I'm happy with the AI

[Claudio]

For the first time, I must compliment the game on its AI.

Playing as France, HARD CAMPAIGN / MEDIUM BATTLES - the year is 1702. Westphalia declare war on me along with Wurttemburg at the same time. I have a choice in who to campaign against first, and I pick Westphalia. I besiege their city immediately, and their only army is inside. They sally on the next turn, and I am blessed with the fortune of an excellent defensive position. A hill overlooking their advance, with rocks covering the front of it that units cannot walk over. I plant my two units of demi-cannons here, flanked by line infantry.

As the battle starts, I have my demi-cannons fire on their two units of cavalry, routing each unit almost instantly thanks to me having a perfect advantageous position. I then fire on their general, killing him and routing his unit. The army is still only halfway toward my position, so I fire on the biggest mass of units I can see, killing 25-30 men per volley. They reach my line but have lost heart. They chain rout almost instantly. My lancers cut them down as they run. It was a sight to behold, it brought a lump to my throat, and I felt sorry for the poor Westphalians.

The good times weren't over though. After losing 80% of their army, to only 16 casualties of my own, the Westphalians IMMEDIATELY sued for peace after the battle. Not being content with only a peace treaty, I demanded an alliance and 5,000 florins. Since I could destroy them at any moment, I feel the terms were fair.

THEY ACCEPTED! They said they thought the terms could be better, but they could agree to them. It might just be a fluke, but it's amazing, and it's the first time I have seen such a thing in this game, and I certainly never expected it on hard campaign difficulty.

[Yun Dog]

For the first time, I must compliment the game on its AI.

Playing as France, HARD CAMPAIGN / MEDIUM BATTLES - the year is 1702. Westphalia declare war on me along with Wurttemburg at the same time. I have a choice in who to campaign against first, and I pick Westphalia. I besiege their city immediately, and their only army is inside. They sally on the next turn, and I am blessed with the fortune of an excellent defensive position. A hill overlooking their advance, with rocks covering the front of it that units cannot walk over. I plant my two units of demi-cannons here, flanked by line infantry.

As the battle starts, I have my demi-cannons fire on their two units of cavalry, routing each unit almost instantly thanks to me having a perfect advantageous position. I then fire on their general, killing him and routing his unit. The army is still only halfway toward my position, so I fire on the biggest mass of units I can see, killing 25-30 men per volley. They reach my line but have lost heart. They chain rout almost instantly. My lancers cut them down as they run. It was a sight to behold, it brought a lump to my throat, and I felt sorry for the poor Westphalians.

The good times weren't over though. After losing 80% of their army, to only 16 casualties of my own, the Westphalians IMMEDIATELY sued for peace after the battle. Not being content with only a peace treaty, I demanded an alliance and 5,000 florins. Since I could destroy them at any moment, I feel the terms were fair.

THEY ACCEPTED! They said they thought the terms could be better, but they could agree to them. It might just be a fluke, but it's amazing, and it's the first time I have seen such a thing in this game, and I certainly never expected it on hard campaign difficulty.

your post is a beautiful and well written expression of everything I think is gimped about this game

heres a different angle
they stupidly declared a war they were ill prepared for because of the CAIs border war diplomacy model - they didnt ally with each ohter before declaring war

having declared war they passively sit in their city - rather than some sort of combined alliance attack

The resulting milk run was due to AI predictable flank with cav manouver, General-seeking artillary, and generally gimped battle AI cause its units to flounder around like jellyfish

Then they sued for peace... and you accepted !! why? they were kaput .. do you want to have to replay this in a few turns when they senselessly declare war again.

Its not exactly the description of a challenging battle

I guess its ok if your satisfied playing out a game of unchallenging repetitive battles with the game end already a forgone conclusion

but that would bore me to tears

[AussieGiant]

And the dichotomy of the first two posts is exactly why we will be discussing AI in 2050 with some TW game!!!

Can you imagine the inability of a AI to satisfy totally opposing human views on strategy and tactics?!

One man's Picasso is another man's lump of

So I say with all sincerity and conviction.

"TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!!!!"

[Fisherking]

Westphalia and Württemberg do start allied. They can put up a decent fight against the other AI factions.

The fact that they accepted peace on terms is interesting and offers some hope.

Given time to build up they will become a thorn in the side of any player they oppose. Once having made peace, though, they usually stick to it, especially if you have an alliance or other agreements.

The Battle AI often exhibits flashes of brilliance, but in the end it always plays to the strengths of the player rather than trying to win.

I do believe it is designed to fight bravely and die a glorious death. It can win but this is usually due to errors of the human player to play to his own strengths.


That is just how I see it.




