Twitter discussion

[Phalanx300]

Good news, just one thing on the new Hoplite animation, it looks good but seems unhistorical.

Its makes it impossible to keep formation, just look at these videos, in formation fighting it wasn't fancy it was formation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XL...eature=related

[antisocialmunky]

Not all fighting was done in formation though... And I'd rather have variety over making everything look 100% accurate with the current engine.

[-Praetor-]

seems unhistorical

#1 While there's a discussion going on about which form of hoplite fighting techniques were used, our mod decided to go for the overhand alternative because there's oodles more information and evidence in favour of this theory.
#2 Going for the overhand option doesn't mean that the hoplite wouldn't have used the spear underhand or utilized its buttspike. One of the reasons for adding that spike was to use it as alternative weapon when the point breaked during battle (which was not uncommon) or when the conditions of the battle dictated that it was advisable to use it in detriment of the point.
#3 Because of that, it is not a-historical to make the hoplite us its buttspike on exceptional events like the one posted. Rather, its the other way around.
#4 The clipping is avoided by the reasons explained on this post.
#5 While your argument regarding the close shield wall (synaspismos) has merit, for engine reasons, we cannot represent it in a way that is 100% faithful to the historical synaspismos during a charge, because the hoplites give too much space between them during the charge, and don't maintain their shield wall as they do when they are idle. We are trying to solve this.

The usage of this kind of exceptional movements (be underhand, be thrusting with the buttspike) is undisputed historically (it is like saying that a legionary never used a slashing stroke to the legs during battle. What if it was advisable for him to do so, even though his training dictated that he had to do only precise stabbing attacks to preserve stamina?).

Gameplay-wise, we are just trying to give you guys something cool to see like this animation, but if it doesn't work ingame, we will dump it. As simple as that.

Historical-wise: It isn't ahistorical. As simple as that.

PS: In the videos you posted, the shield wall they are representing is ahistorical. The shields should be placed like this. One in the back, and the next one in the front.

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[Bucefalo]

I wonder why people won´t trust the EB team to make the right decisions both concerning gameplay and historical accuracy.

Keep up the good work EB team, those hoplite animations are amazing indeed!

[-Praetor-]

Just a note, critics are not an inherently bad thing. Its not like we like our work being questioned at every turn either, but constructive criticism (constructive criticism is, in my opinion, criticizing something while offering an alternative at the same time) like the one phalanx300 did are welcome, especially when they are made in an educated, respectful tone.

Critics like this however, are not.

[The General]

Again more modeling news, the indian chariot is finished. Looks quite vicious. -Tux

Interesting, new things to play with.

At least the Royal Baktrian army probably needs to have one of these if they look cool, as a prestige unit.

[MeinPanzer]

I wonder if Indian cavalry will be included in EBII...

[Iron Fist]

Things are getting interesting here :D

An important multi-factional greek scout cavalry has been finalized, at last! 10 different and awesome skins (40 torsos!) by Gustave. - JMRC

Just integrated the 3rd steppe horse archer unit, from one of the most powerful sarmatian confederacies. Great skins by Gustave. - JMRC

Today we've reached in our build, the 300th texture file (about half are normal files) and 75 models (including officers and mounts). - JMRC

[Phalanx300]

Wow great news!

#1 While there's a discussion going on about which form of hoplite fighting techniques were used, our mod decided to go for the overhand alternative because there's oodles more information and evidence in favour of this theory.
#2 Going for the overhand option doesn't mean that the hoplite wouldn't have used the spear underhand or utilized its buttspike. One of the reasons for adding that spike was to use it as alternative weapon when the point breaked during battle (which was not uncommon) or when the conditions of the battle dictated that it was advisable to use it in detriment of the point.
#3 Because of that, it is not a-historical to make the hoplite us its buttspike on exceptional events like the one posted. Rather, its the other way around.
#4 The clipping is avoided by the reasons explained on this post.
#5 While your argument regarding the close shield wall (synaspismos) has merit, for engine reasons, we cannot represent it in a way that is 100% faithful to the historical synaspismos during a charge, because the hoplites give too much space between them during the charge, and don't maintain their shield wall as they do when they are idle. We are trying to solve this.

The usage of this kind of exceptional movements (be underhand, be thrusting with the buttspike) is undisputed historically (it is like saying that a legionary never used a slashing stroke to the legs during battle. What if it was advisable for him to do so, even though his training dictated that he had to do only precise stabbing attacks to preserve stamina?).

Gameplay-wise, we are just trying to give you guys something cool to see like this animation, but if it doesn't work ingame, we will dump it. As simple as that.

Historical-wise: It isn't ahistorical. As simple as that.

PS: In the videos you posted, the shield wall they are representing is ahistorical. The shields should be placed like this. One in the back, and the next one in the front.

