigration has been a sensitive issue for centuries
    Your falling for propaganda. There has only been significant immigration into the UK in my lifetime (50 years). I can remember seeing my first black man when I was about 7/8 years old. I was fascinated and got a thick ear from pater for staring.

    It's the sheer scale of immigration, particularly in the last 12 years that has changed. Anyway with our racist prime minister declaring 'British jobs for British workers' what would you expect from the hoi polloi?
    Last edited by InsaneApache; 01-10-2009 at 13:15.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    To use Britain as an example:

    Immigration is out of control, precisely because we do not implement control of immigration, something admitted by GB several years back when he stated that there was no upper limit on immigration, and confirmed by government projections that Britains population will rise to seventy million plus in less than a generation.
    To compound matters, because we have not previously controlled immigration we have not been able to select desirable immigrants, we have instead received all manner of dross along with the gold.

    This does not mean that Britain at large suffers from problems of immigration, because the majority of immigrants are concentrated in the major cities, and the majority of those immigrants who are poor and minimally educated/skilled end up concentrated in the 'slums' of Britain.
    It is those residents of the poor housing estates of Britain who genuinely suffer the ill effects of uncontrolled immigration; the poor with few job prospects, with little ability to move, and little reward to life except the community they live within suddenly find themselves cheek by jowel with people who compete for the same jobs and dilute the same community on which poor Britians depend.

    So in short, uncontrolled immigration hurts the most vulnerable, those who are powerless to escape from its effects.
    It doesn't effect me, i am educated with a science degree, a business masters, along with five A-levels and ten GCSE's, I have work experience that includes helping setting up a company that was valued at £1.7M by Grant Thorntons, as well as experience working as a skilled 3D artist, and i live in a remote and rural town little affected by immigration with the exception of the polish, one of whom is my girlfriend. If i have a problem i can move, because someone will want my skills in a place i want to live, but not everyone has those options.

    I'm guessing that you are in a similar position my young friend, but without the wisdom accrued from age to realise that we are not typical, and that people on council estates really do have hard lives that silly liberals from our 'class' only make worse with all our shiny liberal ideas.

    So yes, I am all in favour of strictly controlled and limited immigration in Britian that discriminates between those we want and those we do not.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-11-2009 at 13:46.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Immigrants are no bad thing, let me state that right off.

    However, the current situation in the UK is untennable. We are full, we are out of space; this is no longer a fact that can be hidden. Oh, we have plenty of free land but if we build houses on it we can't grow crops or raise animals. Being in a situation where we have to import all our food is unacceptable, it would be bad enough if we were still the greatest Empire in the world, as a mere nation-state it would be placing one foot in the grave. Our welfare state is under presure because the baby-boomers are about to retire, so we need a larger work force, says the government.

    The government has been trying to grow the workforce like the economy, and we all know how that worked out.

    Te immigrants coming into the country are breeding at about ten times the local population, there are taking over whole boroughs, not streets and they are placing an unacceptable stree, not only on our culture, but on our infastructre. As IA says, the pace is unprecedented and the effects are already beggining to tell. Civil unrest, far-right politicians gaining traction, and a general decrease in tollerance for other cultures.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post

    The myths surrounding immigrant crime also makes me feel mind boggled. At the end of the day who deserves to enjoy the benefits of our country more, A hard working immigrant or a lazy sod who thinks he doesn't have to work leaching of state resources?
    the point about immigrant crime is that a British person has the right to commit crime in Britain (and to be punished for it), but why the hell should we invite a foreign national over here, only for them to make life a misery for the locals!?!?
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    However, the current situation in the UK is untennable. We are full, we are out of space; this is no longer a fact that can be hidden.
    Oh boy what to say, if you think the UK is full

    There are some problems here but it ain't so bad, political correctness isn't fashionable anymore things are going to be fine. The UK, I dunno you guys are insane if I may say so, nobody here would put up with that.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    50 years ago 4% of the population of UK was born overseas.
    Now it is 8%.

