The Europa Barbarorum Wonders Project

[Macilrille]

The thing with the megalithic burials they are all over W Europe, Portugal, Brittany-France- UK- Holland- Germany- Denmark- S Sweden.

So they are not unique, just like I believe the Terpen SkullHQ suggests are not, nor are they IMO wonders like the ones around the Med.

[Silence Hunter]

I would like to propose two wonders from Lithuania. This region is quite empty and if any of those will be included it might provide some interesting read for a player wondering in these northern EBII lands.

1. Curonian Spit (Kuršių Nerija in original Lithuanian language, however it's more commonly known as Neringa, most likely the same name was used in EB timeframe)

Warning: very large images

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Warning: massive satellitte map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Curonian Spit is a 98 km long, 9774ha in size, thin, curved sand-dune spit that separates the Curonian Lagoon from the Baltic Sea.

Mythology

There are two stories explaining the creation of Curonian Spit.
1. Neringa, the daughter of Karvaitis grew up very big, like a giant. She was very nice to the local people - she used to go into sea and bring back lost ships during the storms. However one day Bangpūtys (ruthless double-faced sea wind and storms god) got mad and sent endless storms. Neringa decided to help the people by carrying the sand into sea and spilling it untill she formed a sand spit, dividing Curonian Lagoon (Kuršiu Marios) from Baltic Sea. Thankfull people named the spit after her - Neringa.
2. According to other legend Curonian Spit was formed by a Heraclis like little girl named Neringa when she was playing on the sea shore.

History

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First humans in the Curonian Spit could be dated by early Paleolith approximately 8000 B.C.
They were small groups of roaming hunters, which were following reindeers and elks. However, no signs of their presence have been found in the northern part of the Curonian Spit.

Regular settlements in the Curonian Spit appeared just in the beginning of Mesolithic Age about 4000 B.C. Warmer climate attracted people of Narva Culture to the spit. Deciduous woods, marshy lakes, shallow sea lagoons and channels were most suitable for fishing, hunting and gathering forest goods. People used pots and dishes, which they made of clay and mollusc shells. They raised such domestic animals as dogs and pigs, wove mats and started to process amber, which they collected.

The Pamarys or Marine Culture expanded across the Curonian Spit at the end of the middle stone age, i.e. 3000 B.C. It absorbed elements of Rope Ceramics from Central European and local Narva cultures. The Marine Culture gave birth to such western Baltic tribes as Prussians, Jatvingians and Curonians (Kuršiai). Some changes in occupations, day-to-day activities, family structure and world outlook appeared. Inhabitants of the Curonian Spit started to raise goats and use horses. For the very first time in the Curonian Spit, people cultivated land and started to grow barley and wheat. Salt extraction by evaporating seawater became a brand new occupation.
The Bronze Age (between 2000 and 500 B.C.) hasn't been much investigated in the Curonian Spit. The available information allows us to consider that landscape changes in the peninsula and the fall of temperature had a main impact on living conditions. About 1700 B.C. the sea flooded part of the Stone Age settlements. Humans moved to higher places. It is suggested that many of them deserted the Curonian Spit. Their occupations stayed the same. Solitary bronze articles like axes, speartips and pins weren't very commonly used, but rather showed the position in the social hierarchy. Archaeologists also noticed that the quality of ceramics worsened in the Bronze Age.

Single archaeology findings from the Iron Age (between 500 B.C. and 1300) said very little about this period in the northern part of the spit. It seems that humans deserted the peninsula completely. It could be the consequence of the Movement of Nations. People settled in the areas, which had more fertile soils and were more suitable for agriculture. The northern part of the Curonian Spit didn't satisfy their needs. However, only a detailed archaeological survey can give clearer picture of this blank page in the peninsula's history.

Curonian Spit was also a major part of Amber road (Gintaro kelias) trade route. Even today after the storm you can find pieces of amber on the seashore.

2. Romuva



Romuva is a central temple of ancient Baltic pagan religion, essentially it is an oak grove where chief priest Krivis and vaidilutes resided.

It is more a mythological object (as no archeological evidence was found), however it is closely related to ancient baltic pagan religion.

Romuva as depicted after XVI century account of Simon Granau:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You might wonder what this has to do with EB timeframe. It's just a speculation, but it is higly likely. Because of absence of written word and sparse archeological evidence of Baltic Iron age, presumptions must be made. Lithuanians were the last pagans in Europe formally christianized only in XIV century, however in practice pagan religion was dominant among the population untill about the middle of XVIII century. Taking this in mind it's possible to say that the religion of Balts in Iron Age did not differ much from paganism in middle ages.

If we agree on the above point, then the sacred places of worship should have been the same too. The most common of them were sacred oak groves. Oak was a sacred tree in Baltic mythology associated with head god Perkūnas (equivalent of Zeus). It was forbidden to cut the oaks down. These sacred groves were all over the country. Each had his own priest and vaidulutes (similar to roman vestals) guarding the sacred undistinguishable flame. However the central one of those groves was called Romuva and was located (this is mostly accepted speculation, there is also a mention of Romuva in Sembia (south of Curonian Spit) in the Simon Granau account (wiki link) near modern city of Trakai in Lithuania. The chief priest Krivis resided there. The place was wisited by the chiefs of the tribes and other upper ranking society members to get advice and blessings from the chief priest.

