Police abuses

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-14-2009, 20:06

Originally Posted by Lord Winter

In all fairness though, don't the cops deserve the benfit of the doubt in some cases?

Um, no, because of that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing we pride ourselves on. Police Officers carry a huge authority and responsibility, a very tough job. But the mere fact that one has a badge means ones word is the gospel, 100% truth, and when it turns out an officer has blatantly lied to protect himself or to punish an innocent then that officer has perverted justice, the law and the constitution and should not only be fired, but prosecuted as well.

**Lord Winter** · 03-14-2009, 20:11

No ones denying that there are bad cops, and that they should be fired. I understand CR's arguement about the stigma of whistleblowing, but I still think you can take many isolated examples and blow them out of proportion. For example the story that first started this thread, could the officer have handled it better, yes. That does not make him an evil saddistic beign though.

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-14-2009, 20:31

I disagree.

While I'm not justifying this either, at least I can understand when a cop slaps around someone they just had to chase through a pitbull-infested trailer park or in a 100mph car chase through 2 counties or pulled drunk out of a car with 2 babies inside.

But this guy was acting as a jailer. In a jail. Whether he is a power freak, was having a really bad day, or was hung over from the night before -- that doesn't matter. Humans are humans, and if you allow them to physically abuse people then that will naturally become an outlet of their frustrations. Unless that man in the first video had just finished some highly intense situation that the female was a part of I cannot see how anyone could not view this as simple abuse of power.

On the same note, had she done that shoe-kick thing in Iraq she might get 3 years

**Husar** · 03-14-2009, 22:56

Originally Posted by Lord Winter

That does not make him an evil saddistic beign though.

Yes it does, he's beating a restrained teenage girl!

**Mooks** · 03-15-2009, 01:21

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I disagree.

While I'm not justifying this either, at least I can understand when a cop slaps around someone they just had to chase through a pitbull-infested trailer park or in a 100mph car chase through 2 counties or pulled drunk out of a car with 2 babies inside.

This reminds me of some advice of a guy I once knew, not really a friend but I knew him well. He told me in a serios tone "If you run away from the police, do not get caught. Because that cop will beat the living **** out of you". He is in prison now, quite a lot of contact with the police; probaly too much of it.

**LittleGrizzly** · 03-15-2009, 17:54

In all fairness though, don't the cops deserve the benfit of the doubt in some cases?

No, the citizen deserves the benefit of the doubt until a police officer can prove otherwise!

**Crazed Rabbit** · 03-20-2009, 18:51

Don't be an immigrant storeowner in Phildelphia, lest you run awful of the organized crime gangs there:

Drug raids gone bad
Shopkeepers say plainclothes cops barged in, looted stores & stole cash

By WENDY RUDERMAN & BARBARA LAKER
Philadelphia Daily News

rudermw@phillynews.com 215-854-2860

ON A SWELTERING July afternoon in 2007, Officer Jeffrey Cujdik and his narcotics squad members raided an Olney tobacco shop.

Then, with guns drawn, they did something bizarre: They smashed two surveillance cameras with a metal rod, said store owners David and Eunice Nam.

The five plainclothes officers yanked camera wires from the ceiling. They forced the slight, frail Korean couple to the vinyl floor and cuffed them with plastic wrist ties.

"I so scared," said Eunice Nam, 56. "We were on floor. Handcuffs on me. I so, so scared, I wet my pants."

The officers rifled through drawers, dumped cigarette cartons on the floor and took cash from the registers. Then they hauled the Nams to jail.

The Nams were arrested for selling tiny ziplock bags that police consider drug paraphernalia, but which the couple described as tobacco pouches.

When they later unlocked their store, the Nams allege, they discovered that a case of lighter fluid and handfuls of Zippo lighters were missing. The police said they seized $2,573 in the raid. The Nams say they actually had between $3,800 and $4,000 in the store.

The Nams' story is strikingly similar to those told by other mom-and-pop store owners, from Dominicans in Hunting Park to Jordanians in South Philadelphia.

