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Thread: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

  1. #1
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Thumbs down dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Playing as France I had Wurtenberg as my protectorate. Spain (my ally) attacks Wurtenberg. Given the two diplomatic choices (side with the defender or the attacker) I side with Wurtenberg.

    Once I open the diplomatic screen my relationships with ALL western factions (INCLUDING WURTENBER) have suffered a -200 penalty for dishonoring alliance... That's complete nonsense, especially that -200 hit with the faction I am defending...


  2. #2
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Does it really matter? You can hand out presents to the AI and treat them like a little princess and they will declare war anyway, no matter your relations, or that comes close to my experience anyway, the diplomacy in the game is basically set to make you steamroll one AI after the other, I've already expressed in other threads that I find that rather sad, my prussian overseas expansion will never come to fruition after half of europe declared war on me and won't accepot peace under any circumstances, if it goes on like that I won't need ships to reach India, which was my original plan...


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  3. #3
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Does it really matter? You can hand out presents to the AI and treat them like a little princess and they will declare war anyway, no matter your relations, or that comes close to my experience anyway, the diplomacy in the game is basically set to make you steamroll one AI after the other, I've already expressed in other threads that I find that rather sad, my prussian overseas expansion will never come to fruition after half of europe declared war on me and won't accepot peace under any circumstances, if it goes on like that I won't need ships to reach India, which was my original plan...
    Well, at least the author of Imperial Splendor had managed to tweak the diplomatic triggers to the extent that one got an illusion of reasonable diplomatic relationships, so, reasonable diplomacy IS doable even with the current game engine. I am just upset by the obvious laziness on the CA part to design differentiated (reasonable) diplomatic triggers.

    Ok, I'd be fine to suffer diplomatic attitude consequence for breaking one alliance in favor of the other, but NOT with the faction I am defending by that very choice... It's just plain stupid.

    By the way, even with the vanilla 1.02 game I managed to keep my original alliances intact all the way to 1799 playing as Turkey and Russia on VH game setting.
    Last edited by Slaists; 06-30-2009 at 21:38.

  4. #4
    Member Member Durallan's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Husar try buying a province in america or india, I bought hispaniola off the spanish for a song and thats what started my overseas expansion, once you get the overseas province make it into a military governors barracks and build yourself an army =)

    and yes this is definetly broken, I had the same problem and I only noticed 3 turns later that even my protectorates were HOSTILE with me because I decided to side with them! so I had to go 3 turns back and let france take the italian states without me becoming their protector, I'd rather keep my reputation as little as there is left of it in game lol
    Last edited by Durallan; 07-01-2009 at 11:12.
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    Member Member Razor1952's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    Playing as France I had Wurtenberg as my protectorate. Spain (my ally) attacks Wurtenberg. Given the two diplomatic choices (side with the defender or the attacker) I side with Wurtenberg.

    Once I open the diplomatic screen my relationships with ALL western factions (INCLUDING WURTENBER) have suffered a -200 penalty for dishonoring alliance... That's complete nonsense, especially that -200 hit with the faction I am defending...

    What would have happened if you had sided with Spain?. I presume the same?.


    Surely this means that now you only sign an alliance very carefully, as should be the case.

    In my experience breaking alliance has not led to such a huge hit. I agree with CA however that all countries should view you as untrustworthy( with some diplomatic hit) if you break an alliance, though not as in your case if the war is between two allies.
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    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Spain is your ally from the start, and making Wurtemberg a protectorate should be far more honourable than annexing it.
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  7. #7
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor1952 View Post
    What would have happened if you had sided with Spain?. I presume the same?.


    Surely this means that now you only sign an alliance very carefully, as should be the case.

    In my experience breaking alliance has not led to such a huge hit. I agree with CA however that all countries should view you as untrustworthy( with some diplomatic hit) if you break an alliance, though not as in your case if the war is between two allies.
    I did reload the save game, replayed the huge battle that preceded the aforementioned DOW. This time around, I sided with Spain. I did not receive ANY diplo hit whatsoever for going to war with the defending protectorate...