[ollicompolli]

Newgrange should be a wonder ( if it isn't already ).

Southern Poland has a large hill called "Kopiec Krakusa' - named after the legendary founder of Cracow. Its height is around 271 metres, and the base of the hill is flat. Part of this is hill is man made.
Archeological studies have shown that it was created around 500 B.C.
The mound has a solid wooden core, which is surrounded by turf and earth.
There's a theory that the place has Celtic roots (which is suggested by names around the area such as Galicja and Halicz). Later inhabitants of the area must have considered it to be a significant srtructure - archeological remains from as late as the 8th century C.E were found. There is a huge amount of kurhans in Poland, with this one being especially famous due to folk traditions. What makes it different from the kurhans in southern Russia and in the Ukraine is the Celtic ancestry.

This is how it looks like: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ec_Krakusa.jpg

[oudysseos]

Silence Hunter, that's excellent work! Thanks a lot!

[Vulgaris]

Newgrange should be a wonder ( if it isn't already ).

Southern Poland has a large hill called "Kopiec Krakusa' - named after the legendary founder of Cracow. Its height is around 271 metres, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ec_Krakusa.jpg

Wikipedia states that the hill lies at an altitude of 271, not that the hill itself is 271m tall :)
the hill itself is 16m tall; still quite high for a manmade hill, but a lot less impressive than one of almost 300 meters tall :)

[Macilrille]

There is a lot of mounds 16 m tal and more all over Europe. The Bronze Age mounds are often huge.

Like the neolithic burials, huge mounds are everywhere.

Instead of a wonder I would suggest them as a new Building, required for Gov I & II as mounds were used to mark out territories (in various ways) during prehistory. Possibly giving + XP.

[Mediterraneo]

Hello everybody.

I'd like to suggest the Cumaean Sibyl for its cultural meaning.



-------------------------------------------
Sibilla Cumana
The main divinating authority on Italian mainland, the Sibilla was a priestess of Apollo and Ecate that had her seat near the lake Averno, near Cuma, one of the accesses of the underworld.
The lake itself gave finally its name to the latin land of the dead, Avernus, was a scary place, without birds, killed by its tossic exalations.
The most important tribute to her divinating power are the Libri Sibillini, which she sold to Tarquinius Superbus for a stunning price, and that were one of the most important objects conserved in the Jupiter Capitolinus temple.
The Sibilla, seated in her Antro, deep underground, wrote her responses in exameters on palm leaves, which were then mixed by the many currents of the place, making it very difficult to correctly understand the content of her's predictions.
Its origin is literally lost in time, but was ancient enough not only not to be remebered, but to refer her cult as traditionally famous when Enea got to the site. Here, she gave him predictions and guided him to the underworld. Virgilio describes the woman as very old, but it is possibly a reference to the age of the charge, and not of the single persons who covered it in time. We still know the name of some of this women: Amaltea, Demofila ed Appenninica.
But there is a legend, which says that Apollo himself was once in love of a woman, and offered her anything she could desire in exchange of her becoming a priestess for him. She asked for the inmortality, but forgot to ask for eternal youth, and so she got older and older as the time passed by. She was consumed by the years, and got smaller and smaller, in the Apollo temple, until it was just her voice that remained. And then Apollo offered again a pact: he would have given her youthness back, if she accepted to be his. But she refused, to preserve her castity.
In the literature, Licofrone, Eraclito, Virgilio, Ovidio and Petronio give constance of her importance.
-------------------------------------------

Please, feel free to control and improve this, cause it was quickly done with the internet's help. But I feel that this gives an idea of the cultural significance of the place, and of the cult.

There are a lot of photos of the supposed "Antro della Sibilla" on the net, the most suggestive ones are the ones of the poligonal entering corridor, dark but recieving natural light from unexpected places, so I do not add one of them.

Reading things for this, i saw things about the Campi Flegrei, their volcanic activity and their thermal water, but I sholud really leave that for another day, or another person.

Bye!

[Feidhlimidh]

Hi, long time player, first time poster,

I would suggest that as much as i like to see irish sites in the game (tara etc), the Cuil Irra peninsula in sligo (which houses the largest megalithic cemetary/site anywhere [one of the tombs of 5,400 BC "Carrowmore" & the grave of the queen maeve overlooking it from the hill of the kings with other ancillary tombs) along with a huge causewayed enclosure. It has been extensively researched and is now recognised as the oldest tomb site in ireland and a site which was used right into the iron age as an important ceremonial and gathering place.


Several miles to the east lies the battle field of "Maige Tuiread" (ancient battle field) (possibly mythical) the story of which a certain author by by the name of tolkein borrowed heavily from!! (dont take my word for it)


Again just south of this (and all together forming a traingle of intense megalithic and ceremonially important landscapes) lies the Carrowkeel megaltihic site. these two monument clusters are larger than any other contemporoary sites. Carrowkeel again overlooks the battle field and is orientated to the Cuil Irra coplex.



