The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, the 5th-6th century BCE with atleast sections of the books of the Torah dating from before. You're not going to ever really be able to get a concrete date through since the Jewish priests burned old copies.

The Gospel Books usually in any point of view is acknowledged to be 1st century material except maybe John with numerous copies being produced in the early 2nd century to attest to 1st century authorship via circulation. Now, how many decades after Jesus the Gospels are written and which order? No one really knows though the textual critics would say otherwise.

So what exact time frame is allows? Near East iron-age to Vegetius?

[oudysseos]

Yes, the 5th-6th century BCE with atleast sections of the books of the Torah dating from before. You're not going to ever really be able to get a concrete date through since the Jewish priests burned old copies.

The Gospel Books usually in any point of view is acknowledged to be 1st century material except maybe John with numerous copies being produced in the early 2nd century to attest to 1st century authorship via circulation. Now, how many decades after Jesus the Gospels are written and which order? No one really knows though the textual critics would say otherwise.

So what exact time frame is allows? Near East iron-age to Vegetius?

There are a couple of quotes from TaNaKh sources, but they are mostly non-religious in character. However, a quote from Rabbi Hillel is in 'cos he was an important historical figure in the period. There are a couple of Buddhist quotes from Asoka as well, for the same reason. These do not imply that the EB team is proselytizing a particular religion, just acknowledging some of the many different cultures and societies that EB embraces. 'Christian' sources as such are too late, really. There's an outside chance that there might be something usable in St. Paul.

As far as time frame goes, anything from Homer up to Tacitus and Plutarch is pretty good, with particular interest in non-Graeco-Roman sources. Vegetius is really too late, and most of his material from vanilla RTW is gone- especially where original/earlier versions of the same aphorism could be found.

The point of the quotes is to add some flavour: they don't have to be just about war (although most are)- there are some quotes in there that are ethnography. They can be about any of the peoples and regions covered by the map- even those that aren't factions (so you'll see a quote in there about Massalia - but that doesn't mean it's one of the new factions).

[Urg]

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

Which Bible quotes are you referring to? As far as I am aware, the main set of biblical quotes in the current set of quotes compiled by Oudy are the ones from books 1 & 2 Maccabees which I extracted.

I think you will find that the historical setting for those books falls smack bang in the middle of the EB timeframe, namely the middle of the second century BC, and deals with the Jewish revolt against the Seleucids.

The descriptions of the battles against the Seleucid phalangites and elephants are, in my opinion, perfect for EB.

There are plenty of other Jewish sources that are relevant to the EB time frame which I don't think anyone has been through yet. It would be great if someone could do so.

[Shapur II]

This is just a suggestion

but why not have a quote from the Rig Vedas too?,since it had existed for a while by the time of EB's timeframe and India is on the eastern edge of the map

an example:

1. I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
The hotar, lavishest of wealth.
2. Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
He shall bring. hitherward the Gods.
3. Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4. Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
Verily goeth to the Gods.
5. May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
The God, come hither with the Gods.
6. Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper,
That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7. To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer
Bringing thee reverence, we come
8. Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One,
Increasing in thine own abode.
9. Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:
Agni, be with us for our weal.

[bobbin]

Found this rather lovely quote,

"Païs ôn kosmios ginou
Hèbôn enkratès
Mesos dikaios
Presbutès euboulos
Teleutôn alupos."

"As children, learn good manners.
As young men, learn to control the passions.
In middle age, be just.
In old age, give good advice.
Then die, without regret."

It is a Delphic maxim that comes from an inscription found in the Baktrian city of Ai-Khanoum on the Heroon of Kineas the founder of the city, and dates from around 300-250BC. It is written by a certain Klearchos who some believe to be Klearchos of Stoloi a student of Aristotle.

Here is a photo of the inscription (its the piece of text on the far right).
I'm also not sure where the inscription is actually held, I know it was at the Musée Guimet in paris for a while but I think it's kept in the Afghan national museum.