The Daily News interviewed seven store owners and an attorney representing another. Independently, they told similar stories: Cujdik and fellow officers destroyed or cut the wires to surveillance cameras. Some store owners said they watched as officers took food and slurped energy drinks. Other store owners said cigarette cartons, batteries, cell phones and candy bars were missing after raids.

This isn't the first time Cujdik has made the news:

OFFICER JEFFREY Cujdik was the first cop to burst through the front door, gun drawn.

Lady Gonzalez froze. Terror gripped her five young children as Cujdik and eight other narcotics cops stormed the Kensington home.

" 'Where are the guns?! Where are the drugs!' " Cujdik shouted during the December 2007 raid, Gonzalez said. "I didn't know what they were talking about."

Then things got worse. Gonzalez said that one of the cops - not Cujdik - pulled up her shirt and bra and fondled her breasts.

The raid was prompted by a drug buy at the house three days earlier, according to a search warrant.

A police informant bought a packet of cocaine from Gonzalez's husband, Albert Nunez, on their front porch while Officer Robert McDonnell watched, according to the warrant.

But that informant, Ventura Martinez, now says that the search warrant was based on a lie: He never bought drugs from Nunez.

Anyone want to bet on the punishment? It's 10-1 odds they get no punishment.

CR

**KukriKhan** · 03-21-2009, 15:40

It's been a whole heckova lotta fun reading the continuing saga of police malfeasance and criminal activity.

As to punishments handed out to law enforcers, I'd like to point out that prevailing (US) law puts extra sanctions and provisions on officers under any kind of inquiry or interrogation.

They have the same Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination as we other citizens do. Additionally, they fall under laws known as "Garrity" and "Lybarger" provisions, as well as O.North v US. Simply put: if the person's job demands that they answer questions or be terminated from employment for failing to follow an order (to answer/testify), then any information gleaned during such questioning CANNOT be used in any other proceeding, like a criminal trial.

So, for example, Colonel North, being an active-duty Marine, was compelled to testify to Congress in the Iran-Contra hearings, but that testimony could not be used against him in any criminal proceeding.

Many Internal Affairs investigators use a form similar to this:

CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION STATEMENT
Garrity v. New Jersey, 385 US 493 (1976)
Spevack v Klein, 385 US 551 (1956),

On ____/_____/____ at ______hrs, at _________________I, ________________________
(Location) (Officers Name)
was ordered to submit this report (give this statement) by _____________________________.
(Name and rank)

I submit this report (give this statement) at his order as a condition of my employment. In view of possible job forfeiture, I have no alternative but to abide by this order.

It is my belief and understanding that the department requires this report (statement) solely and exclusively for internal purposes and will not release it to any other agency. It is my further belief that this report (statement) will not and can not be used against me in any subsequent proceedings; I authorize release of this report to my attorney or designated representative.

I retain my right to amend or change this statement upon reflection to correct any unintended mistake without subjecting myself to a charge of untruthfulness.

For any and all other purposes, I hereby reserve my CONSTITUTIONAL right to remain silent under the FIFTH and FOURTEENTH AMMENDMENTS to the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and any other rights PRESCRIBED by law. Further, I rely specifically upon the protection afforded me under the doctrines set forth in Garrity v. New Jersey, 385 US 493 (1976), and Spevack v Klein, 385 US 551 (1956), should this report (statement) be used for any other purpose of any kind whatsoever.

___________________________________________
(Officers Signature)

to question officers.

So, if we decide we want more unencumbered accountability for police/military wrong-doing, we're gonna have to rewrite law, and re-think the role and rights of the guys we pick to protect us.

**Papewaio** · 03-24-2009, 00:10

So go to confession and the sin is resolved. Nice.

And as for the military. Combine the you can't get charged because you were ordered to confess or you lose your job. With if you resign you can't get charged with a war crime.

**Crazed Rabbit** · 03-26-2009, 20:58

NYPD cops beat a man restrained on the ground with a metal baton.

Cops from Peoria, Illinois, torture a man who gave himself up after a car chase. It was so blatant and violent that some cops were actually charged with crimes.

So go to confession and the sin is resolved. Nice.