Anyway, blablabla, if it was taken up as a complex etc for wonders theres plenty of info (scholarly articles, archaeological finds, maps plans, orientation to sun moon cycles etc. )

twas the burial plac of kings and the seat of the last one.

[Subotan]

Anyway, blablabla, if it was taken up as a complex etc for wonders theres plenty of info (scholarly articles, archaeological finds, maps plans, orientation to sun moon cycles etc. )

If you can find some, then the chances of it getting in are greatly increased.

[Casuir]

Carrowkeel and moytura are about 30 miles to the south of knocknarae/carrowmore, dont think they can be described as being part of the same complex. The dating to 5400bc is sketchy too.

[Macilrille]

In any case...

6. Be Original. Do not just copy and paste Wikipedia articles- if you care enough about a cool feature of the ancient world to suggest it to us, care enough to write your own description.

Writing "XXX is old I think, it would be cool to have it and it has lots of things written about it and Wiki and bla.-bla. etc" will not get your wonders included folks. the Team might as well not have launched the project but researched it all themselves.

Show you care, show you want the feature in, describe why it should be in "sell it" to the Team.

Edited to add Oh and despite the scolding (which goes for a third or more of the suggestions in the thread, not just this one), welcome to the Forum, pleased to meet you.

[oudysseos]

Feidhlimidh, that was a good first post- and a good suggestion that merits some research and development- so get to it! Find and/or scan some info and some pics and post it! If you're in Sligo, have a look around. If you're in Dublin, the ILAC Public Library in the shopping mall on Henry Street is actually quite good for this sort of thing. If you're not in Ireland, do your best.

[Feidhlimidh]

Hi all again, the whole "bla bla bla" thing was because i had to remove links due to it being my first post (for some reason?), and i was in a rush!


With regards to Casuirs' comments, i will just clarify myself, (they arent all 1 complex) they are 2 complex's joined by the run of the very navigable river unshin (rises from lough arrow at carrowkeel and flows to the southern bay of the cuil irra peninsula) and 1 well known battlefield (in myth & legend) and within the "landscape" there is an intense amount of megalithic activity. Carrowkeel is approx 14.5 miles south east of carrowmore (drive), and less as the crow flies, (but visible to each other due to elevation). I would have to say as far as dating evidence is concerned, the dates i mentioned are for certain monuments, there is no question of earlier settlement, as far as i know, just as to when large scale building started. Controversial? certainly.... Sketchy? depends on your point of view, anyway thats a discussion for a whole different forum!

i think stefan bergh is doing work on the time frame at the minute (primary use etc for some of the earliest sites).
http://www.nuigalway.ie/archaeology/...ing_index.html

This is just the monument listing:

National monuments listing: http://www.archaeology.ie/en/Nationa...oad,314,en.pdf
If you have arcview or some similar software you can download full datasets from archaeology.ie in shape file format.

This is a link to a really nice site covering a lot of info, photos, history, maps, historical drawings etc, pre- and post 19th centuary damage, for all three sites, carrowmore, queen maeves grave etc, carrowkeel, moytura etc: (also check out the glen passage way through the large natural limestone fault!!!) actually theres too much stuff on this website to start listing.

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/carrowmore/index.html

This is a link to a nice wee website with some ok photos and a nice google maps plot at the bottom of page 2. It also shows carrowkeel and moytura locations:

http://www.megalithicireland.com/Car...20Complex.html

This is a local newspaper extract detailing newer discoveries during a recent road construction, including a henge and neolithic to medieval find (uninterupted)

http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/story/?trs=cweygbeyid

Just a couple of vids (not great of a tiny bit of carrowmore and maeves grave) segments of the doc "Standing with stones"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FVrK...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l21GLJjJPm8


I would suggest if maybe the landscape is too much, then a focus on the Cuil Irra peninsula, but it could also be viewed as the pre-celtic to celtic worlds' answer to the "valley of the kings" & the "Hot Gates" all rolled into one wonder (How about that??). It is also worthy of note i guess, that the town at the landward side of the peninsula was strategically important right up until elizabethan period as the geographical bottle-neck between north and south (the northern clans fighting the elizabethan forces in the 9 years war - i.e. Cliffords defeat in the Curlews by O'Donnel a couple of miles further east, on his march to relieve the siege of sligo castle & Colooney garrisons) (the irish clans camped on carrowkeel in wait to ambush the invaders & Used it as their vantage point!) Sligo guards the narrow gap between the sea and ben bulben etc. its no wonder the iron age queen sits awatch over the area.

Anyway, i don't know how much you guys need, or if you need everything referenced etc, or in what format you require info, but anyway, there should be enough in the above to peruse through for consideration. Need anything else, gimme a bell!


