Shields?

[chairman]

Both. The Notitia is a confusing document, and it seems that the units represented in it were not always of equal status. So, you find shields that are different but from the same "regiment", and shields that are the same but from different "regiments". This seems to indicate a significant degree of merging and splitting of units in the time period that the Notitia was originally compiled. For instance, there is evidence that the elite guards of previous emperors would be posted to obscure frontier outposts by successive emperors to remove the chance of insurrection. Over time, these units would be divided up and sent to many small posts across the border limes.

Chairman

[Ibrahim]

darn! chairman got to it first, but he is correct. the mangled mess of an organization is because of the crisis of the third century and later on, when vexellations from the 30 some regular legions from the 230's would be detached from the main legion for service. often, these would become independant units, or a legion or two would be too mauled, and would be merged to form a single unit. and it only go worse through the fourth century, with units being moved back and forth, as Chairman described, so that by 400AD (ehn the notitia came about), we have a mess of an organization. and from the annotations that updated the book to c.420 (in the west), there were even more splits, mergers, and disbandenments.

there used to be limitanei shields in the origional documentation too, but by the 9th century someone got tired of doing the countless shield patterns belonging to them, an only rendered the Comitatenses and palatinae-at least that's what I gather.

you can google the shields-there is a very good website with all the shield patterns photographed from the origional manuscript.

EDIT:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...ignitatum.html

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...aPatterns.html

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~igmaier/notitia.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notitia_Dignitatum

http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/notitia.htm

[machinor]

Whoa! Find the strangely familiar shield-design:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...Galliarum.html

[Ibrahim]

Whoa! Find the strangely familiar shield-design:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...Galliarum.html

Units stationed in Gallia for the western roman empire, c.420AD.

and?

EDIT, you mean Romanenses? it looks like the lusotannan patterns, but that's just coincidence I guess

[/Bean\]

Is the Equites Cornuti Seniores the RAF insignia?

[bobbin]

I'm more interested in the Mauri Osismiaci, didn't know Taoism had reached the roman empire!

[Ludens]

Thanks for the answer, Ibrahim and Chairman.

[machinor]

I actually meant the Armigeri defensores seniores which have the Yin-Yang-symbol (the Mauri osismiaci too as bobbin mentioned).

Btw, are the Valentinianenses iuniores having a head on a pike as shield pattern? Badass!

[Ibrahim]

I actually meant the Armigeri defensores seniores which have the Yin-Yang-symbol (the Mauri osismiaci too as bobbin mentioned).

Btw, are the Valentinianenses iuniores having a head on a pike as shield pattern? Badass!

oh, I thought you meant familiar EB theme.

but yeah, a lot of designs resembled stuff you don't imagine from Roma. there is a unit called Thebai for example: its pattern looks like it was from the masked phantom, with alternating purple and yellow bandings.

[eddy_purpus]

i cant do it at TWC, i was banned for calling someone a "lunatic" because he started a thread ranting about how EB's naked units should be uncircumcised.

please don't start this here, not in the .org please.....

We told him that in the TWC forum too but he just wouldnt go..
so now its problem for the real EB2 subforum :P

[Prussian to the Iron]

you seriously think its rigt to be banned for a month because i called someone a lunatic? specially when he critisized and ranted about EB's naked units being circumcised and thus i was justified in my assertion?

[satalexton]

go check your memory, what were you banned for BEFORE that?
I'd find it possibly amusing if you get instagibbed, but thats not up to me to decide.

As for the shields, I see no reason why the Romaioi would have industrially mass-produced identical shields, they are just like every warrior-kulture barbaroi around and near the Hellenes. In fact, not even the civillized hellenes use uniformed pattern shields.

[Prussian to the Iron]

the romans were not barbaric, at least not barbaric after the polybianor marian reforms. their military might have been somewhat barbarian-influenced early on like that comic strip someone put up, but only for a while. i'm sure they were lucky to have lasted against the etruscans and other tribes in italy for long enough to become a super power. by the time the tribes around them realised they needed to act, it was far too late.

