Features the EB team wants to see in R2TW

[Xurr]

One thing R2TW would need is a real and robust scripting language. One in which you can create functions, use true if,then,else statements etc. As it is the EB script has to be huge and can cause all kinds of slowdown issues.

Second would be event handling, with custom event handlers that stay resident in memory and don't require crazy endless do while loops to keep them running.

I am actually amazed at what the EB team accomplished using the very limited tool set that RTW has.

[Satyros]

A good campaign A.I. ( Which for once will include SERIOUS DIPLOMACY for its factions ) and a tough battle A.I. would be enough for me . Is it that difficult ? Can anyone answer responsibly this question guys ? How tough would it be to develop a serious ( as opposed to "silly") A.I. behavior ( + diplomacy ) for a RTW/MTW/ETW game ?

EB 1 would be the best game in the multiverse if those two conditions were not hardcoded and could be at least moded by the team .

Satyros

[Moros]

AI isn't the easiest thing to program, it's usually expensive and time consuming to get it right. Goodlooking models by a pro however can be made at a fast, stable and expectable rate. Hence the evolution in the game industry, I guess.

[Satyros]

So I take it that for complex games like the new generation ( after MTW1 ) of the TW series we will have to wait many more years to see an actual competent ( not demonicaly brilliant mind you , just not absolutely stupid inadequate and incapable of the most basic of things - say to accept a ceasefire when down to one province , not charging a horse general head on at a wall of pikes as an opening move for an offensive for ****'s sake ) A.I. .

Do you believe this is a hardware issue , and by that I mean the availability of hardware of a certain quality to the average player/buyer , or they just can't be arsed to get down and make a good A.I. and instead throw ever better eye-candy ?

If only this game had actually an A.I. ....

Oh well , one can only hope , besides they did have to start from somewhere , it's just that I don't see them moving the whole A.I. thing forward at any acceptable rate . Haven't played ETW though .

And don't get me wrong , I am a great fan of the series because ( for example ) I wouldn't be able to play EB if there was not a RTW . I am not happy however with the lack of progress in the A.I. department over the course of 9 titles of the TW series . Hell , come to think of it MTW had better battle A.I. ( still crappy diplomacy ) .

/Rant mode off

Satyros

[Ludens]

Do you believe this is a hardware issue , and by that I mean the availability of hardware of a certain quality to the average player/buyer , or they just can't be arsed to get down and make a good A.I. and instead throw ever better eye-candy ?

It's partly that: creating a good A.I. is more difficult than creating good-looking graphics, and there are more skilled artists than A.I. programmers. Both of them are resource intensive, so it's hard to have both will keeping system requirements down. The poor A.I. from R:TW may well have come from the decision to have only slightly higher system requirement compared to M:TW, while massively improving the graphics.

However, it is mainly because good-looking games sell better. The mainstream player is not going to play the game for long and doesn't like steep learning curves, so he prefers graphics to a really advanced A.I. It also generally takes a week or so of playing for the exploits in the A.I. to arise, so reviewers, especially if they are not very familiar with the game and it's community, don't initially catch on. Also, graphics are by their nature very visible in the advertising; a fantastic A.I. on the other hand is at best a bullet-point.

[Satyros]

I guess you're right .

But I still remember barely being able to restrain myself in anticipation of RTW ( well , part of this was because of the graphics I admit it ) , and the disappointment as soon as I played seriously the game .

Honestly , if it wasn't for EB and an overactive imagination ( plus various submods , addons etc e.g. Force diplomacy minimod ) I would have stopped playing years ago , and even though I bought the MTW2 I must say that after a while I got extremely bored and returned to the seemingly "worse" game of RTW ( --> EB ) . I haven;t found a mod like EB for MTW2 , hopefully EB2 will come and chamge that .

So right now I am hesitant to buy ETW , and still nag to fellow forum members about the A.I. occasionaly . Pitiful of my part , thanks for putting up with this , heh .

Well , the thing is that one less ETW copy sold isn't going to scare anyone ( and we all know that I will buy the game eventually don't we ? ) but I'm somewhat bitter about the fact that the minority of " hardcore " players' opinions is brushed aside , after all it is them among all customers that would point out any flaws in the game more accurately .

Off the box I enjoyed much more MTW and Shogun than MTW2 honestly . And I know I'm not alone .

Ok , ok I'll stop now .

And just to be on topic : RTW2 please come with a better A.I.

Satyros

[Alsatia]

I guess you're right .

But I still remember barely being able to restrain myself in anticipation of RTW ( well , part of this was because of the graphics I admit it ) , and the disappointment as soon as I played seriously the game .

