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Thread: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

  1. #31
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Well as I've said repeatedly. As a strategy game ETW (and all TW titles) ought to adhere to the maxim 'First secure the victory and then go to war'. In other words, victory should be secured via the Diplomacy System, by careful negotiation of treaties, alliances and trade deals etc., and only when a faction has the upper hand, a clear motive and certainty of victory should a faction go to war.

    As things stand we have the opposite scenario 'Go to war and then seek a victory.' and so you see the ridiculous scenario's of 'feeble/destitute' nations going to war with 'Terrifying/Spectacular' ones without any allies and sometimes already at war with half the world, and of course the equally stupid 'Poland declares war on New Spain' type scenario's where Poland has no means whatsoever of coming into contact with their enemy let alone victory.

    The failure of the diplomacy system really discredits the entire game in my opinion. It comes across as nothing more than a 'shoot-em up' pretending to be a strategy game.
    Last edited by Didz; 05-30-2009 at 11:49.
    Didz
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  2. #32
    Abou's nemesis Member Krusader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    When your neighbours declare war on you there should be some sense or logic behind it.

    *They dislike you and decide to spank you. (High negative reputation).
    *Their allies are at war with you and could move in to help them.
    *You make a bad diplomatic proposal.
    *They see an oppturinty to grab weakly defended area(s) from you.

    And they should have the armies/navies available to do so as well.
    If factions just randomly declare war, what is the point with Diplomacy system really.
    My favourite dream come true, would be if another company or companies decided to make Total War style games. CA lacks real competition.

    I never played M2TW for more than 8 hours total (not counting Broken Crescent). I absolutely hated how the AI was programmed to attack you no matter what. Kingdoms was the first TW product I did not buy (in addition to Alexander). The demo of ETW made me preorder though and I havent regretted it.

    Note: I don't play as much ETW as I used too, due to the latest patch changes. But ETW is among the best TW games I've played and they have added a lot new concepts and game mechanics and improved many areas from earlier TW games. Thought I'd mention that, so no one will call me anti-ETWer or something.
    Last edited by Krusader; 05-30-2009 at 22:02.
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  3. #33

    Post Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    I've totally given up on ETW. As it stands now it was a colossal waste of money to buy the game at all. In effect, the complainers got their way, exactly as I had feared. They wanted more aggression, and they sure got it. It's not smart, it's not reasonable, it's not historically accurate or even politically productive, but now we can all be sure that the AI will declare war on anything that's even remotely alive. Great job guys, the game is a whole lot better now!

    Of course I'm only being partly sarcastic, over on total war center, lots of people seem to be pleased with the changes; bringing up the fact (ad nauseum) that this game isn't Total Diplomacy or Total Balance of Power. So be it, that's obviously all well and good for some, but I was hoping for a more complex and refined gaming experience for ETW, instead we seem to have taken a big step back. I think now more than ever it was a mistake to choose the 18th century as a backdrop for a Total War title. The only way to make the game acceptable or interesting to many is to obliterate the historical underpinnings and simply make the whole affair a free for all. A situation that has no connection, whatsoever, with the political and diplomatic wranglings that characterized conflicts of the era like the War of the Austrian succession.

    At any rate I suspect there is little reason to anticipate improvement in this situation in the near future, so I'm just sitting things out and waiting to see where the patches go. Perhaps if the modding tools ever come out, that will make things more tolerable. It's a big disappointment for me, but least I can fall back on EU3: In Nomine, it's not an exact substitute, but it's not bad at all.
    "Religion is a thing which the king cannot command, because no man can be compelled to believe against his will..."

  4. #34
    Member Member Yun Dog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    So is this the old share border declare war diplomacy from M2TW - the same 'feature' that made M2TW the most boring and unchallenging game in the TW series?

    Thats really sad

    and you whats even sadder, we cant choose not to apply the patch
    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen View Post
    its pevergeren.

  5. #35
    Member Member Yun Dog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    1731 and I just had my 2nd 'Screw the Player' event crop up in my Spanish Campaign, so it looks like you can expect one every 20 years of gameplay during the game. Be interesting to see if the next one is in 1751.

    Anyway, this one wasn't quite as 'Dumb' as the first. This time Austria may have declared war on me for no reason whatsoever, but at least Austria and Spain aren't bossom buddies, in fact Spains 'Friend-o-Meter' rating with them is -57 as shown below.