Isn't it though? They shouldn't have such protection.

CR

**Crazed Rabbit** · 03-27-2009, 22:09

Of course what happens when all this criminal action is covered up and police officers get away with this is that people no longer respect the police.

And these sort of demonstrations happen:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/306703.html

In Oakland a criminal killed three cops and injured another before being killed. And because of the actions of the police department, there are people supporting what he did, in a way.

CR

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-30-2009, 13:49

Guy gets ticket for not having a front license plate, sees cop off duty later with no front license plate and cop denies being a cop, sees cops at police station where several of the vehicles don't have fron license plates:

http://www.break.com/index/police-double-standards.html

You know, a posting by a fellow taverner in another thread who thinks its a giant media conspiracy against cops has rekindled my gusto to dog up some of the older stories that were posted in the thread that I believe was started when the off-duty air force guy was shot.

So far, I'm not having much luck as the examples I am trying to get from Oklahoma City are not showing up in the archives of the states only real online news source, The Daily Oklahoman, because it appears they don't archive online that far back. Anyway, looks like we are running out of recent stuff (give it a few days, right?) so I'll keep looking.

In the meantime, heres the one that started it all the first time:
Deputy pulls over car after short chase and crash, the drunk illegal immigrant driver flees, the passenger -- an iraqi war vet -- is on the ground trying to talk his way out of having a gun pointed at him. Note the cops dash cam would not have recorded this, and the cops initial report was complete BS but taken as the word of God (even though the wounded vet and eyewitnesses denied what the cop said was true) and was recanted and prosecuted only when the video shot by a bystander was aired.

cop: "get up, get up" BANG BANG (victim screams) shut the **** up

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0568157&q=ktla

**KukriKhan** · 03-30-2009, 14:46

So backroom consensus is: Police = teh bad.

This pdf survey of US police departments as part of city/county budgets works out to about $200 per resident, per year for police services.

Should we do away with police, since they are so bad? Take back that money? Hire rent-a-cops instead?

**LittleGrizzly** · 03-30-2009, 14:53

Should we do away with police, since they are so bad? Take back that money? Hire rent-a-cops instead?

I don't think all police should be done away with... quite happily remove those street crawlers whose only job appears to be to annoy ordinary civilians over minor quibbles.

Im happy to pay for the cops that catch murderers, paedophiles, bank robbers or similar big time thieves....

Of course this has to be combined with things like ending the wasteful war on drugs, could get rid of a decent portion of the police force right there...

Some of the money wasted on this could be spent on reforming those already down the wrong path or ensuring they never take thier first steps onto the wrong path...

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-30-2009, 15:25

Heres a story of the trial for the Chino cop:
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_6145556

And while I don't have an immediate link, I have found copy/pasted articles in other forums with identical stories saying that the deputy was acquitted of all charges. So a "stress" defense worked, although why a police officer would be telling a prone man to get up in the first place -- which they don't do unless you are restrained or the scene is contained -- is beyond me. Still seems like the only reason he told him to get up was so he could shoot him. I mean, who ya gonna believe, a bunch of immigrants who probably won't even talk to cops, or good ole boy Webb?

Here's the New Years shooting in the BART station of the unarmed man restrained and face down. Apparently he was "struggling" which people tend to do with two knees in their back and one on their neck, but you decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNmc...layer_embedded

This is likely the catalyst for the anti-police demonstration that CR posted above.

Dash cam footage of a football player being pulled over for stopping at a redlight with his flashers on, then going on when waved through by the only car around, so he could get to the hospital to see his dying mother-in-law whose cancer just crashed. I would almost say this cop is one of the good ones, because a lot of them would have tasered/peppered the woman and aunt for fleeing the scene and going into the hospital, but I won't go that far. Watch the whole video, the end with the nurses and the other cop is hilarious

http://www.khou.com/video/index.html?nvid=345703

This actually happens all the time around here, but it's local news and gets lost in the archives. I generally believe if you are rushing to the hospital for whatever reason you should call 911 and tell the cops and ask not to be messed with or to be escorted, but local protocol actually says the cops are not supposed to escort you and are supposed to have EMS show up and transport you so you can feed the municipal tax machine some more. In the last year, we've had one man detained and arrested while his son siezured in the car of the hospital parking lot, and another pulled over 6 blocks from the hospital and forced to wait on an ambulance for his passenger, and thats just in this suburb of OKC, and we have arguably the most professional police force in the metro, although our city council did just pass an anti-littering ordinance that makes the accused prove they didn't do it rather than place the burden of proof on the police.