    Australia is about 25% born overseas.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    But Australia is pretty selective with regard to who may immigrate, isn't it?

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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    50 years ago 4% of the population of UK was born overseas.
    Now it is 8%.

    Australia is about 25% born overseas.
    Didn't you have riots in recent years over the immigration issue or something connected to it?

    So do most British people here see immigration as "to much" in the UK?

    To be honest as long as some one who is hard working and born here can still get a job when they please I see no problem. The day that it starts to change the political landscape however is the day I think there will be a problem. Basically people who immigrate as first generation immigrants being granted British citizenship and then voting for parties which overly favour therm.


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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    So do most British people here see immigration as "to much" in the UK?

    To be honest as long as some one who is hard working and born here can still get a job when they please I see no problem. The day that it starts to change the political landscape however is the day I think there will be a problem.
    yes, see above.

    like inner-city working class labour voters changing to BNP?
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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post

    like inner-city working class labour voters changing to BNP?
    Sort of like that but also immigrants voting for political parties which will offer lax immigration policies and favourable terms for them as well as a dynamic of people turning to far right parties.


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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    50 years ago 4% of the population of UK was born overseas.
    Now it is 8%.

    Australia is about 25% born overseas.
    Yes, but Australia is much larger and has a much lower population density, even then there have been problems in recent years. The current Labour government over there has also only just started relaxing immigration, give it another five to ten years and see what happens.
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    Didn't you have riots in recent years over the immigration issue or something connected to it?

    So do most British people here see immigration as "to much" in the UK?

    To be honest as long as some one who is hard working and born here can still get a job when they please I see no problem. The day that it starts to change the political landscape however is the day I think there will be a problem. Basically people who immigrate as first generation immigrants being granted British citizenship and then voting for parties which overly favour therm.
    Then we have a problem, on both counts. You know, something like 80% of the new jobs created by Labour were filled by immigrants. The government, at least the last three, has led people to expect a certain quality of life. Now, either that is an unrealistic quality of life, in which case stanards for UK workers should fall; or it isn't, in which case immigrants should be offered better deals and the playing field would thus be level.

    Currently we are effectively importing an underclass to do our dirty work.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Businesses saving tons of money. So now it's a sin to have a successful business?

    If it's built on the suffering of others I'm inclined to say yes. It's also a bit stupid in the long run because now some businesses wonder why noone is buying their stuff anymore. Maybe because all those potential buyers are unemployed? Well, can always get a bailout from the taxpayers, wait, unemployed people don't pay taxes either, they receive tax money as well. Where could it possibly end?
    Even more successful businesses of course.


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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    That, Sir, is quite a neat point. Unfortunately we need to export in order for the country to become more wealthy. So, either we become more profitable, orwe make our competitors less profitable. Raising standards in the 3rd World would theoretically level the playingfield. The problem with that is that the world economy relies on someone getting screwed over, and always has.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane View Post
    But Australia is pretty selective with regard to who may immigrate, isn't it?
    http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statist...ts/migrant.htm

    158k people immigrated to Australia last year, not including New Zealanders (Aus Total pop 21 million).

    Having a skill is the key way of gaining entry (2/3s) the rest are family members.

    Countries of birth for the 4.9 million at the bottom of this wiki entry: Demography of Australia

    =][=

    As for the riots it was a public shame, and NSW was lampooned by other Australian states for it. Then again we have bigger riots with unemployed housing estate kids who are bored witless or post Christmas sales.

    More seriously, yes there are very real frictions between some groups. The interesting thing is the maturity with which the seasoned adults helped cool the heels of the young troublemakers, dialogue opened up and long term solutions were found. Burqini

    =][=

    Vast majority of Australians live in cities... I think about 90%. Population densities in cities are bout half that of most equivalent cities due to urban sprawl.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 01-11-2009 at 22:47.
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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statist...ts/migrant.htm

    158k people immigrated to Australia last year, not including New Zealanders (Aus Total pop 21 million).