    However, as you can see most of this -57 is down to the mysterious 'Historical Grievances' factor which as someone pointed out on the TWC forums has no historical logic to it at all. (Apparently, Prussia has 'Historical Grievances' with factions that historically Prussia never even met, let alone had a chance to 'piss-off')

    But I digress, there were two big problems resulting from Austria declaring war on me.

    a) They are Allied with Britain, which if they had joined in the war would have complicated things for me in the Carribean. Nothing I couldn't handle but nevertheless unecessary hassle.

    b) Clicking on the button to acknowledge the declaration caused an immediate crash to desktop. Thus ending my game.

    So, whilst I might have gone along with this particular 'screw the player event' it was actually quite important to avoid it if I wanted to carry on playing.

    Also despite the fact that Austria is not exactly pals with Spain, declaring war on me was a completely illogical action anyway. As you can see Austria could not possibly gain anything by it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It does have a couple of powerful fleets parked in the Adriatic, but it has no armies available to invade Naples and there is no way of getting them there other than by sea as Austria doesn't share any land borders with Spain or any of its colonies.

    In addition, like France in 1711 it too is overcommitted militarily already with seperate and an ongoing wars against the Ottoman Empire, France and Poland. It's also Weak and its resources are Meagre, whereas Spain is Terrifying and Spectacular. So once again we see a faction being forced to commit military suicide just to screw with the player.

    The good news is that just like last time reloading the game at the end of the previous turn and running the end of turn again resulted in the event not being triggerred, so I can get on with the game.

    Another finger in face of the 'geek with the god complex'
    So I went searching for 1751 because Ive got a CTD in prussian Campaign at 1751 everytime it comes to spains turn

    If this is some stupid event that they've BALLSED UP - and now my campaign crashes at 1751

    Im sorry the units only get me so far a game needs to include some gameplay

    so what now... start another campaign that may also crash at a certain year

    I played Galactic civs2 all weekend and had great fun like a book I couldnt put down

    havent felt that way about a Total war since RTW
    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen View Post
    its pevergeren.

  6. #36
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Yunson View Post
    So I went searching for 1751 because Ive got a CTD in prussian Campaign at 1751 everytime it comes to spains turn
    This a CTD during the End Turn process, when it reaches Spain?

    If so it can only really be an event triggerred CTD. I assume you've reloaded and re-run the End Turn a few times without success.

    Have you tried going back a few turns?

    Oh! also can I ask if New Spain still exists, I had CTD's when I played Spain that were caused by completion of the New Spain Mission.
    Didz
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  7. #37
    Member Member Durallan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    just referring to aussie giants it being titled total war, post much earlier on, I don't know if he is still of the same opinion, but if he is, why do they bother with a campaign map if its just going to be 100% war all the time?
    I play Custom Campaign Mod with 1.2!
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  8. #38
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Curious. The latest patch seems to have turned Austria into the Milan of ETW, AKA: A rabid monkey ODing on viagra.

    They, more than any other faction now (disregarding the old 'scripted' ones, such as Georgia and Dageistan), seem to enter 'berserker' mode. In my Russian campaign, Austria's second DoW saw them reduced to Silesia. I offered the return of the entire Austrian empire and 10,000 gold for peace and was rejected. Apparently the Austrian diplomat thought that the only thing saving me from a horse whipping was diplomatic niceties, rather than the bayonets pointed at him.

    EDIT:

    Furthermore, in two seperate campaigns, Austria has somehow managed to gain 'Hostile' relations with all of Europe and most of those outside of it.
    Seriously. Click on Austria and the ENTIRE MAP turns bright red.
    Last edited by Sheogorath; 06-29-2009 at 19:17.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  9. #39
    Member Member Durallan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    I had the same problem with russia, click on the map and its entirely red.

    Another example of stupid behaviour, okay, I'm Prussia, border spain in the americas, have trade with them and very friendly. They are allied to france who declared war on me. I asked them to help and they broke the alliance so I wasn't too happy about that. But anyway, I decide I want Gibraltar. I offer Spain a LARGE amount of money and technologies for it and they accept. I realised I didn't have an army to move in and defend it anyway I send a ship to stop the british from morocco crossing the land border to take it. Spain is very happy and we have never had any historical grievances. Spain likes me more than France (dislikes france actually even though theyre allies) +71 in the friendship panel.

    Note Gibraltar is now the only province that i border spain with in europe, I have bordered spain for a few turns in the america's aswell with no problems.

    okay so the very turn I've bought Gibraltar from the spanish legit, hit end turn, Spain Declares war and takes Gibraltar back. Spain has now lost the lucrative trade with me that was worth around 4000 gold a turn, invoked the most powerful nation in the worlds wrath, and doesn't seem interested in attacking anything else, so now they have made themselves look about as reliable as something very unreliable.