I am sure that it was a fun battle and a very good use of the terrain.

[Zarky]

AI can't really empty their only town to fight you, since Westphalia is often fighting against United Provinces too so they would get wiped out quickly if they attacked you with full force, but there should be more small stack raiding parties (2 horse units maybe?).
And I also have to mention what I saw the other day, in many of my games Austria becomes continental superpower. They were allied to Westphalia, United Provinces sieged them and had nearly destroyed their armies in earlier battles and it was obvious that this was the end of Westphalia, but as I hit end turn button and turn goes to Austria, they bring massive army from Saxony-Berlin-Hannover region and beat back UP, which was really extraordinary sight in my games. Never before have I seen AI help its ally like this...

I really like the AI now, but when trying to get trade agreements or something like that with them it often ends up them giving me silly deals involving trading provinces, I really don't want their provinces which are too far away from my core territories.

[AussieGiant]

I'm in 1721 as UP on M/M, I took trade rights and an alliance with both Hannover and Westphalia .

Westphalia has got a surplus of troops and I own Flanders. What have they done, well, after France declared war, they have sent the equivalent of a full stack in three armies to sites in and around Flanders, the port there and my own port in Amsterdam. Effectively supporting me in any attempt by the French to take the provinces.

Westphalia took the province to their south east from the French. In response the French decided to attack the province to their north east. I realised they were in trouble, but due to the level of help they had given me I could march my Flanders army to their aid and spanked the French.

Not bad at all.

[econ21]

My lancers cut them down as they run.

France has lancers? In 1702?

[Northnovas]

Well I have to agree with the first post. It's playable and giving me some entertinment. I am mucking around with an Austrian Campaign and at 1775 I will post more when done. There are still issues but on the campaign side with the AI it's come a long way since release.

I am getting some fun out out it so I am happy. As for predictablity once you completed any TW campaign there is a lot of familiarity to the game play against the AI.

[Fisherking]

France has lancers? In 1702?

But they never get dragoons or light dragoons.

[econ21]

But they never get dragoons or light dragoons.

Shows how little I have played ETW, but I did not realise the French got lancers in 1702. I assumed they were ahistorical for the ETW period as I know the French reintroduced the lancer in the Napoleonic period, following the success of Polish lancers. Seems like my assumption was right - before that, the lancer had died out in Western Europe soon after the Thirty Years War:

http://www.historynet.com/weaponry-lancers.htm

[Owen Glyndwr]

C'mon now, this is CA. Do you really think they are going to care about ahistorical units being present in their game?

This is the same company that brought us the Egyptians and Arcani of Rome: TW vanilla, after all.

[nameless]

I don't think the engine is designed to actually introduce units at specific times like RTW with the Marius reforms.

I suppose they could've set the "Lance" as a tech upgrade that would unlock it or leave it for higher level barracks.

Prussia I know gets lancers once they capture Saxony and Prague I think with higher level barracks.

[knoddy]

or maybe he just calls his cavalry lancers cos he feels like it....

as to the AI ive seen some promising things in my recent game as spain on VH/H

it was a campaign i started b4 the patch, when i loaded in after my first turn i had 3 different peace treaties offered. all from factions i had been winning against previously. the only faction which wont offer me peace and wont accept my peace treaties was the Italian states and this was because I abandoned my Italian provinces to take africa from barbary.

also on my first turn the half stack of morocco rebels which had been sitting doing nothing moved on my town which only had 2 units of militia in it and took it back. this stack had been inactive for 10+ turns doing nothing just sitting fortified with only those 2 units of militia in the town 1 turn away (and no town watch or w/e)

aside from this the AI is being much more active. GB just launched an naval invasion of France, my protectorate New Spain is blockading ports and attacking the native indians in america. Prussia is carving up Europe although most of the minors are still alive. i havnt had any mindless DoW on me since the patch. even the pirates are more actively blocking ports.

your post is a beautiful and well written expression of everything I think is gimped about this game

heres a different angle
they stupidly declared a war they were ill prepared for because of the CAIs border war diplomacy model - they didnt ally with each ohter before declaring war

having declared war they passively sit in their city - rather than some sort of combined alliance attack

The resulting milk run was due to AI predictable flank with cav manouver, General-seeking artillary, and generally gimped battle AI cause its units to flounder around like jellyfish

Then they sued for peace... and you accepted !! why? they were kaput .. do you want to have to replay this in a few turns when they senselessly declare war again.

Its not exactly the description of a challenging battle

I guess its ok if your satisfied playing out a game of unchallenging repetitive battles with the game end already a forgone conclusion

but that would bore me to tears

This is an extremely negative view on his post.