Oh yes and here is the battle of moytura text translation link from UCC:

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300011/index.html

Theres some great quotes in this..... but i suppose, that'd be another thread also, check out sectios 119, 122, 127, 131 (Harsh, moreover, was the thunder that was there throughout the battle, the shouting of the warriors and the clashing of the shields, the flashing and whistling of the glaives and the ivory-hilted swords, the rattling and jingling of the quivers, the sound and winging of the darts and the javelins, and the crashing of the weapons!), 132, 133 (Then Nuada Silverhand and Macha daughter of Ernmass fell by Balor grandson of Nét. And Cassmael fell by Octriallach son of Indech. Lugh and Balor of the Piercing Eye met in the battle. An evil eye had Balor. That eye was never opened save only on a battle-field. Four men used to lift up the lid of the eye with a (polished) handle which passed through its lid. If an army looked at that eye, though they were many thousands in number they could not resist a few warriors. Hence had it that poisonous power. His father's druids were concocting charms. He came and looked over the window, and the fume of the concoction came under it, so that the poison of the concoction afterwards came on the eye that looked. Then he and Lugh meet.) (134-138)

[Casuir]

Feidhlimidh, my bad, i thought you were saying they're all part of the same complex. Anyways not saying they're unworthy of inclusion, from sligo myself so would be quite nice to see them in EB.

[Burebista per Sarmizegetuza]

I'd like to give you details about some wonders in Dacia or Getia ( they are the same)

There are lot's of wonders here in getia that should be put in the eyes.Because I live in "Getia"and I am a Daco-Roman I wish to share my knowledge of wonder in this play with you.

The first one is The Sfinx from Mt. Buceag in Romania.






History:

The Sfinx from Buceag Mountains is a megalit situated at 2.216 m altitude.

This wonder in named "The Sfinx" because of its shape of a human head(example: The egiptean Sfinx).

Iata ce scrie Strabon, in “Geografia” (VII, 3, 5): “Tot asa si acest munte a fost recunoscut drept sacru si astfel il numeau getii; numele lui, Kogaion, era la fel cu numele raului care curgea alaturi”.

As Strabon says in his book "The Geography" (VII, 3, 5)."This mountain was considered true sacred and so the Getai said;his name, Kogaion ,was with the name of evil who was purring beside him " ( not sure if its correct)


I will post more wonders latter hope 1 is good for my first post^^ bb

[oudysseos]

The Kogaion is already in EB1. A list is on the first post of this thread.

[Macilrille]

However, it is better to show some initiative than just posting a Wiki link. Welcome to the Forum.

[Feidhlimidh]

No probs Casuir, ah, another sligo man, theres hope for us then!!

[NikosMaximilian]

I saw someone proposed Thermopylae as a wonder and I was thinking about some specific mountain passes considered in that category, also since some capes are considered that way.

The faction that controls those passes could have some bonuses, in population growth, tradeable goods or even some bonus for troops trained in the region.

I'm thinking about

-Col de la Perche, Somport and Pas de la Casa, etc. in the Pyrenees
-San Bernardino, Brenner, Passo dell'Umbrail, Col de Tende, etc. in the Alps
-Iskar Gorge, Beklemeto (where the Trajan road was later built), Varbitsa, etc in the Balkans
-Cilician Gates in the Taurus Mountains
-Syrian Gates in the Nur Mountains
-Zigana in the Pontic Mountains
-Dukla in the Carpathians
-Bwlch-y-Ddeufaen in Wales

and so on...

[ardorious]

I looked up for Cappadocia but couldn't find anything about. It is a great trustic region known for its phenomenous history. Secret underground roads that is related with India and Tibet. Also known for fairy chimneys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocia

[Macilrille]

Time to repeat the start of this thread methinks.

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.


One of the wonderful things about Europa Barbarorum for RTW was, well, its Wonders.

In place of the very few and Graeco-Romanocentric "wonders" from vanilla Rome Total War, the EB team researched and implemented more than 70 historically accurate man-made and natural Unique Buildings of the ancient world, from the British Isles to India. Not only did they appear as buildings, with descriptions and bonuses; many of them were made into Battle Map models, so you could fight in the shade of Stonehenge or between the feet of the Sphinx at Giza.

Europa Barbarorum 2 will retain many if not most of these features, but the introduction of a unique Province Building for every region gives us the opportunity to expand this kind of content.

And this is where you, the community, can be part of the project. There are many wonderful features of the classical world, and the success of the Quotes Project has convinced us that our community of fans has a lot to contribute.

We are looking for two kinds of things.

1. "Wonders of the Ancient World" that could be made into Unique Buildings as in EB1.
2. Significant and interesting features of geography or culture that could be part of the Province Building descriptions.

Don't be overly concerned with categorizing your submissions. Ultimately the team will decide how best to use the material. It goes without saying that we are only interested in unique features that are contemporary to 3rd, 2nd and 1st centuries BCE: the Eiffel Tower is very unique and wonderful, but wouldn't be appropriate for Europa Barbarorum.



The Rules

1. No Spam will be tolerated. Spurious, "funny", or obscene posts will be deleted and the poster reported to global moderators if necessary. If the Team's time is wasted on policing juvenile spam, the project will be abandoned and the thread locked and/or deleted.

2. Look at the list of Wonders already in EB or already proposed. Posting something that is already there just wastes everyone's time. A search of the thread will help determine if your idea has already been posted.

3. The Team will decide which wonders will be included. There may be an upper limit to how many are possible, and overall balance will also be a consideration. Ultimately, we'll decide what goes in the release, although anyone can modify their own version if they wish.