Trooper (with 8 complaints in his pocket already) tickets man for driving in break down lane while wife is in labor, even after other troopers permitted it, and doubts her labor claims and wants to see her belly. Public outrage. State magistrate drops ticket. Troopers reinstate ticket. Public outrage. Troopers drop ticket. LOL In the cops defense, I do know the pregnant wife excuse is used often amongst people in a hurry, which is where the escort them or get an ambulance rule comes into play. Again, I think escorting is the more viable option.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/bre...police_dr.html

DOC officer stabs girlfriend, flees, crashes into prison van, killing another DOC officer:

http://www.policelink.com/news/artic...eeing-stabbing

Drunk off duty cops get into wreck with cop in uniform who is driving personal vehicle. one drunk cop pulls gun, uniform cop pulls gun too, drunk cops arrested. As of now, only open container charges are filed. Anyone want to bet he wont get any sort of felonious pointing a weapon charge? Anyone want to bet what would have tranaspired had he not gotten into an accident with another cop, but with you or me?

http://www.policelink.com/news/artic...ollowing-crash

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-30-2009, 15:37

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

So backroom consensus is: Police = teh bad.

This pdf survey of US police departments as part of city/county budgets works out to about $200 per resident, per year for police services.

Should we do away with police, since they are so bad? Take back that money? Hire rent-a-cops instead?

Nah, I don't think the police are bad, but they are certainly open to scrutiny like everyone else, and should be held accountable like everyone else, and that is done with information, education and transparency, not the ole boy system and coverups, not by blowing off criticism as a media/lefty conspiracy against authority.

If you ignore something, it only gets worse. In fact, Policelink.com recently ran a story on that showed cameras were more likely to protect officers careers and bodies than the likelihood that they would ruin the officer for misconduct etc. Scrutiny and standards are about protecting both sides, and no matter how many decent people I know and love who work in law enforcement I will never, ever use that as a reason to withhold criticism or disgust in situations involving cops acting inappropriately.

Far too often, people hide behind their choice of being a public servant -- whatever the hell that means anymore, as I just heard the Kennedys referred to as a family of servants -- as a means to be treated differently. It shouldn't work that way, people see right through it, although in most cases they are unable to stop it. So it builds and builds. Then you get knee jerkers having pro-cop killer rallies in Oakland and voters calling for the heads of Congress for misconduct only to replace them with clones of a different party.

**Husar** · 03-30-2009, 17:39

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

You know, a posting by a fellow taverner in another thread who thinks its a giant media conspiracy against cops has rekindled my gusto to dog up some of the older stories that were posted in the thread that I believe was started when the off-duty air force guy was shot.

Well, you know, I'm not excusing the cop, but calling a guy a hero just because he can put screws onto a plane is media bias to me. And if every American does it, it's public bias or whatever.

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-30-2009, 17:56

Originally Posted by Husar

Well, you know, I'm not excusing the cop, but calling a guy a hero just because he can put screws onto a plane is media bias to me. And if every American does it, it's public bias or whatever.

He was an military police officer on leave from Iraq, he was not a mechanic as far as I know. I don't know what he did or where he went, but yeah the "hero" moniker is tossed around all too often and most soldiers will deny the label, even the ones who were in harms way.

As an MP, he should have known better to let himself be put into a situation like that, which begs the question: whats safer, punching the driver going 100 mph and trying to commandeer the car, or laying on the ground unarmed with a cop standing behind you? I guess we know the answer now.

