Will ETW retail be a standalone version (no Steam install)?

[Monk]

...


That said.


I think to better understand steam and help the fan community a



DEMO



Should clearly be released

Agreed!

[Husar]

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

Well, I'm one of those who haven't had any major issues with Steam, it could be better but it isn't exactly bad as it is IMO.

[Martok]

And I'm going to say this again, an in depth discussion on DRM does not belong in this thread. I'm sure if we keep going off topic like this that the thread will eventually be locked or moved. Let's stick to direct questions about Steam, and leave the discussion of in-depth stuff for somewhere else.

Indeed. Let's please keep this thread focused on Steam as it will/may affect Empire. More general/specific discussions of DRM belong in the Arena or Backroom.

I think for me personally, my biggest concern is exactly how much of my CPU Steam is going to use. Given that my computer is -- by this point -- no longer considered "robust" (my processor is only a 2.2 Ghz dual-core), this is a non-trivial consideration for me.

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

I have to confess, the first time I read that, I thought you were serious. I was worried about you for a second there....

[peacemaker]

ive never had any experience with steam, this will be its first test with me to see if I like it......but again, I'm still confused. Can I play ETW singleplayer if I have no current internet connection(I think i heard somewhere about offline mode on steam)?

[Polemists]

Can I play ETW singleplayer if I have no current internet connection(I think i heard somewhere about offline mode on steam)?

Yes, and no.

Confusing I know.

Yes you can play ETW singleplayer offline.

No, because you must be able to get online (either at home , or friends pc) to activate it.


Our best guess is once activated you don't have to be online anymore to play it.


Thought without a


DEMO


We can't really know *HINT HINT CA*

[pevergreen]

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

So this is why CountArach cries to me late at night about you not loving him.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Steam is required to be on the PC after the first activation. To play the game you boot up Steam in offline mode, and then run the game through it.

Translation: Higher CPU utilization and slower response times, just like Vista.

I think now I understand why the CPU requirements are so high for ETW - everything has to be run through Steam client.

[Jack Lusted]

Steam uses minimal RAM and little to no CPU when running, it is used to launch the game and it merely runs in the background. It uses about as much system resources as MSN messenger, it is hardly going to impact game performance.

[Polemists]

Steam uses minimal RAM and little to no CPU when running, it is used to launch the game and it merely runs in the background. It uses about as much system resources as MSN messenger, it is hardly going to impact game performance.

Wait? So it's not just for activation? We have to get on it every time we launch the game? Won't that require constant internet?

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Can Valve go through and see private details? You are kidding yourself, dear sir.

(Dear sir? While I appreciate the kind words, there's no need to stand on ceremony, we're all just gamers here. )

You are the one kidding yourself, if you can't see that Valve will have access to every piece of information captured in the "account creation process". Name and email address at a minimum which is enough to do outbound marketing.

And if Valve/Steam is acting as the repository for online gameplay, they will also have information about all your online interactions as well.

If you read Steam's "subscriber agreement" closely, it gives Steam the right to automatically install any software they want onto your PC without requiring your permission, or notifying you that they have done such an install. The agreement also gives them the right to terminate your access to play ETW for any reason at any time. And if the Steam software ends up causing any problems on your PC, the agreement says that Steam has no liability...

Here's a link to the Steam agreement: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Steam is basically a form of spyware, from what I can tell.

[Jack Lusted]

Wait? So it's not just for activation? We have to get on it every time we launch the game? Won't that require constant internet?

You can have Steam connected to the internet or running in offline mode once you've installed Empire, but Steam must be running to run the game.

[Sir Beane]

Wait? So it's not just for activation? We have to get on it every time we launch the game? Won't that require constant internet?

No, because Steam has an offline mode. You boot it up in offline mode and then launch Empire. So long as Steam is installed you don't need regular intenrnet access at all.

Did anybody read my posts regarding how Steam works?

@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

Are you really that determined to see Steam as a threat? I understand if you don't want to install something like that on your computer but calling it spyware is a bit harsh. Steam doesn't do anything that say, MSN messenger or anything else you sign up for with a name and e-mail does. As for the EULA agreement? Those things aren't even legally binding, if Steam really does break your PC, and you can prove it, they will be at fault.