Honestly , if it wasn't for EB and an overactive imagination ( plus various submods , addons etc e.g. Force diplomacy minimod ) I would have stopped playing years ago , and even though I bought the MTW2 I must say that after a while I got extremely bored and returned to the seemingly "worse" game of RTW ( --> EB ) . I haven;t found a mod like EB for MTW2 , hopefully EB2 will come and chamge that .

So right now I am hesitant to buy ETW , and still nag to fellow forum members about the A.I. occasionaly . Pitiful of my part , thanks for putting up with this , heh .

Well , the thing is that one less ETW copy sold isn't going to scare anyone ( and we all know that I will buy the game eventually don't we ? ) but I'm somewhat bitter about the fact that the minority of " hardcore " players' opinions is brushed aside , after all it is them among all customers that would point out any flaws in the game more accurately .

Off the box I enjoyed much more MTW and Shogun than MTW2 honestly . And I know I'm not alone .

Ok , ok I'll stop now .

And just to be on topic : RTW2 please come with a better A.I.

Satyros

'


Agreed.

[Satyros]

Thank you for agreeing but this wasn't the purpose of my nagging , although appreciated . I seriously hope that someone will take notice of me and others like me and perhaps in future releases we would see ( at least ) more modable games ( if not awesome out of the box games ) . Because mods made by fans for fans often give to the above mentioned minority a better gaming experience ( " better " according to what is desired by the minority ) , so in a way everyone is happy ( or at least happier ) . To fortify my position in this I will point to the EB mod .

After all , the basic concept of STW and MTW was absolutely great for its time , took the whole genre leaps forward ( just compare it to other contemporary strategy games and see the abysmal difference in quality ) with the RTW and MTW2 titles giving us ( only ) the new campaign map ( other new features were more or less enhancements on previously existent features e.g. sieges ). So to me it seems that the series lost momentum , after the truly ground breaking first titles of the series which made possible the development of a hard core of dedicated fans along the years .

Perhaps this is why I complain , because I have had very high expectations .

.... and I just can't shut up about it eh ?

Sorry folks .

Satyros

P.S. : Is it that important ? Hell yeah ! "Gaming" for me means the TW series and Paradox games ( and the DoW titles for rather sentimental reasons ) over the past years . The super " kewl graphics " of the FPS genre ( for example ) don't mean anything to me , and good CRPG's are dead , long dead . So , yeah , it is that important . I love gaming .

[Alsatia]

Wow, big rant.

The AI is incredibly stupid, those romans charged sraight into the front of my phalanxes with no flanking! If the EB team with CA made R2TW, I would buy it, no hesitiation. EB is the best mod, id rather say game that I ever had. Imagine EB with no limits due to CA's Capacity... The AI would (hopefully) be much better and historically orientated.. I can just dream and drool of the finished product....

[ray243]

The best thing that would make tons of fans happy is CA allowing the fans to modify the AI code.

[Phalanx300]

A good Hoplite shieldwall, and an option to link units to eachother so you can have a continious line which isn't breaking up in several pieces to attack individual units. This way Hoplites can turn around openings and flanks etc.

[Ludens]

The best thing that would make tons of fans happy is CA allowing the fans to modify the AI code.

That isn't up to CA. SEGA makes that decision. And SEGA, nor any other publisher, is going to allow fans to tamper with code, because would essentially give their programming techniques away to the competition. Apart from the potentially detrimental impact on sales, obviously.

[Krusader]

The best thing that would make tons of fans happy is CA allowing the fans to modify the AI code.

Nah...they'll release improved AI in a DLC...

Joking. That would be a PR disaster move by CA

[LAST.MAN.STANDING]

This is probably totally implausable and/or impossible but what about the taking of prisoners after a victorius battle and the choice to pardon them or enslave them? Forgive my ignorance if this has been suggested already but i think this would make for more historically accurate gameplay, and provide scope for further development.

Wow, big rant.

The AI is incredibly stupid, those romans charged sraight into the front of my phalanxes with no flanking! If the EB team with CA made R2TW, I would buy it, no hesitiation. EB is the best mod, id rather say game that I ever had. Imagine EB with no limits due to CA's Capacity... The AI would (hopefully) be much better and historically orientated.. I can just dream and drool of the finished product....

I second these motions, and add a request for the ability to plunder the battlefield for weapons/armor and loot the baggage train. Currently there is no influx of funds as a direct result of field victories. Historically armies on campaign funded/supplied themselves largely through looting the bodies of their dead enemies and capturing baggage.