**Crazed Rabbit** · 03-30-2009, 20:38

Some more recent stories:
In Michigan, a reporter is charged with enough crimes to put her away for 20 years because she took pictures of a crime scene;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

In New York State, police kill two dogs, just for the heck of it, on a drug raid that produced no drugs and no arrests.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

In Chicago, a man set up and jailed for six months before being released without charge is suing:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

It's not just brutality, but a pervasive violation of rights and justice.

CR

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-31-2009, 08:31

I gotta tell ya man, no-knock warrants and warrants based soley on confidential sources are the bane of the war on drugs. It gets civilians and cops killed, and it violates peoples rights to know their accuser. To hell with protecting informants identities, as the vast majority of informants are criminals themselves and only informing to get preferential treatment, and I would be willing to bet a lot of the infromation is based on vendettas or just completely made up because someone needs some evidence to back up their gut feeling.

This crap with the dogs happens all the time. This crap with warrants being served on secret information, your city spending a few grand gearing up a dozen police in war gear and busting into your home, only to find a small amount of drugs -- or better yet, nothing at all -- and then all the red tape you gotta go through to get your house repairs paid for by the cops....its disgusting. If the police in my town find no drugs but do find paraphanelia, they will scrape the insides of the instruments until they can get a gram of resin, at which point they now have a possession charge. Yay. Talk about fruits of their labor, the streets are safer now.

**Major Robert Dump** · 03-31-2009, 22:17

Here's a real beauty.

Unarmed woman kneeling with child killed by SWAT member because, he says, he thought people were shooting at him from inside the bedroom. So who was shooting? Other cops, shooting the dogs:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008..._on_knees.html

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/...s_young_mother

And, he's exonerated of all wrongdoing:
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008...dict_in_o.html

not so much as a misdemeanor negligent assault conviction.

This sort of reminds me of the guy in NYC, 10 years ago, shot 41 times. Plainclothes cops, who witnesses said did not identify themselves, chased the man to his home. As he reached for his wallet, one cop opened fire. Another cop, who was such a fat pig he couldn't keep his balance, fell backwards, which prompted the other cops to think he had been shot. Hail of bullets ensues. All officers acquitted. The Street Crime unit was disbanded in 2001 because of "budget issues" but we all really know why it was disbanded: because it had a systematic pattern of questionable shootings and issues of abuse, many of which involved officers not identifying themselves before they escalated the situation, and some of which involved misconduct using their plainclothes as a coverup. Good riddance Gestapo.

I mean, dude was shot in the bottom of the foot even.
http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beat...h/Default.aspx

Hey, speaking of waving a gun around and not identifying yourself (according to witnesses, at least) but more importantly, shooting an unarmed, fleeing man for what amounted to a misdemeanor:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/ma...nypd-m24.shtml

**Papewaio** · 03-31-2009, 22:33

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

So backroom consensus is: Police = teh bad.

This pdf survey of US police departments as part of city/county budgets works out to about $200 per resident, per year for police services.

Should we do away with police, since they are so bad? Take back that money? Hire rent-a-cops instead?

Go the free market way and have healthy competition, with transparency and accountability and bonuses. Not saying that their should be private police forces, but maybe a decentralisation for some and some sort of competitive vibe (best county gets a performance based pay bonus) etc. Mind you moment you go down KPI incentives the system gets worked. So need to make a system that brings out the best in people not awards a dodgy version of brotherhood.

Heck I would love to see the top ten police get million dollar bonuses as long as all the corrupt ones were handled.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 04-01-2009, 11:45

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Go the free market way and have healthy competition, with transparency and accountability and bonuses.

Meh. Been there, done that. Hire-a-cops, private armies - that's got a name, feudalism.

As for police in general, I've been on the receiving end of both the best and the worst of the police. Some have been very kind, going above and beyond the call of duty for me. I've also stared at the wrong end of the barrel of guns wielded by trigger-happy little fascists in uniform. And I do am pretty much a law-abiding citizen. Thank God I was white or I might not have been around anymore to post here.

**Major Robert Dump** · 04-01-2009, 15:13

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Go the free market way and have healthy competition, with transparency and accountability and bonuses. Not saying that their should be private police forces, but maybe a decentralisation for some and some sort of competitive vibe (best county gets a performance based pay bonus) etc. Mind you moment you go down KPI incentives the system gets worked. So need to make a system that brings out the best in people not awards a dodgy version of brotherhood.