A link containing the original text as well as some other info.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u...age&q=&f=false

[sc369]

παντες οι λαβοντες μαχαιραν εν μαχαιρη απολουνται

All they that take the sword shall perish by the sword
Matthew 26:52 (c. 30CE)

[Cadwalader]

I found two good quotes from Homer and Euripides which I think would be appropriate:

ζυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)

δíκα δíκαν èκàλεσε καí φóνoς φóνoν
Justice has called for justice and blood for blood. (suppl. 614)

I had to copy and paste Greek letters to write this, so for convenience's sake I used Latin letters whenever I needed to add diacritics. Both were found in How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics by Calvert Watkins. The English translations are the ones provided in this book.

The first quote put into context (Hector arguing against Polydamas' advice to leave the battlefield following the death of Patroclus):

Then with an angry glance from beneath his brows spake to him Hector of the flashing helm: [285] Polydamas, this that thou sayest is no longer to my pleasure, seeing thou biddest us go back and be pent within the city. In good sooth have ye not yet had your fill of being pent within the walls? Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; [290] but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth. But now, when the son of crooked-counselling Cronos hath vouchsafed me to win glory at the ships, and to pen the Achaeans, beside the sea, [295] no longer, thou fool, do thou show forth counsels such as these among the folk. For not a man of the Trojans will hearken to thee; I will not suffer it. Nay, come; even as I shall bid, let us all obey: for this present take ye your supper throughout the host by companies, and take heed to keep watch, and be wakeful every man. [300] And of the Trojans whoso is distressed beyond measure for his goods, let him gather them together and give them to the folk for them to feast thereon in common;1 better were it that they have profit thereof than the Achaeans. But in the morning, at the coming of Dawn, arrayed in our armour, let us arouse sharp battle at the hollow ships. But if in deed and in truth goodly Achilles is arisen by the ships, the worse shall it be for him, if he so will it. I verily will not flee from him out of dolorous war, but face to face will I stand against him, whether he shall win great victory, or haply I. Alike to all is the god of war, and lo, he slayeth him that would slay. So Hector addressed their gathering, and thereat the Trojans shouted aloud, fools that they were! for from them Pallas Athene took away their wits. To Hector they all gave praise in his ill advising, but Polydamas no man praised, albeit he devised counsel that was good. So then they took supper throughout the host; but the Achaeans [315] the whole night through made moan in lamentation for Patroclus. And among them the son of Peleus began the vehement lamentation, laying his man-slaying hands upon the breast of his comrade and uttering many a groan, even as a bearded lion whose whelps some hunter of stags hath snatched away [320] from out the thick wood; and the lion coming back thereafter grieveth sore, and through many a glen he rangeth on the track of the footsteps of the man, if so be he may anywhere find him; for anger exceeding grim layeth hold of him. Even so with heavy groaning spake Achilles among the Myrmidons:

[Macilrille]

-En Varus eodemque iterum fato vinctae legiones!

"Varus and the Legions, enchained once more in the old doom"

Arminus, before assaulting Caecinas' disorderly legions in broken terrain at the head of a picked band.

Annals of Tacitus, Book I, LXV.

It falls just outside EB's timeframe by two years, but is so adequate for describing the German way of fighting Romans at the time and in EB.

[Urg]

In honour of the recent Boii preview, I have found some quotes concerning the Boii from Livy:

“The Boii having cut off his head, carried it and the spoils they stole off his body, in triumph into the most sacred temple they had.”

“Spolia corporis caputque praecisum ducis Boii ouantes templo quod sanctissimum est apud eos intulere.”

The Boii victory over the Roman consul-elect L. Postumius Albinus at the Battle of the Litana Forest, 215 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXIII:24

_________________


“The Boians, a nation remarkably impatient of delay, and quickly disgusted at a state of inaction, separated, and withdrew to their several forts and villages.”

“Boi, ut est gens minime ad morae taedium ferendum patiens, in castella sua uicosque passim dilapsi sunt.”

The Boii army disbands after their victory over the Roman consul M. Claudius Marcellus, 196 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXIII:36

__________________


“This tempest of cavalry first confused and disordered, and at length entirely broke the line of the Gauls”

“Haec procella equestris primo confudit et turbauit, deinde dissipauit aciem Gallorum”

The Romans attacking the Boii at the Battle of Mutina, 193 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXV:5

__________________


“As soon as they turned their backs, and fled precipitately on every side, the legionary cavalry was sent in pursuit of them.”

“Postquam terga dabant et in fugam passim effundebantur, tum ad persequendos eos legionarii equites immissi.”

The Romans pursue the Boii after the Battle of Mutina, 193 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXV:5

[Andy1984]

"A new enemy, therefore, was being sought for; a colony which had been a loyal neighbour was being covered with infamy. It was against the unoffending people of Antium that war was declared; it was against the Roman plebs that war was really being waged."
A Roman tribune disapproving of what he sees as an upcoming war of Roman aggression (Livius, Ab urbe condita, III:10)

The entire citation is as follows:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As though to show how events revolve in the same cycle year by year, the Hernici reported that the Volscians and Aequi, in spite of their exhaustion, were equipping fresh armies. Antium was the centre of the movement; the colonists of Antium were holding public meetings in Ecetra, the capital, and the main strength of the war. On this information being laid before the senate, orders were given for a levy. The consuls were instructed to divide the operations between them; the Volscians were to be the province of the one, the Aequi of the other. The tribunes, even in face of the consuls, filled the Forum with their shouts declaring that the story of a Volscian war was a prearranged comedy, the Hernici had been prepared beforehand for the part they were to play; the liberties of the Roman were not being repressed by straightforward opposition, but were being cunningly fooled away. It was impossible to persuade them that the Volscians and Aequi, after being almost exterminated, could themselves commence hostilities; a new enemy, therefore, was being sought for; a colony which had been a loyal neighbour was being covered with infamy. It was against the unoffending people of Antium that war was declared; it was against the Roman plebs that war was really being waged. After loading them with arms they would drive them in hot haste out of the City, and wreak their vengeance on the tribunes by sentencing their fellow-citizens to banishment. By this means - they might be quite certain - the Law would be defeated; unless, while the question was still undecided, and they were still at home, still unenrolled, they took steps to prevent their being ousted from their occupation of the City, and forced under the yoke of servitude. If they showed courage, help would not be wanting, the tribunes were unanimous. There was no cause for alarm, no danger from abroad. The gods had taken care, the previous year, that their liberties should be safely protected.

kind regards,

Andy

Edit: I'll add the latin quotes once I've read the entire book. At this moment I'm just collecting more english quotes.

[jirisys]

How about this, i think the EB historians will be happy with it, but don't think it's quite good for the war themed game


This above all makes history useful and desirable: it unfolds before our eyes a glorious record of exemplary actions.
-Livy; Histories, Praefatio, sec. 10

Here's one that may ambient a little more to the game (i'm sorry if it has alreay been posted, i did not notice)

Man, supposing you and I, escaping this battle, would be able to live on forever, ageless, immortal, so neither would I myself go on fighting in the foremost, nor would I urge you into the fighting where men win glory. But now, seeing that the spirits of death stand close about us in their thousands, no man can turn aside or escape them, let us go on and win glory for ourselves, or yield it to others.
-Homer; Iliad, XII.322-328 (Sarpedon to Glaukos)

All the best

~Jirisys

[oudysseos]

Jirisys, that's a good one from Livy. Can you post the Latin?

[jirisys]

mmm... i'l look for it, cause my translation is horrid, i don't have the book however, maybe it's online, i'll keep you posted

[Trax]

The Seikilos epitaph that contains the oldest complete piece of music.
Dated between 200 BC - 100 AD

Inscription:
ΕΙΚΩΝΗ ΛΙΘΟΣ
ΕΙΜΙ· ΤΙΘΗΣΙ ΜΕ
ΣΕΙΚΙΛΟΣ ΕΝΘΑ
ΜΝΗΜΗΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΤΟΥ
ΣΗΜΑ ΠΟΛΥ ΧΡΟΝΙΟΝ

I am an image in stone.
Seikilos put me here,
where I am forever,
the symbol of eternal remembrance.

The Song:
Hoson zēs, phainou
mēden holōs sy lypou
pros oligon esti to zēn
to telos ho chronos apaitei

While you live, shine
Don't suffer anything at all;
Life exists only a short while
And time demands its toll.

[jirisys]

Sorry couldn't find it (the latin original) why don't you just keep it in english?

[Urg]

I like Jirisys' quote too. The latin is :

Hoc illud est praecipue in cognitione rerum salubre ac frugiferum, omnis te exempli documenta in inlustri posita monumento intueri

[jirisys]

I like Jirisys' quote too. The latin is :

Hoc illud est praecipue in cognitione rerum salubre ac frugiferum, omnis te exempli documenta in inlustri posita monumento intueri

Thanks

Hoc illud est praecipue in cognitione rerum salubre ac frugiferum, omnis te exempli documenta in inlustri posita monumento intueri
This above all makes history useful and desirable: it unfolds before our eyes a glorious record of exemplary actions
- Livy; Ab Urbe Condita, Praefatio, sec. 10

Lol (originally posted by Titvs Livivs (That's Livy's full name for thosw who don't know))

[oudysseos]

Sorry couldn't find it (the lati original) why don't you just keep it in english?

That's EB baby!

[jirisys]

That's EB baby!

What-the-hell did you mean by that??????

[anubis88]

What-the-hell did you mean by that??????

Edit: Why haven't people told me if i'm part of the team or not! The Help required thread is 2 day old now!

Based on your impatience i would say... NO... but what do i know

[oudysseos]

Oh My God! Two whole days? Incredible! What kind of operation is this?

BTW, what I meant is that using the original language is the EB way- something that I thought was actually pretty clear.

We are not going to rush into letting people on the team: we have been burned too often by people who join and do nothing. So either wait while we think about it or just forget it. The third option would be to do some work on your own and show us that you have drive and discipline.

[jirisys]

alright then, sorry, as you are aware, I am, really, really impacient , sorry if i made you angry, but, my impacience does not stop me from doing a good work, i know i can be very annoying and I apologize, to the whole EB forums, i'm sorry.

I will wait, until you make a verdict, if i don't get in there, well, tough luck.

My mother uses the computer more than I do, so i only get 3 or 4 hours to do textures and play EB, and do other things like check the org , I don't know what to do for you in that time (texture-wise), but, if someone could tell me, something they want to see (texture-wise) on a soldier, or a icon/info picture, please post it on the help required or make your own thread, and i'll try to do the best I can

Anyway back to topic, is the translation for the livy quote ok Oudysseus? and will you put it in EB2 (don't worry i won't get impacient)

Anyway hope you can forgive my childish behavior

~Jirisys (on his first apology on the Org and it's members)

[samba_liten]

All the below by Archilochus, who admittedly lived long before the EB timeframe. He was a mercenary.

"I don't like a tall general nor one in braids
or proud with his curls or part shaved under the chin,
but for me he should be short and around his knees
bowlegged to behold, standing firm on his feet, full of heart."
see link, p.29, for this fragment in Greek
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Archilochus.pdf

"Not many bowstrings will be stretched nor slingshot
flying thick, when Ares makes his killing field
On the plain. Then it will be the grievous work of the sword.
They are the Lords of this kind of battle ---
The spear-famed Lords of Euboea."
same link p.33.

"Some Thracian is delighted with the shield, which beside a bush
I left unwillingly, an excellent and perfect armament.
Myself I saved! Why should that shield be important to me?
The hell with it! I'll get another again, just as good."

Ibid p.38

[Macilrille]

All the below by Archilochus, who admittedly lived long before the EB timeframe. He was a mercenary.

"I don't like a tall general nor one in braids
or proud with his curls or part shaved under the chin,
but for me he should be short and around his knees
bowlegged to behold, standing firm on his feet, full of heart."
see link, p.29, for this fragment in Greek
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Archilochus.pdf

"Not many bowstrings will be stretched nor slingshot
flying thick, when Ares makes his killing field
On the plain. Then it will be the grievous work of the sword.
They are the Lords of this kind of battle ---
The spear-famed Lords of Euboea."
same link p.33.

"Some Thracian is delighted with the shield, which beside a bush
I left unwillingly, an excellent and perfect armament.
Myself I saved! Why should that shield be important to me?
The hell with it! I'll get another again, just as good."

Ibid p.38

Obviously he was no German,

The most glaring disgrace that can befall them, is to have quitted their shield; nor to one branded with such ignominy is it lawful to join in their sacrifices, or to enter into their assemblies; and many who have escaped in the day of battle, have hanged themselves to put an end to this their infamy.

Tacitus Germania on germans.

More Tacitus' on Germans;
On the wedding gift of arms;

That the woman may not suppose herself free from the considerations of fortitude and fighting, or exempt from the casualties of war, the very first solemnities of her wedding serve to warn her, that she comes to her husband as a partner in his hazards and fatigues, that she is to suffer alike with him, to adventure alike, during peace or during war.

There be many more, but I am down with a cold-fuzzed head, so more later.

[Trax]

With the intoduction of the princesses in EBII this one might be appropriate.

Three different translations.

"There are two days when a woman is a pleasure: the day one marries her and the day one buries her."

"Woman is twice a pleasure to man,
The wedding night and her funeral."

"Two happy days a woman brings a man: the first, when he marries her; the second, when he bears her to the grave."

Hipponax "On women"

[oudysseos]

With the intoduction of the princesses in EBII

No princesses in EBII unless someone has a stroke of genius on how to break the hard-code.

[Trax]

Some texts of non Greek or Latin origin.
Perhaps not very good but just for the sake of diversity.

Concerning the conquest of Babylon by Ptolemy III

"That day, the people were slaughtered with iron weapons"
Ptolemy III Chronicle (BCHP 11)
http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/chronicl...i_01.html#TEXT

Concerning the suppression of the revolt of native Egyptians in 186 BC.

"When it was announced to his Majesty through the mouth of a friend of his Majesty, who loves the king, by the chief of the cavalry Aristonikos son of Aristonikos, concerning Komanos, who is one of the first friends of his Majesty: "A battle took place in the South in the area of Thebes with the impious man, the fiend of the gods Hr–wnf and the troops of the Ethiopians, who had united with him, slaying them, seizing as captive this wicked men alive"

and

"On the 3rd of Mesore it was announced to his Majesty: Hr–wnf has been captured alive in the battle against him in year 19, on 24 Epeiph. His son was killed, the commander of the army of impious men, together with the leaders of the Ethiopians who fought on his side. He was brought to the place where the king was. He was punished by death for the crimes, which he had committed, and so were the other criminals, those who had rebelled in the sedition, which they had made."
Second decree of Philae
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~te...re/revolt.html

[echolot]

Iterum dicam, uicistis; nullum contemptu m[ortis incitamentum] ad uincendum homini ab dis immortalibus acrius datum est.

(I say again you are victors, no keener weapon has been put into men's hands by the immortal gods than a contempt for death.)

Hannibal to his men before battle Battle of Ticinus. Livy, Book XXI, 46.9

[Cadwalader]

There should be some useful stuff in the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly the War Scroll. They were written down either within EB's time frame or almost immediately after.

Here is a translation, although I am not sure if it can be trusted.

"And the men of the army shall be from forty to fifty years old. The commissioners of the camps shall be from fifty to sixty years old. The officers shall also be from forty to fifty years old."

[Trax]

Brave men are a city's strongest tower of defence - Alcaeus

That was in the vanilla RTW


Men are the warlike tower of the city
άνδρες γαρ πολιός πύργος άρήιος

It seems there are quite a few rather different versions of the Greek text on the net, no idea which one is more correct or authentic.

Here's one
http://www.archive.org/stream/songso...ge/68/mode/2up
Here's another (transcribed)
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Ta...eos%22&f=false

A bit of context.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53948695/9...fth-century-BC Search for Alcaeus, can't link to the search result inside the book.