1. why is the DoW stupid, france isnt much more powerful than the minors at the start, france starts with like 2? and there is probably an inbuilt dislike between the 2 nations which factors in too.

2. they sit in their city because the Ai is designed to not abandon its cities completely ALSO he stated he immediately besieged it, ie the AI didnt have a chance to go attack him.

3. the fact that they sued for peace instead of dying horribly is a good thing, that he choose to accept it is up to him and no they wont break the alliance in a few turns and DoW him.


i agree with AussieGiant it just goes to show that u cant please everyone, the new patch is a great improvement in a lot of peoples eyes but you cant please everyone.

All in all it seems much improved so im quite happy.

cheers Knoddy

[Yun Dog]

he lost 16 men



I see alot of people going along way to accomodate the AI

when really its doing the same stupid stuff as before

hey if you want a game where you fight a major battle and only lose 16 men... you will love ETW

Im not being down on you guys, clearly you are the guys that Mr Simpson referred to in his recent blog that like to not have the AI interfere with their plans for global domination, although he tried some nationalistic slant, clearly he needs to broaden his brush.

and when the Indians invade Austria with canoes Im sure that will be genius AI

as Mr Simpson said the problem isnt the AI its that we are too dumb to appreciate its Genius

erm yeh ok

[edit]:

i agree with AussieGiant it just goes to show that u cant please everyone,
cheers Knoddy

precisely... and clearly some people are alot easier to please

[pevergreen]

precisely... and clearly some people are alot easier to please

You can please me anytime you want baby.

By taking that quote out of your sig.

[knoddy]

he lost 16 men



I see alot of people going along way to accomodate the AI

when really its doing the same stupid stuff as before

hey if you want a game where you fight a major battle and only lose 16 men... you will love ETW

Im not being down on you guys, clearly you are the guys that Mr Simpson referred to in his recent blog that like to not have the AI interfere with their plans for global domination, although he tried some nationalistic slant, clearly he needs to broaden his brush.

and when the Indians invade Austria with canoes Im sure that will be genius AI

as Mr Simpson said the problem isnt the AI its that we are too dumb to appreciate its Genius

erm yeh ok

[edit]:


precisely... and clearly some people are alot easier to please

i believe his comments (and i know mine were) were directed at the campaign AI, nobody said anything about battle AI and or difficulty.

but since were nit picking, he prob outnumbered them, and outtech'd them AND he had a strong defensive position on a hill. sounds like the kind of battle where u expect to win with minimal casualties his cannons made most of their units route b4 they got to fighting his line infantry


im not defending CA or sayin the game is perfect. im saying the campaign AI is much improved.

clearly some people like seeing the glass half empty

cheers knoddy

[Yun Dog]

You can please me anytime you want baby.

By taking that quote out of your sig.

NEVER !!!!

I am Courland

[pevergreen]

[Claudio]

your post is a beautiful and well written expression of everything I think is gimped about this game

heres a different angle
they stupidly declared a war they were ill prepared for because of the CAIs border war diplomacy model - they didnt ally with each ohter before declaring war

having declared war they passively sit in their city - rather than some sort of combined alliance attack

The resulting milk run was due to AI predictable flank with cav manouver, General-seeking artillary, and generally gimped battle AI cause its units to flounder around like jellyfish

Then they sued for peace... and you accepted !! why? they were kaput .. do you want to have to replay this in a few turns when they senselessly declare war again.

Its not exactly the description of a challenging battle

I guess its ok if your satisfied playing out a game of unchallenging repetitive battles with the game end already a forgone conclusion

but that would bore me to tears

It was 1702, and Westphalia don't begin with a barracks capable of recruiting line infantry, so their army was composed of militia, pikemen, provincial cavalry and armed citizenry. They outnumbered me 2-1, but my troops were superior and in an excellent defensive position. Secondly, the battle AI is crap, I won't deny that at all, so even without the defensive position I would probably have won.

I accepted peace because I didn't want to own Westphalia, and with the alliance they will not attack me again. Westphalia would put me uncomfortably close to Prussia, and they can churn out stacks and stacks of line infantry that is far superior to mine.

After knocking out Westphalia, Wurttemburg took Alsace-Lorraine. I laid siege to it the next turn, and they sallied. I was able to set up spikes and those silly looking ramps that are supposed to be trenches or something since I was defending, but I started in a bad position. From the walls of Alsace-Lorraine, the land is a hill, so my soldiers had to be set up at a height disadvantage, and my artillery had nowhere to shoot from and didn't fire a shot through the entire battle.

