Preview: Mamla'ha biMassylim

[Ludens]

That is actually not a gladius present there, a gladius has a slight bulge in one portion of the sword. The straightsword present in the Numidian infantry is a shortsword version of the Taureg sword, a lasting influence of ancient Berber culture in North Africa today.

I see. That's doesn't invalidate my argument, though.

[Foot]

Wow, looks great. Just one thing, wouldn't they most likely have used an ancestor of one of the modern Berber languages spoken in Tunisia rather than Punic?

Care to suggest one? Punic was obviously not their native tongue, however we have no knowledge of their native tongue apart from a few inscriptions (the name of the noble unit is taken from one such inscription). Punic was the language of trade in that region, and is the most appropriate as we cannot reliably construct the language or many languages of that region.

Foot

[Tanit]

Wow, looks great. Just one thing, wouldn't they most likely have used an ancestor of one of the modern Berber languages spoken in Tunisia rather than Punic?

Yes they would have, hence the name for the Numidian nobles 'GLDGMKT'. However, the language you refer to, 'Old Libyan', is poorly understood whereas Punic is relatively well understood. To the Libyans Punic would have represented what Latin represented in the middle ages, the educated language of the nobility and scholars. Thus until such time as proper Old Libyan terms for the units can be created Punic works as an acceptable substitute.

[KingOfTheIsles]

Yes, unfortunately it seems that Berber languages are pretty much extinct in Tunisia. I'm no expert on the languages, but there are a couple of reaonably widely-spoken ones still in existence in Algeria, namely Chaouia and Kabyle. I guess it would be a lot more difficult to find a speaker of one of those languages than a hebrew speaker, and it would be impossible to say just how close the modern language would be to the ancient language too.

Yes they would have, hence the name for the Numidian nobles 'GLDGMKT'. However, the language you refer to, 'Old Libyan', is poorly understood whereas Punic is relatively well understood. To the Libyans Punic would have represented what Latin represented in the middle ages, the educated language of the nobility and scholars. Thus until such time as proper Old Libyan terms for the units can be created Punic works as an acceptable substitute.

That's a pretty sound reason. Do you have any idea of a particular language still alive today that could be considered its cloesest ancestor?

[Zarax]

If you read the description you will see that these represent the infantry that were used before the "Roman style" Numidian infantry were developed.

Does this mean there will be a later, "roman influenced" unit? (Am I asking too much?)

P.S.
@Tanit: I didn't forget your PM, will try to follow it up ASAP

[Megas Methuselah]

Zarax, I imagine Numidia will be getting a couple reforms. After all, they have bodyguards from THREE different eras.

[DaciaJC]

Marvelous work, EB team. I never cease to be amazed at your dedication.

[Tanit]

Yes the Numidians have several reforms they can go through. As for the closest related language to 'Old Libyan'? That's a tough one. Among ancient languages it is clearly related to semitic languages, though to what degree I do not know. It uses the same styles but clearly different words, such as using GLD for 'ruler' where Punic and Hebrew use different forms of Malek. Among modern languages it is certainly related to Berber, but berber is also clearly influenced by arabic due to the Muslim occupation.

I did read one article which attempted to equate Old Libyan with ancient Etruscan. It made some convincing arguments and showed significant similarities in terminology but I do not know what became of that study.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Anything that tries to link any language to Etruscan or isolates is probably done with a clearly partial intent.

[The General]

If you read the preview carefully you will see that because of the castle/city dichotomy, each faction will have two different settlement models, the castle representing the nomadic settlements, the city representing the settled models. What is true for the semetic culture is also true for the steppe culture.

Foot

As much as I like the idea of nomad settlements for steppe/nomad cultures, I'm curious how the castle/city system will be used with the more civilized cultures, that had abandoned nomadism? Or is this to be revealed in a later preview...?

Anyways, a nice update, though the Numidians weren't exactly a surprise to be chosen to be included... (Their exclusion being quite a surprise when I first downloaded EB 0.8x or whicheveritwas)

Good news that EBII's progressing.

[Hotseat_User]

apsolutely great work sirs, I'll wait with patience 'till the one day, EBII will be released.
by the way, will there be the possibillity to play EBII in hotseat mode? then I'll collapse

[Scud]

Great work with the preview!

The Numidian kings recognized this fact and would later attempt to rectify it with a rigorous training program built under the Roman design.

Blatant hinting of reforms I see!