    I guess, CA values regular alliances more than protectorate type alliances...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    Spain is your ally from the start, and making Wurtemberg a protectorate should be far more honourable than annexing it.
    So, what are you saying? As I described above Wurtemberg IS my protectorate.
    Last edited by Slaists; 07-02-2009 at 15:31.

  8. #8
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    I was replying to Razor, when he said

    Surely this means that now you only sign an alliance very carefully, as should be the case.
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  9. #9
    Member Member Mumu Champion Prodigal's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Interesting findings on the reload, but it doesn't really strike me as that big a surprise; Spain is the global power, at the start of the game at anyrate. As such it has, (if it could be bothered), the ability to create serious issues for almost any faction anywhere, so who would you rather remain on friendly terms with?

    Oh but I forget, the above is complete nonsense because the diplomacy is broken...*yawn*

  10. #10
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    However, with the current AI and its random declarations of war, it makes alliances a complete crapshoot. As it is, there is effectively no real reason to sign an alliance, since all it does is increase your chance of getting dragged into yet more wars, or getting that diplomatic hit.

    And while I agree that there should be a diplo hit for breaking an alliance, it shouldn't be that large. At least for minors. I would say -100 for breaking an alliance with a major, -25/50 for breaking an alliance with a minor. With different penalties based on the religion/government of said state.

    For example, the penalty should be less if a Catholic, monarchy breaks an alliance with a Hindu, republic, since nobody would really expect such an alliance to work out anyway.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    I have to say actually it makes sense. As Progidial noted Spain is a global powerhouse whereas Wurtenberg is a largely unknown and unheard country.

    So obviously France breaking an alliance with Spain:
    1, would make the headlines as everyone would be interested in that. Everyone would sense that "there is something in the air".
    2, Spain would be able to swing public oppinion to his favour much better than Wurtenberg. Not all countries in Europe could afford to ignore Spain.

    (Think of it as any of the major Europian NATO countries breaking alliance with the USA. What would be the public reaction?)

    On the other hand France breaking alliance with Wurtenberg:
    1, So what? Irrelevant to most countries.
    2, Wurtenberg obviously would be unable to influence public oppinion to any noticable degree.

    This is exactly what you get in the game.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Protectorates should not have any independent foreign relations.

    When someone declares war on your protectorate, they declare war on you. When you make peace with a nation, that includes your protectorate.

  13. #13
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
    I have to say actually it makes sense. As Progidial noted Spain is a global powerhouse whereas Wurtenberg is a largely unknown and unheard country.

    So obviously France breaking an alliance with Spain:
    1, would make the headlines as everyone would be interested in that. Everyone would sense that "there is something in the air".
    2, Spain would be able to swing public oppinion to his favour much better than Wurtenberg. Not all countries in Europe could afford to ignore Spain.

    (Think of it as any of the major Europian NATO countries breaking alliance with the USA. What would be the public reaction?)

    On the other hand France breaking alliance with Wurtenberg:
    1, So what? Irrelevant to most countries.
    2, Wurtenberg obviously would be unable to influence public oppinion to any noticable degree.

    This is exactly what you get in the game.
    Well, I agree about the publicity aspect of Spain versus Wurtenberg siding; I can even agree about a global diplomatic hit for siding with a protectorate rather than the agressor (Spain).

    However, the fact that my relationship with WURTENBERG suffer the -200 diplo hit does not make any sense to me. I am protecting the darned thing after all...

    BTW, in that game Wurtenberg was not a minor power at the time of DOW. I had granted them Westphalia, Netherlands, Hannover and Denmark... In terms of province count Wurtenberg was bigger than all European French territories taken together.

  14. #14
    Member Member Tillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
    I have to say actually it makes sense. As Progidial noted Spain is a global powerhouse whereas Wurtenberg is a largely unknown and unheard country.

    So obviously France breaking an alliance with Spain:
    1, would make the headlines as everyone would be interested in that. Everyone would sense that "there is something in the air".
    2, Spain would be able to swing public oppinion to his favour much better than Wurtenberg. Not all countries in Europe could afford to ignore Spain.

    (Think of it as any of the major Europian NATO countries breaking alliance with the USA. What would be the public reaction?)