Again Wurttemburg were using pikemen and militia, but they put up more of a fight than Westphalia, routing the center of my line and breaking through to attack my general and cavalry who were being held back. I managed to pull it together and win, but it was very close. I didn't offer Wurttemburg any peace deals, I knocked them out of the game so I could make an alliance and trade rights with Bavaria.

When Austria declared a war of succession against me, Westphalia and Bavaria joined on MY SIDE, and when Prussia declared war on me, Poland, already at war with them, offered me an alliance and even some technology, improved grenades.

I've done nothing but complain about the AI since the day this game was released, so when, as rare as it is, I see the AI acting somewhat competent, I ought to praise it, just as I bad-mouth it when it doesn't behave itself, don't you think? This post was in no way about the battle AI. I've already said in this post that it is abysmal on the battlefield and I just thought I should reiterate that incase you missed it the first time. I am speaking only of the campaign AI. One can impose house rules to make the battle AI more challenging, such as using no more than 11 units in a stack, which I frequently adhere to. I have also seen other fine examples of competent AI in 1.5. As Austria, when Poland allied with me against Prussia, and Russia allied with me against the Ottomans, and we all had a big old pillow fight. Also when I played as the Ottomans, Georgia attacked Armenia, I destroyed their armies, besieged their city and demanded money and protectorate status, to which they agreed.

[loony]

I am playing as Sweden and using DarthMod, so maybe it has to do something with my impression below.
I must say, however, the 1.5 has also improved the darthed AI significantly.

1. No one attacks me from turn 1. Neither do I. Meaning, the AI goes eco-crazy and lets me pay upkeep for my standing army.
2. Pretty hard to get alliances, the british refuse, french and spanish demand too much cash. Only the danish really want one, but they're dead in my plans. So i refuse.
3. Russia declares on me in 1704, after a while Poland joins them, danish too. A nice ganbang of allied forces. My army is bigger than any separate army of their, but hey, there are 3 of them.
4. Danish raid my economy, polish keep my troops defending the region above courland (modern Estonia) and the russians attack Petersburg. I am able to defend region capitals, not the econ, however.
5. A very nice battle with the danish
i have 4 line infantry, 2 militias, 2 cavalry, 1 fixed arty and a general. they have 6 militias 1 pike, 2 line, 3 cavalry a general and a fixed arty.
i have a good position, but I am the attacker. Unfortunately for them, my arty can hit them, while their cannot hit me. they advance in line, with cavalry behind, moving all the time to avoid atry.
their militias engage me at extreme range, their pikemen charge my the extreme left of my flank. pre-bayonet, pikemen murder line in melee, so i have to either double up, or run away. i move my cav further to the left to charge the flank of pikemen. they still move on and charge my line. 1 their cav charges mine.
my left flank is in utter chaos, no clear advantage, so i send another cav there, to improve the odds. Then their militias advance, and their 2 remaining cavs go flanking to my right flank. militias come to close range and a serious firefight begins.
i have 1 line in reserve so they go help avoid flanking on the right (or shoot some cav in the process).
then their 2 line charge my centre militias, their militias that had been in a firefight charge nearby line on the flank, their general charges the centre too. my 2 militias rout, my line on the right is charged by their cav. I manage to kill off the pikemen, but my centre is overrun. my general engaged, my right flank encircled and their 2 line attack my 1 line and 2 cavs on the left flank.
after a few more minutes and many casualties my army flees. here you go, a deserved defeat.
6. next turn i manage to beat the danish back to copenhagen, but my eco is in shambles.
7. the british declare and land. i beat them too. not a complicated battle as i have experienced line, while thei land lots of militia and cav . my arty maims them, line routs them and cav kills them.
8. a most satisfying siege of copenhagen, where the AI timely leaves the walls. uses arty to attack chokepoints where my troops are engaging armed citizens. sends cav OUTSIDE to engage my troops (infantry and arty only) on the back. no more bullshit "stay on the wall until it goes down" crap.
9. battle for petersburg, no fort, outnumbered by russians (2 cav and general each, they have 10 line, I have 6). their line engages mine 1 on 1 while their 3 extra line inf charge a single unit of mine. 1 stays in reserve. my units, overwhelmed rout. my cav kills 2 russian line, but then gets stuck in the masses of footsoldiers and is killed off. petersburg lost.


so far, very challenging and no more fooling around. no longer as easy to defeat the AI when being outnumbered 2:1. actually, it seems to perform extremely well in some cases. some stupid decisions sometimes too (like not hiding a general, obviuosly targeted by my arty), but generally a much more realistic experience. i love it.

every victory is bloody, hard thought and hard fought ()

[Lord of the Isles]

Someone should tell CA that the 'A' in AI doesn't stand for 'Absent'.