As far as the AI goes...at least for armies which historically fought using conventional tactics, I'd like to see them HOLD A FREAKING BATTLE LINE. Flanking was the classic means of victory in pitched battles for centuries, with every effort made to defend the flanks and overpower the enemy counterpart. It's hard to think of a famous battle of the Greco-Roman era that was not won/lost via a flank attack/envelopment of some sort. So I'd like to see the AI put a premium of effort into attacking/defending flanks, and of course, the way this was done historically was to vigorously maintain battle formation and deploy mobile contingents on the flanks in order to both counter enemy attacks and to threaten the enemy flank/rear. Some AI ingenuity in this area would be nice, but that's an oxymoron.

The AI could be better strategically as well...in hundreds of ways...but to name a couple, STOP marching tiny armies around the campaign map aimlessly and without leadership. AI armies should concentrate under leadership of generals and march on the enemy with some sort of cohesion. If I invade an AI nation, it should respond with all its ability to expel me rather than sending small forces every few turns. Or, it should avoid battle until it has massed enough forces and/or has me in a position that is to its advantage. Again, maybe asking too much, but hopeful.

[Alsatia]

Let us all pray and hope CA is actually listening. We ARE all their potential (or rather guaranteed) customers. And good customer service = sales = $$$ (in most cases).

Let us just pray (or hope beg, etc.)

Btw, welcome to the forum LAST.MAN.STANDING.

[Tux]

It's partly that: creating a good A.I. is more difficult than creating good-looking graphics, and there are more skilled artists than A.I. programmers. Both of them are resource intensive, so it's hard to have both will keeping system requirements down. The poor A.I. from R:TW may well have come from the decision to have only slightly higher system requirement compared to M:TW, while massively improving the graphics.

I agree with you there but really how hard is to program that cavarly units don't attack head on spear/phalanx units and especialy the general unit which in RTW the AI did this a lot. The AI in TW games(the MTW one was ok though) is a piece of crap, they improved it little by little but not enough to make it at least a little chalenging were you are outnumbered 2:1.

[John the Mad]

As a fan i would like to see them bring back the sane unit speeds and the devestating effects of exhaustion from the first game.It at least kept you honest in keeping a fresh reserve,and units were not flying all over the battlefield at top speed the entire time like a bunch of mini Usain Bolts on meth.

[Moosemanmoo]

I'd love it if the conquest of key (large/capital) cities had greater impact on the war, like other nearby cities being abandoned or coming under your rule

Or if you annihilate the enemies' army, perhaps some local regions succumb to you also?

I just thought that if Hannibal had taken Rome, would Capua/Arpi/Arretium/Ariminum/etc all keep going? Obviously it would mess up gameplay if this caused factions to be easily wiped out but it's just an idea

After reading alot about Alexander it's pretty clear he destroyed Persia by winning key battles in the field (Granicus/Issus/Guagamela), not by taking a million years besieging each an every settlement

[DaciaJC]

Heh, I like the idea of taking out the Yellow Fever with a single stroke...

[Alsatia]

This could be scripted into EBII, well... I Think.

[Skullheadhq]

They could, just like HoI 3 script their AI in lud so everybody can edit it to what they want.

[El_Nino_Abandonado]

I think that there should include an overthrowing trait, for factions such as Rome and Carthage, it would be exciting to see King Hannibal

I think they should also include a feature in which if two family members from different factions marry than the child they create will have respect from both factions, as an example the relationship between Alexander and his uncle, the king of Epirus

Also factions should be able to build colonies and trade posts

and being able to ally your faction w/ rebels

[El_Nino_Abandonado]

rebel settlements should be autonomous and be able to have it's own diplomacy

[Alsatia]

rebel settlements should be autonomous and be able to have it's own diplomacy

Empire already has that. They are the "minor" factions. They piss me off alot because you cannot expand recklessly without angering one of the greater powers.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There's absolutely zero use in asking for anything, so you're just tormenting yourselves.

[Alsatia]

I seee. CA will do nothing about it (as you have said on another topic). All they want is MONEY! MONEY! MONEY!


This is just pure suggestion and opinion. (I doubt it would change anything)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Please, let the words stand for themselves - don't put any in our mouths. I understand this is a "fun" exercise, but it's also a masochistic one.

[Skullheadhq]

Just give the EB team the source code of M2TW and let the gamers play the best game ever.

[/Bean\]

Can someone get inside CA, and feed us information from inside? They may get fired, but it would be well worth it! I'd pay for them to eat for a few weeks.

[Ludens]

Just give the EB team the source code of M2TW and let the gamers play the best game ever.

I doubt it. Modding and programming are different ball-games.