4. Do Not Overdo It with Images. Please be considerate of other forum members who may have slower internet connexions or older computers: if you have a big image, use thumbnails or [spoil] tags to minimize its impact. Feel free to hyper-link to images on Wikipedia or other sites rather than posting them directly here.

5. Do the Research. Don't just post a name- we need some information about whatever it is you think should be included. Bear in mind that neolithic sites like Newgrange may well have disappeared by the Iron Age, only to be rediscovered by modern archaeology. We need some evidence that the site was known to the people of EB.

6. Be Original. Do not just copy and paste Wikipedia articles- if you care enough about a cool feature of the ancient world to suggest it to us, care enough to write your own description.


No offense intended to anyone, but it seems these instructions have to some extent been ignore, but then... I guess the people in question did not care enough to research and thus do not mind when their pet wonder is not included...

Consider that:
Research = high probability for inclusion
No Research = vanishing chance of inclusion

[Silence Hunter]

One more proposition for wonders in EBII from me. This time it's going to be wonders located in the lands of Scythians and Sarmatians.

1. Cucuteni-Trypillian culture settlement - Talianki

Cucuteni-Trypillian culture might be one of the most fascinating cultures of neolithic Europe. They were long gone by the time EB starts, but it seems that their legacy was preserved, as there were archeological founds in their settlements dating 3rd-4th centuries BC. So here they are for your consideration!

Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture

The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture is a late Neolithic archaeological culture which flourished between ca. 5500 BC and 2750 BC, from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions in modern-day Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine, encompassing an area of more than 35,000 km2 (13,500 square miles). At its peak the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture built the largest Neolithic settlements in Europe, some of which had populations of up to 15,000 inhabitants. One of the most notable aspects of this culture was that every 60 to 80 years the inhabitants of a settlement would burn their entire village. The reason for the burning of the settlements is a subject of debate among scholars; many of the settlements were reconstructed several times on top of earlier ones, preserving the shape and the orientation of the older buildings. One example of this, at the Poduri, Romania site, revealed a total of thirteen habitation levels that were constructed on top of each other over a period of many years.



Quite extensive wikipedia article on this culture, including a lot of sources and info.

those who live in New York can visit an exhibition on them: The Lost World of Old Europe

Talianki

Talianki was the location of the largest known settlement of the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, encompassing about 450 hectares (1112 acres), and laid out in an oval design of concentric rows of interconnected buildings, and measuring 3.5 kilometers (2.2 miles) long by 1.1 kilometers (0.7 miles) wide. Dating from the middle of the 4th Millenium to the 3rd Millenium BC, and at its height having over 15,000 inhabitants, this settlement's size was staggering, making it one of the largest in the world during the time it flourished, as well as the largest settlement in Neolithic Europe.



Location in Wiki article.

Why can it be considered as a wonder for EB?

The other Cucuteni-Trypillian village of Baiceni contained artifacts of Geto-Dacians, dating slightly before EB start date. Presumably these settlements might have been still in use, or used for some other purpose. The founds from Baiceni village contain following artifacts:

The first one was a golden thesaurus from the beginning of the 4th b.C. discovered by chance in Baiceni village, Cucuteni comunna, at the end of the 50s. It had 70 complete pieces and fragments made of 18 and 24 K gold weighing more than 2 kg.

The most important piece is a helmet worked with the cold hammering technique and made of 24 k gold. Its shape is longish and it has a rectangular opening for the face, a frontal, and protection for the cheeks and the nape of the neck. On the frontal part there were made two eyes with brows and accolades using the repousse technique. The parts for the cheeks and the nape were also decorated. The right cheek had a dressed man sitting on a throne in an apotheotic posture, holding a cup in the right hand and a ryton in the other. On the left cheek there were two snakes with bird heads, symmetrically disposed, and between them there was an ox head with big horns. On the nape part there were two-winged horses standing back to back. The helmet, reminding of these of the sarazine kings, was for parades just like the other helmets found at Agighiol, Poiana-Cotofenesti or Portile de Fier.



Another valuable piece was a bracelet made of a twisted cylindered bar, having at the ends two small horse heads with horns symmetrically arched towards the nostrils and having a filigree rosette fixed on a plate on the forehead.



The article can be found here.


2. Kamyana Mohyla

This wonder is mysterious to modern-day scholars, but it likely was as mysterious to the visitors of this place in 3rd century BC as it is to us now.

Kamyana Mohyla is a site encompassing a group of isolated blocks of sandstone, up to twelve meters in height, scattered around an area of some 3,000 square meters. What makes Kamyana Mohyla special is that it is so old and it is not just stones, but carved out statues standing here. The Kamyana Mohyla carvings are likely the oldest of their kind in the world. Petroglyphs found on the rocks indicate they could be over 9,000 years old.



The shape of this sand hill is similar to that of kurgans that dot the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Valentin Danylenko claimed to have discovered thirty caves with petroglyph inscriptions which he dated to the 20th century B.C. to the 17th century A.D. Danylenko resumed his work on the site after World War II and claimed to have discovered thirteen additional caves with petroglyphs. Petroglyphs are found inside the caves and grottoes of Kamenna Mohyla, many of them still filled up with sand. No adequate protection from the elements has been provided to this day. No traces of ancient human settlement have been discovered in the vicinity, leading many scholars to believe that the hill served as a remote sanctuary. Faint traces of red paint remain on parts of the surface. Scholars have been unable to agree whether the petroglyphs date from Mesolithic or Neolithic. The latter dating is more popular, although the presumed depiction of a mammoth in one of the caves seems to favour the former date.