--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--

#1 Well underhand is used in some vases yet I've never seen underhand used in a depiction of a battle but in a duel. While overhand is used to portray battles a lot.
#2 Yes it was used, but to charge in with it and then changing it at the last moment to overhand seems impossible. Eespecially if you figure that both parties charge, because of the impact of both lines charges you can sure hit your opponent with underhand but you will never be able to change it back to overhand with your allies pushing from the back and your enemies pushing from the front.(and what now is the front pike will hurt someone in the back).
#3 Them using underhand in formation does indeed seem unhistorical to me. To use the buttspike in an underhand overhead way when the spear has broken does seem realistic to me but to charge in with it when I think about both lines charging just seems too unpractical to get it to overhand again.

Is it Historical? In loose order fighting definately. In the Phalanx, it just isn't practical considering the time and space needed to change it back to overhand.

I'm not saying the use of the butt pike is unhistorical, just the way how its use in the animation.

Never seen the Phalanx like that! You have some more information on that?

Also here you can see on the vases that the group does portray the Hoplite Phalanx how its portrayed there with locked shields:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/vie...p?f=63&t=27460

Universities have even contacted the group to get to know the system of the Phalanx better.

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Not all fighting was done in formation though... And I'd rather have variety over making everything look 100% accurate with the current engine.

Well no, but for Hoplites formation can make all the diverance for victory. Well is that the true EB way?

[antisocialmunky]

Hoplites didn't always stick in phalanx but there's no way to make the animations that conditional with shield wall unlike pike wall.

[Phalanx300]

Hoplites didn't always stick in phalanx but there's no way to make the animations that conditional with shield wall unlike pike wall.

Can´t really think of any battle in which they purposely didn´t, their formation is what made them win the battles.

[-Praetor-]

It all boils down to two things:

What was the predominant hoplite style fighting?Overhand.
Did they use underhand on exceptional occasions? Certainly.

We all agree on the exceptions you've put forward, which are well based, but you cannot seriously think that 8000 hoplites in a battleline would charge without any spacing between them, or that the synaspismos would work perfectly all along the line. Some hoplites would have spacings between one and another, allowing this and other kind of movements.

This is exceptional and utilized when the conditions allowed it. How many times do I have to tell that?

[antisocialmunky]

They didn't do it on Day 3 of Thermopylae :-p

[Phalanx300]

They didn't do it on Day 3 of Thermopylae :-p

They did in 300.

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It all boils down to two things:

What was the predominant hoplite style fighting?Overhand.
Did they use underhand on exceptional occasions? Certainly.

We all agree on the exceptions you've put forward, which are well based, but you cannot seriously think that 8000 hoplites in a battleline would charge without any spacing between them, or that the synaspismos would work perfectly all along the line. Some hoplites would have spacings between one and another, allowing this and other kind of movements.

This is exceptional and utilized when the conditions allowed it. How many times do I have to tell that?

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place? There isn't any solid proof of that, as far as we know they could as easilly marched in formation. Why do you think writers were so amaxed at the Athenians charging at Marathon, they charged and just before engaging reformed the Phalanx since chargings disrupts the Phalanx. Otherwise what use is war music? What use is the formation?

So you are saying one Hoplite would charge out of the formation risking the lives of his comrades to to an underhand attack and then quickly change to overhand with both sides charging? That just isn't practical.

It just isn't practical, which by all means makes it not fully Historical, especially if you see Hoplites as charging soldiers which means he just doesn't have the time to do it since he would have to do it within a second.

I think the animation is more a thing for loose order fighting and not in the Phalanx dense formation.

[Ca Putt]

hey it is a charge anim, so only(seldom) used IF you charge which you normally do without interlocked shields. It's not used when normally engaging an opponent in tight formation.

[Phalanx300]

hey it is a charge anim, so only(seldom) used IF you charge which you normally do without interlocked shields. It's not used when normally engaging an opponent in tight formation.

When attacking your units auto-charge.

And even if you don't charge with interlocked shield your allies and your enemies don't freeze to give you enough time to go from under to overhand and that without hurting an ally (which definately happens in a non perfect shieldwall).

[-Praetor-]

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place?

I do.

There isn't any solid proof of that, as far as we know they could as easilly marched in formation. Why do you think writers were so amaxed at the Athenians charging at Marathon, they charged and just before engaging reformed the Phalanx since chargings disrupts the Phalanx.

Yet yourself provide a historical case where hoplites charged at the enemy. Herodotus himself said, in his account, that the "Athenians were the first to introduce the custom of charging the enemy at a run" on this occassion... and that happened more than 200 years before our timeframe.

The historians were amazed at the distance the athenians charged, considering the panoply they had on them. Most of the time, the phalanxes would build momentum at a fast but steady pace, and only on the last meters make a full charge against the enemy hoping to break the enemy with the momentum already built.

We are trying to represent an alternative to be used when some minor gaps would have opened in the shield wall, during the last meters of the charge, and we are trying to portrait that with this animation.

I think the animation is more a thing for loose order fighting and not in the Phalanx dense formation.

Well, that's the thing. We cannot fine-tune the game to utilize one charging animation for one formation, and another for another formation. We cannot make the engine calculate how much space there is between one individual soldier and another. Yet, for that reason we will scrap this animation? Because fo that reasoning, we should also scrap another animation where the hoplite finishes off an opponent with the buttspike, because that animation, despite being historical, needs some space to change the direction of the spear, and your reasoning is that in a shield wall there wasn't space to use the doru like that.