Heck I would love to see the top ten police get million dollar bonuses as long as all the corrupt ones were handled.

Honestly I don't know how a "top cop" system would work without it being based on quotas and inherently causing cops to trump up charges and try to get even more arrests for things which don't need to end in arrests.

Many cities and counties have a traffic citation quota system than is enacted either constantly or when the local budget needs more money. Most of the cops I know hate the quotas, and it enrages the public. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as it keeps the roads a little safer, but when the city does enact a quota for budget reasons the police department warns the local papers, who in turn warn the people, and towards the end of the month when the quota deadline hits people darn well better mind themselves on the road. So one could argue that that does, or does not work.

Convictions in general, however, from the perspective of drug task forces seeking budgets or district attorneys seeking re-election, is something that is paramount in touting for justifying ones own existence. Theres no shortage of examples of American DAs and sheriffs going to ridiculous extremes to prove their worth come election time, whether it be the Duke Lacrosse team, Phelps smoking pot, busting poker games etc. They need convictions to prove their worth.

What's even more scary is the manner by which the Oklahoma Drug Tasks Forces report their records to the state legislature to pander for funds. First, until 2 years ago, they never distinguished between felony arrests/convictions and misdemeanor arrests/convictions until our US Senator Tom Coburn called them on it. Turns out the Forces were netting far more misdemeanor and insignificant arrests than felonies.

Second, the reporting still does not distinguish between number or people arrested/convicted vs the number of individual charges. I'll give you an example:

Man has marijuana in his house. For whatever reason, he gets raided. Police find marijuana. One would think possession charge, right? In addition to possession, he can also be charged with: 1-a felony if he has a legal firearm in the closet, possession of firearm while in commission of a crime; 2-a misdemeanor of possession of marijuana without a tax stamp, although that one is a catch-22 and you can't legally apply for a tax stamp for illegal marijuana; 3-a felony of possession of marijuana while within 1000 feet of a school, church or park, a charge you will get no matter where you are in town because it has been zoned to include crosswalks, bus stops, church auxillary building that aren't even labeled, and public land thats not really a park but people use for jogging, ball, etc; 4-a misdemeanor of possession of marijuana with intent to distribute, if you have more than an ounce (despite being like everything else, the more you buy the cheaper it is) or if you have sandwich bags in your house anywhere, can be bumped up to a felony if within 1000 feet of a school, church or park, see number 4; 5-a misdemeanor of possession with a child present, if there is a child present anywhere on the property, to include the children of other tenants in the apartment/duplex/condo complex. And my personal favorite, 6, a misdemeanor maintaining a dwelling where drugs are kept or sold, which in basic english means you own a house and have drugs, and is nothing more than a pre-requisite charge to justify the cops to confiscate everything you own so they can pad their budget (5-10% of Cleveland County Sheriffs budget comes from seized personal property sales) on the grounds that your entire estate was purchased with drug money. Also, if you have more than 200 dollars in cash on one individual in the house and got the distribution charge, you can be charged with 7 a misdemeanor of possession of drug proceeds.

So we have 1 guy, in a condo he owns, in possession, committing one crime really, but he is charged with a possible 8, redundantly stacking 7 on top of the possession charge. Drug task force reports to legislature this as 8 charges brought, 8 convictions gained, but does not mention that they all came from the same unlucky individual. Oh, and his life is ruined, as is the life of his family, he is now a felon and a convict, will go to prison and be raped, will come out of prison and be unable to find work and will become one of those people like the ones at the Oakland rally. Now that's progress.

That is where top cop competitions get us. They don't want to win the drug war, because then they won't have jobs and there will be no one to fill the prisons with.

Now, if we had a competition where the cop who shot the least unarmed people got a prize, I would go all in.