Why should it be included? It was there during the EB timeframe. It should have been a mysterious site for any visitors and might have been actually used for some kind of religious purpose. No one will know for sure untill further reasearch is done, but it seems a fascinating site for me.

Wiki article. Location in this article. Some more pictures.


3. Kul-Oba

There were many burial mounds across the Europe. Kurgan is the name associated with such mounds scattered across Scythian steppe. Some of them contained extremely rich treasures. Kul-Oba is one of those.

What's interesting about Kul-Oba is the merger of Greek and Scythian influences.

Kul-Oba was the first Scythian royal barrow to be excavated in modern times. Uncovered in 1830, the stone tomb yielded a wealth of precious artefacts which drew considerable public interest to Scythian world. Of particular interest is an intricately granulated earring with two Nike figurines, now in the Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg. The tomb was built around 400 to 350 BC, likely by a team of Greek masons from Panticapaeum. Its plan is almost square, measuring 4.6 by 4.2 meters. The stepped vault stands 5.3 meters high. The timber ceiling seems to have been designed to imitate a Scythian wooden tent; it is decorated by a canopy with gold plaques.

Warning: the images are large

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And famous vanilla Scythian faction icon:


Wiki article.

I think it would be nice to include one of the Kurgans as a building or something. To use as an example of steppe burial rituals and amounts of treasure buried together with nobles.

[oudysseos]

Silence Hunter, Macirille, and others- some of these suggestions are very good indeed. I don't want ye to think that this is a dead thread- but the wonders project is a long term one and I don't have a lot of extra time right now.

If anyone is serious about helping EB, take this a step further without me holding your hand: on the first post of this thread, at the bottom, you can find the actual text of the EB1 wonders. Using that for a guide, write up descriptions for your proposals: at a minimum 100 words, a maximum of say 500. This must be mostly original text: you can't cut-and-paste from other sources (you can of course rewrite and paraphrase). A good picture would be good, and if you can have a stab at a name in the original language.

If you really want to go all out, dig into your EB1 files and try to put new Wonders into your build (always copy your data folder before changing anything). If you can get new wonders going in EB1, there could be a job with your name on it. Don't ask me how- you're gonna have to teach yourself. There are good tutorials on the Org and at TWC.

I'll try to keep a better eye on this thread.

[Famine0]

Alright, here goes my proposal. Now I'm not a historian so please excuse any mistakes I made, I'm especially not sure about the 'Early Helladic' and 'Late Bronze Age' dates. I tried to make rough estimates using wikipedia. I used several sites for the information.
The pictures are fairly large:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Sanctuary of Asklepieos and theater at Epidaurus

The cult and sanctuary of Asklepieos at Epidaurus – believed to be the birthplace of Asklepieos the healer and the son of Apollo – started growing as early as the 6th century BC.
Said to be the largest healing center of Greece’s Classical period it still enjoyed alot of fame during the Hellenistic period. The sanctuary consisted of several buildings including a big sleeping hall (called an enkoimitiria), a guest house (katagogeion) with 160 guestrooms, a tholos, banqueting hall (hestiatoreion), gymnasium, a temple dedicated to Asklepieos built by Theodotos around 380 BC, and smaller shrines dedicated to other gods: Artemis, Themis and Aphrodite. The Tholos, built by Polykleitos the Younger around 360 BC, is actually quite famous because of its elaborately detailed interior Corinthian columns, which would influence alot of later columns from that style. Pausanias (2nd century AD), Lydian traveler and geographer, tells us in his Description of Greece that the temple contained a statue of Asklepieos. The statue was made of gold and ivory and represented Asklepieos sitting on a throne, with a staff in his left hand, his right hand resting on a snake and a dog sitting next to him. Depicted on the throne were Bellerophon killing the Chimera and Persues striking Medusa’s head off.
On a hilltop south-east of the sanctuary was an early helladic settlement (2800 BC- 2100 BC), and later, near it a relatively smaller shrine dedicated to Apollo where sacrifices were made during the late Bronze Age (1550 BC- 1200 BC). This shrine was expanded during the 4th century BC and 2nd century AD.

The theater of Epidaurus is famous for its beautiful location, exceptional acoustics and overall advanced design. The circular performance space known as the orchestra has a diameter of 65 feet. Behind the orchestra was the scene (skéne), used as a backdrop and as an area were the actors could change costumes. The skéne was sometimes built out of stone but in Epidaurus it was made of wood and as such is not preserved today. In Greek theaters the landscape behind the scene was very important and, following in this tradition, the theater of Epidaurus was purposely built amidst a lush landscape. Polykleitos used limestone seats to amplify high-frequency sounds but block out low-frequency sounds. It is said that when you light a match at the stage it can be heard even at the top rows. Originally the theater had 34 rows housing up to 6500 people, but after an additional 21 rows were added by the Romans the theater could house up to 12000 people.