I'm pretty certain that every company on the internet already has my (and your) e-mail, and I don't care if they get my name, since I signed up to Steam with the name Beane.

This is all beginning to sound like some kind of conspiracy theory.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

You can have Steam connected to the internet or running in offline mode once you've installed Empire, but Steam must be running to run the game.

I see that you have CA logo as your avatar -are you from CA?

You guys are not worried that Valve/Steam will have a detailed profile of every single ETW customer after ETW ships? Are they precluded from selling that information or using it to market their own products? What if Valve is acquired?

And are you guys concerned that having Steam always running in the background burning CPU cycles will negatively affect gameplay?

[Polemists]

So I can have steam in offline mode....whew....had me worried there.

[Jack Lusted]

I see that you have CA logo as your avatar -are you from CA?

Yes.

You guys are not worried that Valve/Steam will have a detailed profile of every single ETW customer after ETW ships? Are they precluded from selling that information or using it to market their own products? What if Valve is acquired?

Over 15 million people use Steam for a huge variety of games. Personally in the 3 years I have been using Steam I have never received any form of marketing email from Valve, and I know of no one who has.

And are you guys concerned that having Steam always running in the background burning CPU cycles will negatively affect gameplay?

I have very rarely seen Steam using any cpu cycles, and I've been using it since 2006. As I said above, it uses about the same amount of system resources when running as MSN messenger.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Are you really that determined to see Steam as a threat? I understand if you don't want to install something like that on your computer but calling it spyware is a bit harsh. Steam doesn't do anything that say, MSN messenger or anything else you sign up for with a name and e-mail does. As for the EULA agreement? Those things aren't even legally binding, if Steam really does break your PC, and you can prove it, they will be at fault.

Here in the US, the sections of the Steam agreement that pertain to Steam giving themselves the right to download any software they want onto your PC are legally binding. I see you are in the UK, I'm not sure about the laws there.

It's not a "conspiracy theory", it's what Steam has written into the agreement. The fact that it's in the agreement means that Steam paid lawyers some money to get it in there - it's not in there by accident, it's there because someone at Steam wanted to put it in. It's kind of preposterous of you to try and argue that EULAs are non-binding when virtually every sofware company in the world spends considerable time and money making sure that they have EULAs for every application they ship.

Isn't downloading pieces software onto users' PCs without their specific consent the definition of spyware? Or maybe a better word would be "trojan"?

Maybe you should read the Steam agreement, so you understand where I am coming from: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

[Polemists]

You know Jack.....may I call you jack.....we would all understand how steam works alot more.....if we had...........a demo

[Luddite]

As someone without connection, and having to put in a lot of blood sweat and tears to run the game I still broadly support Steam usage mainly on the basis of discussions I have seen on these forums regarding the alternatives and the communities broad preference for this over any other.

I think that DRM is probably a second strand to Steam's choice, as the software business model looks to be moving more to a portal based software provision (just look at google).

In answer to the legitimate concerns that people are raising about system resources, when I started gaming it was normal to run games from the DOS prompt, windows 3.1 was just another program. I resisted 95 when it launch because I resented the performance hit on my system, but as it became standard you have the choice, get it and play, or don't. Ultimately with its functionality in on-line support for patching and mods and a general trend for increased connectivity in the buying public, Steam and it's successors will probably become as ubiquitous. We are simply left with a the choice (in relation to the model), use it and play, or don't.

[Sir Beane]

You know Jack.....may I call you jack.....we would all understand how steam works alot more.....if we had...........a demo

If you keep asking for that demo someone at CA is going to give the order to have you 'disposed of'.

@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

I have read the agreement,and I stand by what I said about it not being legally binding. End User License Agreements which are agreed to by clicking on a tickbox would be extremely hard to legally enforce. As far as I know no games company has ever actually attempted to prosecute someone for breaking an EULA, and would probably not succeed if they did.

