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Thread: Fort defenses

  1. #31
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Nice one Lars573!

    Incidentaly, after a bit of browsing i came up with this site which offers an absolute wealth of pictures and narrative, as well as what look like museum exhibits devoted to Vauban's "art".

    http://www.fortified-places.com/siege_warfare.html

  2. #32
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    I dispute this assertion. There are plenty of star forts that have most of those structures still in existance. An example from my own city, Halifax. Fort George atop citadel hill.
    Yes, thats a good picture. It obviously incorporates a lot of the features of Vauban's design but at a much reduced scale. You can definitely see the similarities in the design even though it only has one ditch and no real outworks.

    In fact, to be strictly correct this fort was an outwork for a much larger fortress protecting the town of Halifax itself, it was orignally one of five such forts surrounding the city. I beleive the original fort was built in 1776 and was just a three story blockhouse protecting a 14 gun battery overlooking the harbour, it was modified in 1828 to the current star fort design and not finished until 1856.

    Nevertheless, I agree that it gives a much better idea of what a fort with an intact glacis would have looked like. There has been very little encroachment on the walls of the fort and the slope though mostly natural hillside is still visible. If one were to imagine that on a much larger scale with a second ditch and covered-way then it would be a good example of full sized star fort.

    Mind you even in that smaller scale it would be a lot harder to take than the ETW version.

    @Alh_p: Well spotted thats a good site.
    Last edited by Didz; 06-29-2009 at 18:09.
    Didz
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  3. #33
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz
    Yes, thats a good picture. It obviously incorporates a lot of the features of Vauban's design but at a much reduced scale. You can definitely see the similarities in the design even though it only has one ditch and no real outworks.
    Fort George was the centre piece of the defensive complex of Halifax. Which included a dozen other smaller forts, redoubts, and batteries. The last line of defense against taking the city. That combined with the size of the hill top would have precluded the need for a second ditch or outworks. It was also where the garrison commander would have been based, along with quarters for the troops. Although those buildings were torn down years ago. You can see the where they used to be in the upper left of the picture, called the "garrison grounds." They hold outdoor concerts there now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz
    In fact, to be strictly correct this fort was an outwork for a much larger fortress protecting the town of Halifax itself, it was orignally one of five such forts surrounding the city. I beleive the original fort was built in 1776 and was just a three story blockhouse protecting a 14 gun battery overlooking the harbour, it was modified in 1828 to the current star fort design and not finished until 1856.
    Pretty much it. The hill was the most western of the forts protecting the original town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz
    Nevertheless, I agree that it gives a much better idea of what a fort with an intact glacis would have looked like. There has been very little encroachment on the walls of the fort and the slope though mostly natural hillside is still visible. If one were to imagine that on a much larger scale with a second ditch and covered-way then it would be a good example of full sized star fort.
    The reason for that is the citadel was a military instilation of some form until 1947. After which is was designated a national historic site and turned into a living history museum (every summer they pay people to play soldiers of the 78th highlanders, and gunners of the 3rd artillery brigade). But if you stand on the side walks you can see on the lower right and look up all you can see if the tip of the parapet. The ditch is around 8 metres deep and at least 10 wide. First time I looked down on it from a gun port when I was a kid I got more than a little dizzy.
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    I like the size of that fort George. It looks like it can be fully-manned by 6-8 units of infantry in game. The size of the forts right now is the biggest problem IMO. If they made the small wooden fort able to be fully-manned by 3-4 units of infantry, and 6-8 for the star fort, it'd be perfect size. Just add a moat and sink the walls a bit. Although this will make cannons even more useless in game.

  5. #35
    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Here's an example that maybe partially justifies the smaller and more simplified star forts in the game, especially over in the colonies: the Castillo de San Marco in Florida:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_San_Marcos

    Large aerial photo:

    http://www.nps.gov/ser/pgalleryconte...0905164745.jpg

    No real glacis here, but then Florida is flat as a pancake and they couldn't build on a hill. It withstood two British sieges where cannon fire had little effect due to the very thick walls (and probably the relatively soft limestone used). I remember visiting this fort on family vacations several times when I was a kid growing up in Florida. It's a rare thing to see, over on this side of the pond. As a kid I always thought of it as a Medieval "castle," and only later learned about star forts from this period. Anyway, this shows that at least some forts of this type were fairly small, especially outside Europe.
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  6. #36

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    That fort is perfect size. 4-5 infantry units will hold that fort very well.

  7. #37
    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Marquis of Roland View Post
    If they made the small wooden fort able to be fully-manned by 3-4 units of infantry, and 6-8 for the star fort, it'd be perfect size. Just add a moat and sink the walls a bit. Although this will make cannons even more useless in game.
    It's not just adding the moats and trenches. There would have to be animations for infantry tunneling or bridging those defenses. Fort sieges have been simplified down to just grappling hooks or breaking the walls with cannon, probably because the animation budget was burned in other areas like the naval battles, and all the new animations in open field battles. Sieges got the short stick this time around (although we didn't get moats in M2TW either, so maybe it's just a problem in representing that realistically enough within the game development budget).