    Having a skill is the key way of gaining entry (2/3s) the rest are family members.

    Countries of birth for the 4.9 million at the bottom of this wiki entry: Demography of Australia

    =][=

    As for the riots it was a public shame, and NSW was lampooned by other Australian states for it. Then again we have bigger riots with unemployed housing estate kids who are bored witless or post Christmas sales.

    More seriously, yes there are very real frictions between some groups. The interesting thing is the maturity with which the seasoned adults helped cool the heels of the young troublemakers, dialogue opened up and long term solutions were found. Burqini

    =][=

    Vast majority of Australians live in cities... I think about 90%. Population densities in cities are bout half that of most equivalent cities due to urban sprawl.
    Australia uses a points system right? Whereby a way of proving your a skilled worker?


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The problem with that is that the world economy relies on someone getting screwed over, and always has.
    Exactly, and that is why I don't accept anyone telling me not to complain about businesses as I have all the same right to screw over businesses to enrich myself as they do trying to screw me to make more profits. So I do not sympathize with businesses as their undoing is my profit.
    Including the business I'm working in of course, if they make red numbers because I get too much in wages, it's all for my own benefit.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    The world isn't zero sum.

    New businesses that recycle waste for a profit are improving the place as well as making money; new technologies often help find new ways of doing things or new things entirely - devices that harness wave power (if they get them to work) will found a new business making, selling and repairing them as well as helping reduce waves which in itself it a positive thing. Other uses have been to help spread nutrients in sea water to help the growth rates of aquatic fauna and flora.

    The economy is an ecosystem. Over time it can change, but it is best for all if the components are "healthy". Companies made inefficient in the medium to long term are detrimental to all and in the short term only benefit a few who are the root cause be it leveraged takover or unproductive employees.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    In all the years that I ran a business I never screwed anyone over. I regard it as unprofessional. In fact I looked after my customers, especially the regular ones.

    Still, what would I know?
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    I was talking globally, rather than inter-business level. As one country rises, another falls. Britain, then America, now America may be on the slide and Russia has recently taken advantage of that.

    I don't like it, I think it sucks, but I'm enough of a realist to recognise that in order for there to be people on top there need to be people on the bottom.

    My overall point was that we have been trying to import our bottom rung from places that are even worse off. So bottom rung in Britain is still better than mid-rung where you were.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  27. #27
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    True to a point. But in the Phillipines over 10% of GDP is money sent home. People can come to a different country and earn a wage that helps support several people back home. Both gain from the situation.

    Of course there is always going to be social inequality. Anywhere that tries to do away with that fails. I had to work bloody hard to get to be where I am. If my salary would have been the same as a postman's, then I'd kick back and take it easy.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I was talking globally, rather than inter-business level. As one country rises, another falls. Britain, then America, now America may be on the slide and Russia has recently taken advantage of that.
    Yes on a country to country ladder they might swap places.

    But compare the average life span and life style of those people with their parents and their grandparents.

    If someone wants to they can have access to more information and understanding of the universe then the emperors of old. They can eat more kinds of foods from far away places then the Roman banquets. Yes Britain may no longer be the center of the British Empire, but its people are far better off then they were as a whole in the Victorian age.
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  29. #29
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    That just means we have collectively moved up the ladder, it certainly doesn't change the immense suffering in Africa where tribal warfare has become slaughter through the introduction of modern weapons.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration,immigration,immigration..

    Africa is Africa's problem.

    In 100 years time they'll still be blaming everything on the time the Europeans caused all ills.

    The Tutsis and Hutus slaughtered 500,000 in c. 10 days with machetes and the like. The problem isn't the weaponry, it's the inhabitants.

    Maybe 150 years ago Europe in all its arrogance would have gone to try to "sort out" the problem.

    Imposing imperialistic rules and laws isn't the modern way; we should trade with them and leave the politics to themselves.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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