The sanctuary and its theater flourished during the Classical and Hellenistic period until it was looted by Sulla in 87 BC and Cilician pirates in 67 BC, and even though the Goths raided it in 395 AD the sanctuary was still known in the 5th century AD.
Today plays are still being held at the theater, but the sanctuary of Asklepieos has to be visited with a little imagination as ruins are all that remain.

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The text is exactly 500 words long. Unfortunatly since the sanctuary is a ruin now I couldnt find any decent pictures depicting the sanctuary in the EB timeframe.

[athanaric]

The text is exactly 500 words long. Unfortunatly since the sanctuary is a ruin now I couldnt find any decent pictures depicting the sanctuary in the EB timeframe.

Good one. Hopefully Epidauros will be in.

[jirisys]

Proposed Wonder: Aqua Appia



The first Roman aqueduct, constructed in 312 B.C. by Appius Claudius Caecus (the same censor that built the Via Appia) and C. Plautius. The intake is described by Frontinus as being in agro Lucullano, 780 paces to the left of the via Praenestina, between the seventh and the eighth miles, but the springs have never been satisfactorily identified.

The supply was 1825 quinariae, or 75,537 cubic metres in 24 hours. The channel was almost entirely subterranean, 11,190 paces in length, to the Salinae of which only 60 paces near the porta Capena were carried on substructions and on arches.

Near Spes Vetus it was joined ad Gemellos by a branch named Augusta because constructed by Augustus, the springs of which were 980 paces to the left of the sixth mile of the via Praenestina, near the via Collatina; the channel of this branch was 6380 paces long. From the porta Capena the aqueduct ran underground, and remains of its channel were found in 1677 and in 1887 between the Aventinus minor and the Aventinus maior on the south-east of the Via di Porta S. Paolo.

The Aqua Appia flowed for 16.4 km into the city of Rome through the Porta Maggiore, Passing under the Aventine, it ended at the bottom of the clivus Publicius and emptied into the Forum Boarium near the porta Trigemina.

In level it was the lowest of all the aqueducts. Nearly all of its length was underground, which was necessary because of the relative heights of its source and destination, and afforded it protection from attackers during the Samnite Wars that were underway during its construction. It dropped only 10 m over its entire length, making it a remarkable engineering achievement for its day. It was repaired by Q. Marcius Rex in 144‑140 B.C., and by Augustus in 11‑4 B.C.

As most buildings in Rome, there is little remain of this besides archeological evidence, but historians have recreated it into a 3D model by descriptions and roman engineering at the time

If anyone should carefully calculate the abundance of waters in Rome’s public fountains, baths, pools, open canals, homes, gardens, and suburban estates, or the miles of delivery channels, the tall arcades, the tunnels under mountains and bridges across valleys, he would admit that there is nothing on earth more worthy of our wonder.
-Pliny the Elder, Encyclopedia 36.123

Hope it gets there!

I don't have a map to point it out, so please, if any of you have a more advanced knowledge of the location of this aqueduct, please post so. Thank you

~Jirisys (on his first wonder proposal)

[Cimon]

Proposal: Land of the Giants*

Possible regions (any or all): North Syria/Antioch, Phlagraean Fields (Italy), and Leuca (Italy)

The Giants of Greek mythology were believed to have been a group of creatures formed when the blood fell to the earth following the castration of Heaven. When the blood touched the earth, the giants sprang up in full armour, ready to fight. They later tried to assault the gods on Mount Olympus, but were defeated and killed.

First possibility: North Syria/Antioch
Beginning at least as far back as the Neo-Hittites, this area was thought to have been ruled over by giants in the past. Findings of large bones in the area, for which the ancients did not have a scientific answer, seemed to suggest the presence of the giants from several cultures' mythology. These large bones were probably the bones of prehistoric animals, as well as teeth from hippos. One of the teeth ended up in a shrine at Tell Sukas, which the Greeks visited beginning in the 6th century BC. In addition, patches of burning earth (probably combustible coal), seemed to suggest the presence of the giants. Seleucus was believed to have found the bodies of giants who had once lived in the area where Antioch was later founded, on the plain of Unqi. In the 160s AD, an large skeleton was discovered when the river course either changed, or was diverted. The residents of the area sent the bones to the oracle of Apollo at Claros, who told them that the skeleton belonged to the Giant Orontes. The idea that Giants had once ruled near Antioch continued for centuries, such that the Byzantine chroncler John Malalas (circa 530AD) wrote, "Two miles from Antioch there is a place which has the bodies of men stoned by the wrath of the gods. Even now, they call them 'Giants.' One Pagras lived in this land and was a Giant. He was thunderbolted by fire. So it is clear that the people of Antioch in Syria live in the land of the Giants."

