Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

  1. #1

    Default Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Well since I'm closed to the reform date line to get the Cataphracts as AS which will be best to recruit?

    Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi.

    Now I guess pretty obviously that the Cataphracts will have more range weapon resistance and staying power in melee

    But do Hetairoi do better?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The State of Jefferson, USA
    Posts
    5,722

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    I think the Kataphraktoi also have maces, so their secondary melee has the AP attribute, which is a nice bonus.
    Last edited by MarcusAureliusAntoninus; 01-29-2009 at 19:26.


  3. #3
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Heraklion, Crete, Greece
    Posts
    2,610

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Plus, don't forget their superior defense. IMO, the Kataphraktoi are better for a head-on charge and short-term melee, while the Hetairoi are better for longer terms of multiple charges and running around for various purposes except just charging head-on, in which they are no weaklings, mind you.

    Maion
    ~Maion

  4. #4
    amrtaka Member machinor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Austria 'n Italy
    Posts
    464

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Kataphraktoi have better armor/equipment, but Hetairoi have more stamina which equals more possible charges. Furthermore I had some bad experiences with the Kataphraktoi having relatively low morale. They get routed much more easily than Hetairoi, which kind of nullifies their close combat advantage.

    If I had to choose, I'd take Kataphraktoi if I need cavalry able to squish enemy infantry lines (kind of like a "Elephantes Light"); Hetairoi if I need good charging and fighting cavalry... an Alexandrinian heavy cavalry so to speak.
    Last edited by machinor; 01-29-2009 at 20:36.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheGreek View Post
    "Dahae always ride single file to hid their numbers, these tracks are side by side. And these arrow wounds, too accurate for Dahae, only Pahlavi Zradha Shivatir are so precise..."
    <-- My "From Basileion to Arche - A Makedonian AAR" Memorial Balloon.

  5. #5
    Guitar God Member Mediolanicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    On the banks of the Scaldis.
    Posts
    1,355

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conan View Post
    which will be best to recruit?

    In short: both.
    __________________

    --> - Never near Argos - <--

  6. #6
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Tin Isles
    Posts
    3,668

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus View Post
    I think the Kataphraktoi also have maces, so their secondary melee has the AP attribute, which is a nice bonus.
    Both carry a kopis as a secondary weapon and the hetaroi's is more powerful.

    second medio's commet they both have their uses.
    Last edited by bobbin; 01-29-2009 at 21:25.


  7. #7
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    From EDU

    type hellenistic cavalry successor hetairoi
    dictionary hellenistic_cavalry_successor_hetairoi ; Hetairoi
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Light_1
    soldier hellenistic_cavalry_hetairoi_molossianagema_ponitclatebodyguard, 25, 0, 1
    mount hetairoi companion horse
    mount_effect elephant -1, chariot +2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
    formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 1
    stat_pri 5, 41, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 180 ,0.38
    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 11, 22, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.11
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 18, 12, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, metal
    stat_heat 5
    stat_ground 0, 0, -5, -3
    stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 4613, 1153, 100, 160, 4613
    ownership macedon, romans_julii, numidia

    type hellenistic cavalry hellenikoi kataphraktoi
    dictionary hellenistic_cavalry_hellenikoi_kataphraktoi ; Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Female_1
    soldier hellenistic_cavalry_hellenikoikataphraktoi, 25, 0, 1
    mount hellenistic kataphraktoi horse
    mount_effect elephant -1, chariot +2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
    formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 1
    stat_pri 5, 44, no, 0, 0, melee, siege, piercing, spear, 200 ,0.4
    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 10, 25, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.11
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 22, 8, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, metal
    stat_heat 5
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 4021, 1005, 90, 140, 4021
    ownership romans_julii, romans_brutii, slave

    The kataphraktoi are cheaper, and have more armour, though their defense is the same. The Hetairoi have a stronger secondary weapon, the kataphraktoi have a bit more charge. The hetairoi also have much better morale.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  8. #8
    amrtaka Member machinor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Austria 'n Italy
    Posts
    464

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    And the Kataphraktoi have female voices...
    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheGreek View Post
    "Dahae always ride single file to hid their numbers, these tracks are side by side. And these arrow wounds, too accurate for Dahae, only Pahlavi Zradha Shivatir are so precise..."
    <-- My "From Basileion to Arche - A Makedonian AAR" Memorial Balloon.

  9. #9
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    They're both great for different tasks. However, Thracian Prodromoi is still my favorite Hellenic Cavalry.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  10. #10
    Βασιλευς και Αυτοκρατωρ Αρχης Member Centurio Nixalsverdrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Γερμανια Ελευθερα
    Posts
    2,321

    Default AW: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Hetairoi.