It may suprise you, but companies say all kinds of things that they cannot legally enforce.

Have you ever seen a 'no refunds' sign in a shop? I have in the UK, despite the fact that this is illegal under fair trading laws. A car park which claims that you 'park here at your own risk' is wrong, if your car is damaged then they can be held responsible.

Recently EA games has found itself at the end of a class action lawsuit because it did something that it's EULA say's is fine. The lawyers on the side of the customers disagree however.

Even if Valve say they can install pieces of software without your consent, they cannot, and will not.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

I have read the agreement,and I stand by what I said about it not being legally binding. End User License Agreements which are agreed to by clicking on a tickbox would be extremely hard to legally enforce. As far as I know no games company has ever actually attempted to prosecute someone for breaking an EULA, and would probably not succeed if they did.

So by your logic, it is legal for someone to disregard the ETW EULA and develop a crack for the game that bypasses the Steam DRM and distribute the game on bittorrent? Since the ETW agreement is non-binding?

[Sir Beane]

So by your logic, it is legal for someone to disregard the ETW EULA and develop a crack for the game that bypasses the Steam DRM and distribute the game on bittorrent? Since the ETW agreement is non-binding?

No, because that would violate international copyrite laws. It is, however, legal for me to install a game on more than one PC even though a gane's EULA likes to pretend I can only put the game I legally own on one of my computers.

[Polemists]

If you keep asking for that demo someone at CA is going to give the order to have you 'disposed of'.

I live in a far off land, CA has nothing on me :P, and we shall see who visits who if the demo dosn't come

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Yes.



Over 15 million people use Steam for a huge variety of games. Personally in the 3 years I have been using Steam I have never received any form of marketing email from Valve, and I know of no one who has.



I have very rarely seen Steam using any cpu cycles, and I've been using it since 2006. As I said above, it uses about the same amount of system resources when running as MSN messenger.

Interesting. Thanks for your feedback.

[Monk]

Hey guys.

I know that this is a topic that people like to discuss very passionately, but please, let's try to keep things civil. We don't want the lock crew* coming down on this thread.

Thanks for dropping in and shedding a bit of light on the subject Jack, we weren't sure if we would be able to play offline for a while there. I know it was at the forefront of many minds.

*Starring Martok and Nelson. This Fall on NBC

[Polemists]

I know that this is a topic that people like to discuss very passionately, but please, let's try to keep things civil. We don't want the lock crew* coming down on this thread.

Yes, people, let's keep our passions in check, let's not get out of control over wanting a single item..........

Okay who am I kidding.

Steam though seems okay since you don't have to be online to use it.

I guess it's like a launch window and has a offline mode.

I havn't used steam since Half Life 1 I think, or blue shift maybe so no idea.

[Sir Beane]

Yes, people, let's keep our passions in check, let's not get out of control over wanting a single item..........

Okay who am I kidding.

Steam though seems okay since you don't have to be online to use it.

I guess it's like a launch window and has a offline mode.

I havn't used steam since Half Life 1 I think, or blue shift maybe so no idea.

That's exactly what Steam is like. Boot up Steam in offline mode, browse list of games, pick a game, play. No disk required.

[Monk]

Yes, people, let's keep our passions in check, let's not get out of control over wanting a single item..........

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Even if Valve say they can install pieces of software without your consent, they cannot, and will not.

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that probably the tens of thousands of attorneys who draft EULAs for virtually every software company in the world (not to mention, the executives at those software companies) have a better understanding of the law than you do.

Here are the sections of the agreement ( http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ )that may be of interest:

This section of the Steam agreement gives Valve the right to automatically download any software they want onto your PC, once you've installed the Steam client:

2. LICENSES
A. License Terms.
Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of software and other content and updates onto your computer ("Steam Software"). You may not use Steam Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Steam Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Steam Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

This section of the Steam agreement gives Valve the right to use or resell data about ETW customers without CA or Sega's (or the end user's) approval:

7. USER GENERATED INFORMATION
"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Steam Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

[Martok]

It seems this thread has permanently drifted off the original topic. And since the original question has long since been answered anyway....