    Now you could say that I was a sucker and they were waiting for me to do that, but A: how would they have known and B: I realise they were allies with france but I get a feeling thats more a coincidence than a contributing factor to declaring war on me. I get the feeling it was just sharing a european border with them that did it.
    Last edited by Durallan; 06-30-2009 at 04:01.
    I play Custom Campaign Mod with 1.2!
    My guide on the Family Tree - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87794
    Kobal2fr's guides on training chars to be
    Governors - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86130
    Generals - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87740
    Blue's guide to char development - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87579

  10. #40

    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Seeing as 'total war' IS part of the game title, it makes sense to me that you should always be at war with at least a few nations. Now having the nations do something about it would be nice. It would be great if enemy nations were constantly trying to invade you, because that way it lives up to the game's title and having the whole campaign worried about losing and such would be a serious challenge. As it is right now, you are at war with many nations but they don't bother attacking you.

    I've had some luck so far; enemy navies seem rather active now and enjoy chasing my fleets around the atlantic when I'm at a slight disadvantage(I'm a terrible admiral)

    EDIT:
    I've seen a few posts arguing about this 'total war in the title' thing, so:

    Main Entry: total war
    Part of Speech: n
    Definition: a war in which every available weapon is used and the nation's full financial resources are devoted

    which means the game is centered around war, and nations need to go and fight with all their resources. Come on CA, you've got the first half finished!
    Last edited by peacemaker; 06-30-2009 at 06:47.

  11. #41
    Member Member Durallan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    well if its going to be always about total war and not some sort of strategy, then i guess I'm going back to civ 4 and gal civ... cause ain't no point in there being a strategy map if there's no strategy. I have to say I am getting very weary of this "well the title is total war so it must be total war!" excuse, I know what the game is called, the box sits on my shelf.

    If it is TOTAL TOTAL TOTAL WAR!

    why is there a diplomacy button?

    why can you if your lucky sometimes declare peace with another nation?

    why not just give the player a set amount of money each turn and see how he does with the whole world set against him?

    why are there quotes about peace in the loading screen?

    I don't buy that theyve done this just because its total war, and if it is and theyre gonna continue this into their next games, well I won't be gettin those. The idea I thought was that the player could make a choice as to how he carves out his empire in a period of conflict, that doesn't mean as soon as you've beaten a nation into vassalship that another one has to declare war on you instantly without being prepared or depending on its strength compared to yours, right now the game is a cakewalk and having pathetic nations declaring war on terrifyingly superior ones, without a bunch of them being allied against you makes no sense. I'm sorry but not everyone shares your wish to be constantly at war for no apparent reason in a game that defines itself as a strategy game. In civ 4, if an AI can beat you up it will, right now AI's can't really manage their economies as well as a players to even attempt it.

    EDIT: by the way it says Total war, not CONSTANT war.

    and if any CA representative is reading, please please please tell us whether this is intentional behaviour or not so it can be clarified once and for all
    Last edited by Durallan; 06-30-2009 at 15:31.
    I play Custom Campaign Mod with 1.2!
    My guide on the Family Tree - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87794
    Kobal2fr's guides on training chars to be
    Governors - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86130
    Generals - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87740
    Blue's guide to char development - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87579

  12. #42
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by peacemaker View Post
    Seeing as 'total war' IS part of the game title, it makes sense to me that you should always be at war with at least a few nations. Now having the nations do something about it would be nice. It would be great if enemy nations were constantly trying to invade you, because that way it lives up to the game's title and having the whole campaign worried about losing and such would be a serious challenge. As it is right now, you are at war with many nations but they don't bother attacking you.

    I've had some luck so far; enemy navies seem rather active now and enjoy chasing my fleets around the atlantic when I'm at a slight disadvantage(I'm a terrible admiral)

    EDIT:
    I've seen a few posts arguing about this 'total war in the title' thing, so:

    Main Entry: total war
    Part of Speech: n
    Definition: a war in which every available weapon is used and the nation's full financial resources are devoted

    which means the game is centered around war, and nations need to go and fight with all their resources. Come on CA, you've got the first half finished!

    Great, now they just need to eliminate research, get rid of the diplomacy option and stop buggering around with trade. After all, states should be devoting %100 of their resources to war, right?
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  13. #43
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Well in fact there is no need to bother with the campaign map at all just stick a city in each country of the battlefield and lets duke it out Command and Conquer style. Might as well if thats all the game is about.
    Didz
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  14. #44
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Well in fact there is no need to bother with the campaign map at all just stick a city in each country of the battlefield and lets duke it out Command and Conquer style. Might as well if thats all the game is about.
    Why even bother with that? Let's just have a program that takes the stats and number of units and crunches the numbers to determine victory.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

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