**KukriKhan** · 04-01-2009, 17:00

Just as an aside, I offered a personal anecdote:

Once upon a time, in a previous life, I was a Military Policeman. One of my assignments was to the now-deactivated Presidio of San Francisco, smack dab in the city of San Francisco, abutting the Golden Gate Bridge, containing part of the Port of SF, a National Cemetery, and part of a Cal State highway.

We typically had five 2-man patrols on duty. We'd often get "hot-pusuit" assistance requests from SFPD. Some speeding motorist, or wanted criminal would be chased by: SFPD, MP vehicles, CHP (Highway Patrol/State Police) officers, Border Patrol guys, US Customs Police, Park Police jeeps, and DEA enforcers.

It was not unusual to see a single civilian car pulled over, surrounded by 7-8 police vehicles, all painted differently, with lights flashing, and the various cops, in different uniforms, trying to untangle whose bust it was, and who had jurisdiction.

We (MPs) usually lost those arguments, unless the 'perp' was an active-duty Army guy, stationed at Presidio, driving a vehicle registered on-post.

Very Keystone-Coppish looking, now that I look back. :)

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 04-01-2009, 19:24

Was it better when we had beat cops and an officer was personally responsible for things on his beat being quiet?

In short, do we want police enforcing laws or establishing order? The former is far more impartial, butnecessarily imperfect because we would need a catastrophic percentage of our workforce in police uniforms to enforce all of the laws we have on our books in our heavily legalistic Western nations. If we ask them to impose order, however, we must accept that the methodology used will involved force and that the police involved will never/cannot be completely accountable for that force as would be a private citizen. By the way, historically, police have had much more success enforcing order than they have laws.

**Papewaio** · 04-01-2009, 23:46

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Meh. Been there, done that. Hire-a-cops, private armies - that's got a name, feudalism.

As for police in general, I've been on the receiving end of both the best and the worst of the police. Some have been very kind, going above and beyond the call of duty for me. I've also stared at the wrong end of the barrel of guns wielded by trigger-happy little fascists in uniform. And I do am pretty much a law-abiding citizen. Thank God I was white or I might not have been around anymore to post here.

Not privately owned. Civic cops who can get paid far more then now. What is good for private industry and large government should be applied to police. That includes the accountability and transparency, but it also should include paying them more as professionals if they are performing well.

**Banquo's Ghost** · 04-02-2009, 07:58

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Not privately owned. Civic cops who can get paid far more then now. What is good for private industry and large government should be applied to police. That includes the accountability and transparency, but it also should include paying them more as professionals if they are performing well.

I disagree. Such a course will, as MRD noted, enshrine the target system and the drive for personal greed. Since it is usually politicians that set the targets, you will get short term, populist targets that policemen simply implement mindlessly for money, rather than the public good.

What's needed is a return to the concept of public service and the recognition by the public of the status that service should have. Service for the greater good of society is what being a policeman used to be all about, and they would be recognised for that service, not by sordid bonus payments, but by a grateful neighbourhood.

When everything is about money and individual aggrandisement, one will always end up with self-serving cliques. Therein lies the tragedy of our modern world.

**Husar** · 04-02-2009, 11:38

Well said Banquo, I completely agree.

**Papewaio** · 04-03-2009, 07:51

That is fair and well when the idea of service given had reciprocal benefits such as pension, food, housing, medical care, respect etc

Now in the modern capitalist societies were all users pay even those those in service (civic, police, firemen, nursing, army etc) have to pay out of their pocket for it. Over time a lot of those expected reciprocating services are dropped for the user pays system (pay your own meals, accommodation, training, etc as per private enterprise). Lets face it a plaque and a medal does not a lifestyle make. And there is nothing honourable about not being able to provide for ones own family.

Also as we now live in nation states and not tribal neighbourhoods it is a bit late to hope that happy neighbours will look after you for service to the nation. As the nations are set up for capitalists, I don't think that it is fair that doing the right thing should get penalised on societies score card of money, while those whose service is to themselves in business get a better deal.

Please also not that it has to rest on a system that is transparent and accountable. And that I have already stated the problem with KPIs is that the results will be made to cater for them and as such we have to have a system that caters for human fallibility (obviously the mechanism for accountability has to be thorough).

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