  11. #11
    Member Member Tudhaliya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The New World
    Posts
    43

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    For my Arche Seleukia campaign, I modded in an extra unit: Hysteroi Hetairoi Kataphraktoi. Its like, the best of both worlds! Just slapped a hetairoi on a kataphrakt mount, kept the high morale and defense, made the charge and armor the same as the kataphraktoi and voila. Now, I felt guilty afterwards, like maybe I was cheating, so I made their cost and upkeep 1.5 times the normal Hetairoi, and only with 20 men instead of 25. But they are my favorite unit now, though suprisingly fragile if used incorrectly. But if I'm careful, they can break units without losing a single man (which helps because I can only build them in Seleukia and Antioch and Baktra :/).

  12. #12
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Heraklion, Crete, Greece
    Posts
    2,610

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tudhaliya View Post
    For my Arche Seleukia campaign, I modded in an extra unit: Hysteroi Hetairoi Kataphraktoi. Its like, the best of both worlds! Just slapped a hetairoi on a kataphrakt mount, kept the high morale and defense, made the charge and armor the same as the kataphraktoi and voila. Now, I felt guilty afterwards, like maybe I was cheating, so I made their cost and upkeep 1.5 times the normal Hetairoi, and only with 20 men instead of 25. But they are my favorite unit now, though suprisingly fragile if used incorrectly. But if I'm careful, they can break units without losing a single man (which helps because I can only build them in Seleukia and Antioch and Baktra :/).
    Wow man

    Maion
    ~Maion

  13. #13
    Marzbân-î Jundîshâpûr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,170

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    The problem is that they should not really be comparable. We have discussed the differences between the two units internally and agree that while the Hetairoi are depicted on the heavier rendition, the two units have different doctrines. Companion Cavalry are swift but still powerful enough to charge; cataphracts charge knee-to-knee in serried and columned formations, and in order to maintain discipline must ride a great distance first in ambling speed. RTW limitations have however not allowed us to emphasize the differences, strengths and weaknesses in an adequate manner.

    What we certainly intend for is that unit types will have their uses, and our intention is that both Hetairoi and Kataphraktoi should be used. Neither is intended to be inherently better; however from a RTW standing, for the pure factor of superior stats, without taking into account slightly lower values of morale, the cataphracts have the upper hand. This does of course not say a lot; besides cataphracts and extra-heavy steppen and Eastern cavalry, the Hetairoi rank right up there as mounted slaughterhouses. The Seleucids have the added luxury, but for Egypt and Macedonia... And Epirus, if one counts the Molossian Guards, can not traditionally acquire cataphracts.


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Âriôbarzanes of the Sûrên-Pahlavân

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    5,489
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    But which unit have larger AoR??

  15. #15
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Lightbulb Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun View Post
    But which unit have larger AoR??
    According to the recruitment viewer Hellenic cataphracts can be recruited in 12 provinces (Lydia, Phyrgia, Syria, Syria Koile, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Charax Spaspinou, Media, Elymais, Arya, Bactria and Dayuan), while Companions are available in only four (Syria, Mesopotamia, Macedonia and Delta Neilou), although the latter two provinces don't give access to cataphracts. Technically, you can recruit both in Babylonia as well, and Hetairoi can also be recruited in Thessaly, but these provinces don't allow the government type required to build a MIC of sufficiently high level.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  16. #16
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    I honestly think that 30 is too close of a charge distance for heavy horsemen; for heavily armoured cavalry (two handed lance) I raised it to 60 (exceptions for "fast moving" units, which can get speed going more quickly. I put the single-spear heavy horsemen charge distance at 45, and the light spear horsemen stuck with 30 (Numidian cav, etc)
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  17. #17

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Technically, you can recruit both in Babylonia as well, and Hetairoi can also be recruited in Thessaly, but these provinces don't allow the government type required to build a MIC of sufficiently high level.
    I'm quite sure Babylonia is Homeland, although it starts the game with a Type 4 gov.
    Read about glory and decline of the Seleucid Empire... (EB 1.1 AAR)

    from Satalexton from I of the Storm from Vasiliyi

  18. #18
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    9,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Lightbulb Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos View Post
    I'm quite sure Babylonia is Homeland, although it starts the game with a Type 4 gov.
    I didn't check it in game, only on the recruitment viewer, so you may be right. The RV is based on EB1.1 anyway.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Which is better - Hellenic Cataphracts or Hetairoi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos View Post
    I'm quite sure Babylonia is Homeland, although it starts the game with a Type 4 gov.
    it is DEFINENTLY. I always change it to type 1, make Babylon my capitol & spend all my spare money building stuff there, keeping taxes at low to make it grow faster. In my current game, I'm extremely fortunate, as Babylon actually IS the city that gives the most money as capitol - the best suited one geographically, that is. But even when I would get better money from having fx Susa or even Persepolis as capitol, I still have Babylon, come hell or high water. I always wanted to be Nebuchadnezzar II, this is the best I can do who cares which faraway provinces rebel anyway, my realm always stays bigger than the Babylonian empires were anyway
    Moreover, I advise that Syracusans must be added to EB (insp. by Cato the Elder )

    Is looking forward to the 2090's, when EB 20.0 will be released - spanning the entire Eurasian continent and having no Eleutheroi - with a faction for every independent state instead. Look out for the Gedrosians, the Cretans and the kingdom of Kallatis!

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO