Watchmen Discussion Thread

[Strike For The South]

I know we have a thread for movies but I don't want to clutter it with my man love for this movie.

Easily one of my favorites of all time and definitely the best movie I've seen in the last 5 years. When the Directors cut comes out It'll probably make my top 3.

The way everything was packaged I thought was so well done.

Some highlights. Spoilers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Rorschach had easily the best performance and line line in the movie "I'm not locked up in here with all of you, all of you are locked up here with me!" The moral absolutism was a bit off-putting in the beginning but towards the end I began to like it as it seemed he was the only one who didn't compromise himself.

- I liked how the superheros wern't so super. They are given human qualities which makes the movie seem realistic instead of a fairy tale.

-There was allot of gore but it didn't seem overdone. Even when the ol boy had his arms chain sawed off.

-Despite the Comedians many crimes I couldn't bring myself to hate him.

- I was completely surprised by the ending an even more surprised these heros let it happen (save Rorschach)

-I like the way the flashbacks tied everything together

-There was full frontal male nudity and it was blue and LARGE

-That woman was a harlot but you got to see her nude more often so thats a plus.

10/10

[GeneralHankerchief]

Excellent film. My take in spoilers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- First of all, amazing opening credits. I wasn't much of a Dylan fan before this but I gave his stuff a second look after watching those.

- Rorschach was easily my favorite character, the way he just refused to compromise, "not even in the face of Armageddon". The dude that ended up with Strike's "harlot" seemed just too creepy to be part of the crew, if you asked me.

- Dug the Antarctica stuff at the end, but the movie was still about 20 minutes too long. I think they could have cut out some of the one guy pining for the girl and thrown in either more action or more USA/Russia-related drama.

- Finally... Nixon as a five-term president... HAHAHAHAHAHA He's a quite popular guy in the alternate universe, with both Futurama and Watchmen making him Prez.

[seireikhaan]

Weird. I literally just walked back into my dorm room after having watched it at theaters.

My take:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You guys like Rorschack, and I can buy it. He easily had the single greatest line in movie history "I aint locked up in here with you guys, you guys are locked in here with me!" Unbelievable cojones. However, I ultimately thought Dr. Manhattan was the best character. I can (sorta) empathize with him, in two regards- the emptiness of humanity and the seeming irrelevance of it. And the inability to please a woman despite having a three-way between the two of us while being in possession of the most God-like body ever.

[Kagemusha]

I liked it a lot.Great movie!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The main moral dilemmas concerning good and bad were great. In the end the other "super heroes" understood that sometimes horrible deeds could cause good things eventually. Only Rorschach could not understand that and died because he could not see the "grey". Now whether Rorschach or the others were right, thats up for the invidual viewer to decide.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

Will watch it someday.

IGN's Video Review: 3.5/5

[seireikhaan]

For some reason, people seem to love or hate this movie. Not quite sure why.

[Reverend Joe]

I hear it has to do with actually reading the comic. Everyone I know hates it, though, and not just those who read the comic.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Interesting, I know a few people that read the comic that adore the movie. I imagine it just comes down to individual taste.

[Ramses II CP]

It did as well with the source material as a movie could IMHO. Only the owl ship sex scene was completely out of place, almost to the point of being farcical, but I understand why it was shot that way. It is a comic book fanboy movie after all.

More in spoilers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I hated the Comedian with a vigor. His vision of the nature of humanity is too close to the truth for my comfort and his way of dealing with it too tempting. The powerful do take what they want from the rest of us and often they face no consequences for it as long as they don't cross their own; just ask any random AIG exec. He's only called to account when he commits the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as long as he is amoral he is permitted any act his own blood stained hands can carry out.

2. Like everyone, I love Rorshach. To live without compromise is also, in it's own way, incredibly tempting and utterly destructive. Rorshach has the purity of bleach, better to be dead and clean than to be alive or to suffer any life to go on tainted.

3. Dr. M can't be addressed without getting into religion, so I'll just say he's very entertaining. The amorality of science lends itself equally to charity and charnal houses. Nothing ever ends.

4. Ozymandias gives us the clearest look at the kind of leadership which has always functioned best for mankind: dictatorship. Strong enough, fast enough, and brilliant enough to see what must be done combined with arrogant enough to believe he has the right to do it no matter the cost. I thought his line about 'feeling every death,' was one of the best, most revealing in the movie. Down the centuries how many red handed conquerors have excused their actions so? How many genocidal maniacs, how many 'hero' figures from history?

5. The rest of the characters all have their own roles to play in deconstructing the very idea of heroism. This is a film that tears down the concept of the 'good guy' and rebuilds it into something quite recognizable, but also quite vile. To change the course of the world requires walking across the broken backs of millions.

The wife and the couple we went with hated it. They didn't want to look for any larger themes and hadn't read the book so the movie was difficult to follow and definitely too long. Hard to argue with that last point, but I still enjoyed it quite a lot.

[desert]

Never read the comic. Maybe I will someday.

Apparently you need to read the comic before seeing the movie, or else you WILL hate it, from what I've read about the movie so far.

[Lemur]

As I said in the movie review thread, I thought it was too short, too jumpy and paced all wrong. I had much the same feeling when I saw the first Lord of the Rings films. However, when the Director's Cuts of LotR were released, I loved them. Sticking back in some breathing room made those films feel shorter, even though they were substantially longer. I have a feeling that the pace and feel of this film was butchered to bring it in under three hours.

When there's a longer cut on DVD, with any luck I will love it. Yes, pretty darn faithful to the book, which I appreciate, although Jon's Johnson got HUGE between the page and the screen.

I liked Snyder's Dawn of the Dead remake, and thought it was a near-perfect genre film. 300 was very silly, but that's okay.

I could have done without "All Along the Watchtower," possibly the most overused piece of music in the world. I also wouldn't have minded one of a million other '80s songs besides "Hallelujah," another song that has been used in TV shows and films so often that it's bordering on public domain.

Use of "Hallelujah" in TV and Film

[GeneralHankerchief]

I could have done without "All Along the Watchtower," possibly the most overused piece of music in the world.

I can't wait for the day when the soundtrack to a movie is nothing but the various versions of "All Along the Watchtower". Make no mistake about it, it's coming.

[Peasant Phill]

Apparently you need to read the comic before seeing the movie, or else you WILL hate it, from what I've read about the movie so far.

I was surprised nobody really mentioned the comic in here.

I won't be seeing this movie in the theatre as I DID read the comic fairly recently and found it rather underwhelming. I can understand it being a classic for it's radical different take on the superhero genre but I found the comic just overly dramatic and outdated.

I, however, have hope for the movie as hollywood also did a good job updating 'V for Vendetta' (although I felt that comic less outdated). As long as the movie doesn't have that unrealistic/stupid ending, it will be fine.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I loved the comic and the movie so I don't know what that makes me. I can't decide which portrayal I liked better; the Comedian or Rorschach.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As for the ending, the movie tweaks it so there is no giant squid. I feel that it's a slight improvement, but it certainly doesn't detract from the ending, which is otherwise essentially the same.

[Major Robert Dump]

Is this the one about Wolverine? Yes!

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

One of the best movies I've seen in quite a while. Haven't read the original comic version (for the record).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ozymandias is my favourite character. Personally I found the Comedian quite repulsive if only because you can see many baser aspects of humanity in his portrayal. Rorschach was entertaining also.

My reasons for liking Ozymandias are that he genuinely thinks he is doing what is required for humanity's survival. The sheer scope of his vision, and the idea that anyone can be so arrogant as to reshape the world in a way so drastic and succeed.

I also liked his affection for Egyptian architecture, and ancient figures such as Ramese II and Alexander the Great.

The film also did a very good job of portraying the deeper issues, which despite the alternate 'Cold War' setting, are for the most part very relevant today.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The Comedian and Rorschach are my favorites. The first represents everything humanity is and the second represents what humanity should be (in my opinion). Well, maybe not to the extreme that Rorschach portrayed. Ozymandias was the one I disliked the most, mostly due to the fact that I didn't not believe that his plan's end justified the means. Especially since it hinged on the fact that the world now based itself upon a lie and any lie eventually gets exposed (evident in that scene with Rorschach's journal at the very end). So you know that it will be exposed and when it does the world will be back to what it was before, possibly even worse.

EDIT: Oh yeah, awesome movie.

[Puzz3D]

Ozymandias was the one I disliked the most, mostly due to the fact that I didn't not believe that his plan's end justified the means.

But Ozymandias is the smartest human. If he can't figure out the right thing to do who can?

[Hooahguy]

i saw this movie today. its ok. not fantastic.

[Xiahou]

I really enjoyed the movie. Of course Rorshach was awesome- his super power is "crazy", how can't you like that? He also gets points for sticking to his principles, no matter what the cost.

Dr. Manhattan was also awesome, in spite of his big blue penis being in pretty much every shot with him. By the end of the film, I had become convinced that it was a running gag on the part of the director to see how often they could get it on film.

I also thought the sex scene in the flying owl was quite a bit longer than it needed to be, but it wasn't that big a deal. IMO, sex scenes only need to be long enough for the audience to get the idea, so to speak. If I wanted to watch a porno, I'd rent one.

Otherwise, it was really a great movie that I'll probably want to own once it's on DVD or Bluray.

[Ramses II CP]

But Ozymandias is the smartest human. If he can't figure out the right thing to do who can?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Actually I rather think that's the point; no one can figure it out because there is no 'right' thing to do that will save the world. "Nothing ever ends," and Rorshach's journal at the end, etc.

Or did you intend that as sarcasm?

I didn't mind Ozy's arrogant folly so much, at least he was trying. More than most people can say.

[Puzz3D]

It seems to me that the smartest human would be the best person to decide on the course of action.

[Lemur]

It seems to me that the smartest human would be the best person to decide on the course of action.

Ask anybody who has worked in a high-stakes environment (war, trading pits, tiger handlers, etc.) and they'll tell you that it's better to be lucky than smart. Not that you get to choose.

[Puzz3D]

Ask anybody who has worked in a high-stakes environment (war, trading pits, tiger handlers, etc.) and they'll tell you that it's better to be lucky than smart. Not that you get to choose.

Some outcomes are totally determined by luck, but in many cases using smarts improves the odds of a good outcome. I think Watchmen goes beyond this, and questions what constitutes a good outcome. Is the existence of the human race a good thing, a bad thing or inconsequential?

[Ramses II CP]

It seems to me that the smartest human would be the best person to decide on the course of action.

Why? Intelligence does not denote wisdom or even breadth of knowledge, it only imples raw processing power. I mean, Ozy decided to change the world after eating a ball of hash and having a vision in the desert. Even if he's the smartest person on the planet that does not sound like a man I'd stake millions of lives on.

Consider the 'most intelligent' person in the world today, Marilyn vos Savant. She writes an advice column which is of no particular social utility and, if the small selection of answers I've read is any indication, demonstrates a very limited understanding of people's day to day lives. She's smart so if you hand her a problem with very clearly defined limits she will quickly give you a viable solution, but for open ended questions or matters subject to interpretation and personal experience her 'answers' are no more valuable than the base of her experience, little of which is in politics or world affairs. Frankly I think if you asked her she'd say the same thing.

Intelligence is a good tool to have, but it's not the only tool that matters. I read Watchmen as making this point rather neatly.

[Jolt]

One of the script writers was the guy who voices Solid Snake in the Metal Gear series, David Hayter. Let's hope he carries his good success all the way to Metal Gear: The Movie.

[Puzz3D]

Why? Intelligence does not denote wisdom or even breadth of knowledge, it only imples raw processing power.

Ozy has wisdom and breath of knowledge, and in addition he has human feeling. Only a few of the characters in the story are powerful enough to change the course of events at the necessary level. Of those, they all seem less desireable to me than Ozy for various reasons.

[Craterus]

Ozy has wisdom and breath of knowledge, and in addition he has human feeling. Only a few of the characters in the story are powerful enough to change the course of events at the necessary level. Of those, they all seem less desireable to me than Ozy for various reasons.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Haven't seen it. Yet. But read the comic. Couldn't help but think that if this guy was so smart, he could have figured out a way to save the planet without killing a lot of people.

There's always another option.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Ozy has wisdom and breath of knowledge, and in addition he has human feeling. Only a few of the characters in the story are powerful enough to change the course of events at the necessary level. Of those, they all seem less desireable to me than Ozy for various reasons.

The movie also undersold Ozy's "rockstar" or "JFK" appeal from the novel. In the movie he's a little more 2dimensional as "the smartest man in the world." In the novel I think he functions a little more as questioning how the people we choose to lead us actually decide things. It feels a little more like he's perceived to be the smartest man in the world, but that doesn't mean has all the answers.

[Puzz3D]

The movie also undersold Ozy's "rockstar" or "JFK" appeal from the novel. In the movie he's a little more 2dimensional as "the smartest man in the world." In the novel I think he functions a little more as questioning how the people we choose to lead us actually decide things. It feels a little more like he's perceived to be the smartest man in the world, but that doesn't mean has all the answers.

I thought the pretty boy image came across quite well in the movie. I'm still only 1/3 of the way into the novel so far, and Ozy's character is not very well developed at this point. Interesting point about Ozy being perceived to be the smartest man while he may not actually be so. This would elevate his social, political, and/or business status higher than it should be. People do this quite often with public figures, and the point is made how Ozy is a high profile public figure. I wrote off some of his characteristics as portrayed in the movie as red herrings, but perhaps they are actual flaws. I haven't been seeing him to be as flawed as he may actually be. Laurie is another character who I hope is more fully developed in the novel.

I mean, Ozy decided to change the world after eating a ball of hash and having a vision in the desert.

I guess that ties in with this idea:

In the novel I think he functions a little more as questioning how the people we choose to lead us actually decide things.

Even smart people may rely on or be influenced by irrational factors when making decisions. I hope that higher intelligence in a person results in less irrationality in their decision making. Irrationality might seem to be a flaw, but it does allow humans to make decisions when confronted with paradoxical situations. I have this perception that each individual decides how much weight to give irrationality in their decision making, and this of course fluctuates over time. I like to keep irrationality relatively low in my decision making, but I don't always succeed in doing so. If you are faced with a situation where intelligence can't decide better than fifty-fifty then irrationality will decide unless you postpone making the decision perhaps to get more information later, but the postponement could also be a symptom of paralysis. I think this is why it's important to understand the world and how things work as best you can. Knowledge is valuable, and the more you have of it the better.

Lecture over.