[oudysseos]

Actually, the Greeks thought that the Romans were well barbaric for a long time. Quisque est...

[Zaknafien]

the romans did practice human sacrifice, after all. and of course were extremely xenophobic.

[Prussian to the Iron]

they practiced human sacrifice? really? ive never heard of that with romans....then again, so did the egyptians, greeks, and persians.

[machinor]

And I sometimes wish it were still a practice today.

[SwissBarbar]

Well, the Italian governement sometimes nearly does in its sessions *G*

[Prussian to the Iron]

im guessing your from italy if you know or care about that.......

[/Bean\]

SwissBarbar, location : Helvetia. I don't think he's Italian. It just means he takes slight interest in foreign affairs. Unless of course he means our Italian government .

[machinor]

No no, SwissBarbar. What you can observe in the Italian parliament is the good ol' ancient tradition of settling differences... THROUGH MORTAL KOMBAT!!

[Ludens]

they practiced human sacrifice? really? ive never heard of that with romans....then again, so did the egyptians, greeks, and persians.

They sacrificed two couples after the defeat at Cannae, and IIRC again when the Cimbri invaded Italy. That is, off course, not counting bloodshed in the form of gladiator fights, as these were for the sake of entertainment, not religion.

What EB is trying to make clear is that the Romans were only civilized in some aspects, like law and government. In others, for example female emancipation, they were noticeably more barbaric than their "barbarian" neighbours. Hence EB's motto: everyone is a barbarian to someone.

you seriously think its rigt to be banned for a month because i called someone a lunatic? specially when he critisized and ranted about EB's naked units being circumcised and thus i was justified in my assertion?

I am not aware what the exact cause is of your ban on the TWC, but you would have been warned for that on the .Org as well. Rule of the thumb: "If you cannot say it nicely, don't say it all". Disagreement and discussion are good, but they have to remain polite.

[SwissBarbar]

Just so you know, I'm Swiss, live in Switzerland, but my blood is 1/2 Swiss , 1/4 Austrian and 1/4 Italian. Actually meaning that the greatest part of each is conjoining in me

I've been quite many times to Italy



@ machinor: I didn't say it's negative *G*


@ Ludens: IIRC, Gladiator-fights are of Religious origin.


The EB - Motto is absolutely right. You're all Barbarians to me... or wait, how was it?....

[machinor]

Yes... and SwissBarbar is (a) SwissBarbar to everyone.

[SwissBarbar]

So it would seem

[Ibrahim]

@ Ludens: IIRC, Gladiator-fights are of Religious origin.

true that, but the problem is that the entertainment tok on an entertainment vaule later on, so most (not all) gladiator deaths were in enterntainment's name.

[Ludens]

@ Ludens: IIRC, Gladiator-fights are of Religious origin.

Yes, they started out as deadly duels to honour famous ancestors. But as Rome grew more powerful, they became more and more crowd-pleasing events. By the time of the early empire, few Romans would argue that gladiator fights were primarly (or even at all) religious events.

[Celtic_Punk]

red could be used for the same reason teh spartans did... Red hides blood.

[Ibrahim]

red could be used for the same reason teh spartans did... Red hides blood.

no, it cannot. blood clots darker than red, a kind of dark russet or maroon color. If cut your arm or something, and let the blood drip onto a kleenex (for demonstration purposes), the blood will be a faded scarlet at first, and then overtime it will darken-it only takes a few minutes, so on the battlefield, it will show. the best color would be a darker shade of maroon or something similar.

[SwissBarbar]

and what's the purpose of hiding bood? If you wanted to cheat, you could say it was the enemy's blood, that's even better than let your arm being cut off and then pretend that nothing happened.

Actually it could turn out to have the opposite effect. "oh my god, look at all this blood" , but it's only colour The spartans put off their red cape before battle anyway