And I'm guessing this is the faction from the Twitter post, for judging by the preview Mamla'ha biMassylim seems rather "reform heavy": "Adding the government building for a new faction. Quite a few reforms for this one! - Foot3:53 PM May 23rd from web".

Also, if Mamla'ha biMassylim are going to be heavy on the reform side, further kudos for branching more in-depth reforms outside of the Romani.

[Foot]

As much as I like the idea of nomad settlements for steppe/nomad cultures, I'm curious how the castle/city system will be used with the more civilized cultures, that had abandoned nomadism? Or is this to be revealed in a later preview...?

For all factions and for all cultures, "castle" provinces will be for those provinces with a nomadic/pastoral social lifestyle, and "city" provinces will be for those with a settled/agricultural social lifestyle. When a civilised faction conquers a "castle" province, they will be conquering the lands of a nomadic people, and the type of buildings they can construct in such a province will be different and far more limited than their options in a "city" province.

Foot

[a completely inoffensive name]

I knew this faction would be included. Unlike the other nomad factions I might love playing an extensive campaign with this one instead of just blitzing into the required regions for heavy foot troop reforms (Saka).

The whole underdog against the mighty Carthage and the dealings with the enemy of my enemy Rome, will make the campaign very much exciting for me.

[Atraphoenix]

took my breath away!

[gamegeek2]

Great work. Only thing is, "Afrikanim" seems very, very sketchy. "Lubi" was the name of Africa AFAIK.

Old Libyan is nothing like Etruscan. Etruscan is closely linked to Raetic, and both are languages isolate. Libyan is part of the Berber languages, a division of Afro-Asiatic, which includes Semitic, Cushitic, and Chadic.

[Cute Wolf]

Made me drooling more for EB 2

Great models...

[Cartaphilus]

Fantastic job (as usual)!

And now we better can keep on waiting for the next preview.

[Leão magno]

A great void in the desert is no longer!!!! I thougth we would have two Numidians factios, still one is better than none and the great void will be filled! Great Preview!

[Elmetiacos]

Great work. Only thing is, "Afrikanim" seems very, very sketchy. "Lubi" was the name of Africa AFAIK.

Old Libyan is nothing like Etruscan. Etruscan is closely linked to Raetic, and both are languages isolate. Libyan is part of the Berber languages, a division of Afro-Asiatic, which includes Semitic, Cushitic, and Chadic.

Here's a database of reconstructed proto-Berber, should it be decided to make the attempt:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...\brbet&first=1

[Tanit]

Here's a database of reconstructed proto-Berber, should it be decided to make the attempt:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...\brbet&first=1

Thanks!

I have been searching for something like this for months and never found it. I'm giddy now! I think I might start working on this instead of sleeping!

[Ludens]

That is actually not a gladius present there, a gladius has a slight bulge in one portion of the sword. The straightsword present in the Numidian infantry is a shortsword version of the Taureg sword, a lasting influence of ancient Berber culture in North Africa today.

But do you have evidence for Roman-style infantry before the Romans sent trainers? Like I said, spears would make more sense in the context.

[Tanit]

Thanks!

I have been searching for something like this for months and never found it. I'm giddy now! I think I might start working on this instead of sleeping!

Now I know why I never found it, because its proto-Berber, whereas what i was looking for was Old Libyan, slight difference there. Might still use it, but more hesitantly.

But do you have evidence for Roman-style infantry before the Romans sent trainers? Like I said, spears would make more sense in the context.

Yes, we do.

[Beren Erchamion]

Beautiful work, EB team.

[Sarcasm]

OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

INTAM PECINAM?

And from what I can gather you're safe using elmetiacus as a varitation (if that was you intention).

[Ludens]

Yes, we do.

All right, it's your mod so you don't have to tell me. I thought it strange, that's all.

[Kara Mustafa]

Excellent work, as always.

Hope next time is going to be Boii

[Vasiliyi]

WOW, the new units look AMAZING. EB team, you are the best. Im glad this faction is being included. Shames it wasnt in EB1, it would have made my aar alot more interesting.

[delablake]

Very nice! Can't wait for EBII!!!!

[Elmetiacos]

INTAM PECINAM?

And from what I can gather you're safe using elmetiacus as a varitation (if that was you intention).

By analogy with lost colouring laryngeals seemingly doing the opposite of what we'd expect in Lusitanian (indi and ifadem) "intam" derives from PIE *anət- and so intam pecinam means "Peking duck"... Elmetiacui is a dative of an o-stem.