So you are saying one Hoplite would charge out of the formation risking the lives of his comrades to to an underhand attack and then quickly change to overhand with both sides charging? That just isn't practical.

Where did I said that? That's a straw man argument.

I usually stop debating when fallacies start to become involved like in this case, and this won't be the exception.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Who says that Hoplites would charge in the first place? There isn't any solid proof of that

There is literature which suggests this ranging from Homer to Xenophon: http://books.google.com/books?id=6HX...charge&f=false

That's just a quick google search.

[antisocialmunky]

~500 years of Hoplite Fighting and no one does a charge? Rofl.

[Phalanx300]

~500 years of Hoplite Fighting and no one does a charge? Rofl.

I'm sure Phalangites in their years did it as well.

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

Yet yourself provide a historical case where hoplites charged at the enemy. Herodotus himself said, in his account, that the "Athenians were the first to introduce the custom of charging the enemy at a run" on this occassion... and that happened more than 200 years before our timeframe.

The historians were amazed at the distance the athenians charged, considering the panoply they had on them. Most of the time, the phalanxes would build momentum at a fast but steady pace, and only on the last meters make a full charge against the enemy hoping to break the enemy with the momentum already built.

We are trying to represent an alternative to be used when some minor gaps would have opened in the shield wall, during the last meters of the charge, and we are trying to portrait that with this animation.

Yes, though I take the way that he ment they charged to avoid the arrows and before impact they halted and reformed the Phalanx.

And again it shows its and exception rather then the usual.

Well, that's the thing. We cannot fine-tune the game to utilize one charging animation for one formation, and another for another formation. We cannot make the engine calculate how much space there is between one individual soldier and another. Yet, for that reason we will scrap this animation? Because fo that reasoning, we should also scrap another animation where the hoplite finishes off an opponent with the buttspike, because that animation, despite being historical, needs some space to change the direction of the spear, and your reasoning is that in a shield wall there wasn't space to use the doru like that.

If its unhistorical then scrap it, as simple as that.

Ofcourse you could use a butt pike but not underhand in an charge, its just not practical when you look at space and time needed to perform such a thing, even if the shieldwall is inperfect.

Where did I said that? That's a straw man argument.

I usually stop debating when fallacies start to become involved like in this case, and this won't be the exception.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

There is literature which suggests this ranging from Homer to Xenophon: http://books.google.com/books?id=6HX...charge&f=false

That's just a quick google search.

Once again it immplies an exception rather then the common.

[antisocialmunky]

Man, you are such a buzz kill. :-p

[Knight of Ne]

LOL, all this hassle over a simple animation that makes a cool change now and again. I really don't see what the hassle is.

P.S. I really love that animation, the amount of thought thats gone in to it is brilliant. Great work.

Knight of Ne =)

[Phalanx300]

Yes it sure is an nice and impressive animation, I'm just thinking its more fancy then practical in Phalanx warfare.

Man, you are such a buzz kill. :-p

Well I just argue because I care about the mod =P.

That reminds me we should have EB multiplayer match sometime again :P.

[Ludens]

I just mean that is was rather an exception then a common thing as it puts the formation at risk.

The exception of Marathon was that the charge was carried out over such a long distance, not that it was carried out at all. In his discussion on the myths of hoplite warfare, Hans van Wees does not even debate whether hoplites charged: all his attention goes to establishing how they charged.

You just did it again, the shieldwall isn't perfect so some soldiers supposedly charge and put their allies at risk?

And strawman?

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

[Parallel Pain]

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.

[Phalanx300]

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.

Well yeah and then the enemy coming forward at the same time and with your allies in your back.

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

Then I gues it all comes down to how dense the Phalanx would be.

And even then such animations for reasons above would be near-impossible to do. Especially with both lines charging at full speed.

And I'll see if I can find something on that Van Wees guy.

[antisocialmunky]

I am however a little curious how feasible it is physically though and it would be unpleasant for the guy behind you. Not really an issue for loose formation though.

[mountaingoat]

maybe some people can field test this

[Parallel Pain]

I think the formation is loose enough during the charge (when the formation is bound to break up a bit) to carry out the move. But logically assuming that the two sides make contact during the "thrust" animation, then the enemy and his shield wall obviously isn't too far in front.
Since, as already pointed out, the recovery must be parallel and can not angle or you'll hit the leg of the guy on the right, the spear is extending it's maximum combat length (4 to 6 feet?) out from the hand. I would think then a feet or two would get caught in the enemy formation.

Though maybe the hand can be pulled back far enough to allow the withdraw. Need an actual spear to test that.

Considering that people were shorter back then, a hoplite using a longer spear trying to carry out that move would also have to be careful that his spear doesn't get stuck in the ground when withdrawing, loosing time when the formation would be closing up.

[Ludens]

And I'll see if I can find something on that Van Wees guy.

Sorry for not giving a reference: I assumed you would be familiar with him. He's in the EB bibliography. I don't agree with everything he writes, but his criticism of the preconceived ideas about hoplite warfare is persuasive.