    On the other hand France breaking alliance with Wurtenberg:
    1, So what? Irrelevant to most countries.
    2, Wurtenberg obviously would be unable to influence public oppinion to any noticable degree.

    This is exactly what you get in the game.
    I just wish to point out the recent conflict between Russia and Georgia goes against your assessment somewhat.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    During this time period, nations swapped sides all the time . . . sometimes during the same war (Prussia during the Great Northern War, or Russia during the Seven Years War, for example). There should be a penalty, but not that great of one.

    Honestly, 1.0 diplomacy was the best, minus the AI never asking for peace and repeatedly re-declaring war after accepting peace. Sadly, these two problems have not been fixed, as the AI is still loath to end wars, and it still redeclares war on the player after decisively losing a war and accepting peace, if the player holds a "key" territory. Wars should be short, seldom to annihilation, and nations should generall offer/accept peace once one side or the other has achieved limited victory (defeated a large army or captured a contested terrirtory).
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  16. #16
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    So Prodigal, Cheetah, what you are saying is that if the human player is the most powerful nation, then breaking all your alliances and declaring war on anyone you like should make people hate everyone else but you because you are able to influence all media?

    Try your argument again.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    1, I agree that protectorates are not modelled correctly, they should not be living their own lifes in terms of diplomacy, and that wars declared on a protectorate should imply war on the protector automatically (i.e. in this case on France).

    2, I agree that if Wurtenberg was a major factor in Europe then the penalties are not truly proportional.

    3, Please do not get me wrong I am not arguing that the diplomacy is perfect or that it cannot be improved.

    4, All I am saying that it makes perfect sense to me that the larger, more influental is your ex-ally the larger diplomatic damage it can cause to you.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillan View Post
    I just wish to point out the recent conflict between Russia and Georgia goes against your assessment somewhat.
    There was no alliance between the NATO and Russia and the NATO never dared to sent troops into Georgia. As for the public oppinion (of the "neutral" countries, if there is any), I dont know, we mostly live in NATO countries I assume.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    Quote Originally Posted by FactionHeir View Post
    So Prodigal, Cheetah, what you are saying is that if the human player is the most powerful nation, then breaking all your alliances and declaring war on anyone you like should make people hate everyone else but you because you are able to influence all media?

    Try your argument again.
    This is what the big guys do all the time. Declare wars left, right and centre and use your PR machine to depict the other side as the bad guys. I am not saying it works all the time, but how much you succeed clearly depends on how influential you are and much the other countries depend on you.
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  20. #20
    Member Member Mumu Champion Prodigal's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    The actual size of france & spain's home territories; personally I find it a bit ridiculous that the whole of spain is one region, same with france, I suspect it was done to limit their troop generating abilities, but I digress. The sheer size of France & Spain may have some affect, even with the territories Slaists describes giving to them, Spain is actually bigger than all those put together so as a trade partner far more important to other factions.

    I'd like to think the monarchy has some bearing, although suspect its simply wishful thinking, at the time Spain & France's monarchies were related to each other specifically to strengthen their alliance, so siding against them could trigger a stronger negative reaction. Also what is the government type of Wurtenberg? Could the regional reaction also be influenced by the government type?

    It would be interesting to see if the length of an alliance plays a role in the consequences of declaring war.

    Quite frankly its all beginning to get a bit painful, it would be good to hear something from CA about how the diplo. works, but hazard they're worried about reaction.

    Going off at a total tangent, something I would like to see is the relations between monarchies, and to have family tree's brought back in so you could create/strengthen alliances by marrying off family members. It would make wars of succession which presently feel, (& probably are), like bog standard event triggers far more interesting & add some further depth to the game.

    Slaists do you still have your save? If so could you try siding with Wurtenberg again to see if the penalty hit is the same. If it is then there's some reason for it, & if CA won't say it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
    Last edited by Prodigal; 07-03-2009 at 07:55. Reason: Question for Slaists

  21. #21
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: dishonoring alliances score completely broken in 1.03

    I think it's funny, myself, that minors STILL produce larger armies in Europe that both France and Spain. GEORGIA has a larger army and, in my latest Ottoman campaign, has taken over much of Eastern Russia.
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