    At this late date, I can't see CA adding a whole new set of animations and commands for dealing with more complex forts, and the modders can't add animations either (AFAIK). We'll probably have to live with minor improvements like improved fire from the walls, and maybe ad-hoc ideas like adding the "ditch" to slow soldiers down on approach to the walls.
    Feaw is a weapon.... wise genewuhs use weuuhw! -- Jebe the Tyrant

  8. #38
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Well they did it for MTW2, you used to get a little hut appear at one end of the tunnel and then your mining unit filed into the hut and disappeared and after a while a little brown line started slowly heading for the castle wall.

    Once it reached the wall it began to undermine it and eventually it collapsed. The only way to stop it was to destroy the little hut at the far end, which ahd pretty nasty consequences for the unit doing the mining as I recall.

    Also whilst there were no moats in MTW2, there were in Kingdoms, so they obviously can do it. Not that star forts usually had moats, most of the ditches were dry, as they were intended to be killing grounds not just obsticals.
    Last edited by Didz; 06-29-2009 at 23:47.
    Didz
    Fortis balore et armis

  9. #39

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenicetus View Post
    It's not just adding the moats and trenches. There would have to be animations for infantry tunneling or bridging those defenses. Fort sieges have been simplified down to just grappling hooks or breaking the walls with cannon, probably because the animation budget was burned in other areas like the naval battles, and all the new animations in open field battles. Sieges got the short stick this time around (although we didn't get moats in M2TW either, so maybe it's just a problem in representing that realistically enough within the game development budget).

    At this late date, I can't see CA adding a whole new set of animations and commands for dealing with more complex forts, and the modders can't add animations either (AFAIK). We'll probably have to live with minor improvements like improved fire from the walls, and maybe ad-hoc ideas like adding the "ditch" to slow soldiers down on approach to the walls.
    I'm afraid of them adding too much stuff and more bugs come out (which of course will be the CTD variety).

    I would like them to fix troop placement on fortifications though.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    What i want more than anything else is a system where the best defense isn't to lurk in the center and surrender the walls. We've had this same nonsense since RTW.

    And for an AI defense that won't just file out of the fort into my musketfire as soon as a breach is made

  11. #41
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Well they did it for MTW2, you used to get a little hut appear at one end of the tunnel and then your mining unit filed into the hut and disappeared and after a while a little brown line started slowly heading for the castle wall.
    Actually thinking about this later I'm not sure it was MTW2, I think it might have been RTW. I have a vague recollection of sticking velites down the mine.
    Didz
    Fortis balore et armis

  12. #42
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    Actually thinking about this later I'm not sure it was MTW2, I think it might have been RTW. I have a vague recollection of sticking velites down the mine.
    yarp, t'was RTW. Didn't you have to siege for 2 turns before it was an available siege instrument?

  13. #43

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Caelius View Post
    Yes I've wandered around a few period fortification, - i like them very much. I lived for a while in Freiburg, not far from Neuf Breisach which has some very well preserved Vauban fortifications.

    But this time to add to an impressive tale of woe, i must relate the assault i recently performed.

    RTI campaign, stage 3.

    I attacked a strongly defended Philadephia with my main stack.

    I made a breach in the wall easily enough (see earlier comments) and marched three regiments of Colonial line infantry to form a U at the mouth of the breach, safely in the dead zone (see earlier comments). There are other details to the events, but to keep it simple, what basically happened is one by one, the defending units left their positions and advanced out of the breach into the concentrated fire of my three line infantry.

    One by one they exited the fort and got mown down.

    By the time i got round to actually entering the fort, there were only 3 defending units left, an artillery unit, one horse and a line infantry that spent it's last few minutes of life going into and out of square formation (i had no cavalry with me in the fort).

    The British did have one, albeit not the last, laugh. General Washington was killed. Although not by British gunfire. I ordered him to move somewhere without paying too much attention and he got mown down by his own artillery at very close range.


    This is easily explainable, CA must have put a "all soldiers drunk due to severely retarded commander" variable into battle calculations. This factor comes up all the time for me, yes very realistic

  14. #44

    Default Re: Fort defenses

    Yes i think if asked the question, what would be the absolute worst tactic you could try when defending a fort, you'd be hard pressed to think of a worse one than the AI here tried.

    ...............................................

    I actually think that CA has made a fundamental error with regard to their policy with AI (inc. for diplomacy).

    It is so very weak that they ought not consider it one of their key proprietary technologies. Anyone who stole the AI as it is, is not going to benefit from this possession.

    instead i think CA should make the AIs modular, and left open for modding.

    This would be an invitation to really get things improving. Battles fought between different AIs for example, writing different AIs for different situations, generals, so on. CA would get to outsource the work for free, and be able to use the better ones as the basis for future games.

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