Second possibility: Phlagraean Fields (Italy)
Just inland from the northern end of the Bay of Naples, the discovery of giant bones and the scorched, sulfuric ground suggested to the ancients that this was where the cosmic showdown between the gods and the giants took place. Philostratus, writing in the early third century AD but drawing on earlier sources, said that the Neapolitans made a "wonder" out of the bones of Alcyoneus, who was the oldest of the giants and a captain in the war against the gods. Strabo wrote that the area had "a foul smell, full of sulphur and fire and hot springs," which he said were the "wounds of teh thunderbolted Giants which pour out streams of fire and water." And according to Dio Cassius, when Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD, "there were those who thought that the Giants were rising to revolt, for many of their forms were visible in the smoke and besides, a sound a trumpets could be heard." Bones continued to be discovered in this area up into more recent times, such that when Vesuvius erupted again in 1538, stories of the Giants were again raised.

(This area could be connected with Typhon on Ischia and/or under Etna if desired).

Third possibility: Leuca (Italy)
According to Strabo, after the battle, the surviving Giants were said to have taken refuge at the small town of Leuca on the tip of Italy's heel. The area was again "foul-smelling" (i.e. sulfur) from the "ichor" of the Giants' bodies. Nearby is a so-called "Cave of the Giants," which contains deposits of prehistoric bones.


*All information taken from Travelling Heroes In the Epic Age of Homer by Robin Lane Fox

[echolot]

hi guys!

I know that it is not frowened upon to link Wikipedia articles, but because of my bad english it is the only way to describe the suggestions. So I hope you understand this.

1. Mohenjo-daro




Mohenjo-daro (lit. Mound of the Dead, Sindhi: موئن جو دڙو/मूअनि जो दड़ो [muˑənⁱ ʥoˑ d̪əɽoˑ]) was one of the largest city-settlements of the Indus Valley Civilization of south Asia situated in the province of Sindh, Pakistan. Built around 2600 BCE, the city was one of the early urban settlements in the world, existing at the same time as the civilizations of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Crete. The archaeological ruins of the city are designated a UNESCO World Heritage Site. It is sometimes referred to as "An Ancient Indus Valley Metropolis"

Mohenjo-daro in ancient times was most likely one of the administrative centers of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization. [6] It was the most developed and advanced city in South Asia, and perhaps the world, during its peak. The planning and engineering showed the importance of the city to the people of the Indus valley.[7]

The Indus Valley Civilization (c. 3300–1700 BC, flowered 2600–1900 BC), abbreviated IVC, was an ancient riverine civilization that flourished in the Indus river valley in ancient India (now Pakistan and the present north-west India). Another name for this civilization is the "Harappan Civilization."

The Indus culture blossomed over the centuries and gave rise to the Indus Valley Civilization around 3000 BCE. The civilization spanned much of what is now Pakistan and North India, but suddenly went into decline around 1900 BCE. Indus Civilization settlements spread as far south as the Arabian Sea coast of India in Gujarat, as far west as the Iranian border, with an outpost in Bactria. Among the settlements were the major urban centers of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, as well as Lothal.

The Mohenjo-daro ruins were one of the major centres of this ancient society. At its peak, some archaeologists opine that the Indus Civilization may have had a population of well over five million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohenjo-daro
http://www.mohenjodaro.net/mohenjodaroessay.html
http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html (lot of pictures)


2. Arkaim



Arkaim (Russian: Аркаим) is an archaeological site situated in the Southern Urals steppe, 8.2 kilometres (5.1 mi) north-to-northwest of Amurskiy, and 2.3 km (1.4 mi) south-to-southeast of Alexandronvskiy, two villages in the Chelyabinsk Oblast, Russia, just to the north from the Kazakhstani border.

The site is generally dated to the 17th century BC. Earlier dates, up to the 20th century BC, have been proposed. It was a settlement of the Sintashta-Petrovka culture.

There are 4 entrances into the settlement through the outer and inner wall with the main entrance to the west. The dwellings were between 110–180 m2 (1,200–1,900 sq ft) in area. The outer ring of dwellings number 39 or 40, with entrances to a circular street in the middle of the settlement. The inner ring of dwellings number 27, arranged along the inner wall, with doors to the central square of 25 by 27 m (82 by 89 ft). The central street was drained by a covered channel. Zdanovich estimates that approximately 1500 to 2500 people could have lived in the settlement.

Surrounding Arkaim's walls, were arable fields, 130–140 m by 45 m (430–460 ft by 150 ft), irrigated by a system of canals and ditches. Remains of millet and barley seeds were found.

The 17th century date suggests that the settlement was about co-eval to, or just post-dating, the Indo-Aryan migration into South Asia and Mesopotamia (the Gandhara grave culture appearing in the Northern Pakistan from ca. 1600 BC, the Indo-European Mitanni rulers reached Anatolia before 1500 BC, both roughly 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi) removed from the Sintashta-Petrovka area), and that it was either an early Iranian culture, or an unknown branch of Indo-Iranian that did not survive into historical times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/001...23/112397e.pdf


3. Knossos Palace



Knossos Palace, is the largest Bronze Age archaeological site on Crete and probably the ceremonial and political centre of the Minoan civilization and culture. The palace appears as a maze of workrooms, living spaces, and store rooms close to a central square. Detailed images of Cretan life in the late Bronze Age are provided by images on the walls of this palace.
The great palace was built gradually between 1700 and 1400 BC, with periodic rebuildings after destruction. Structures preceded it on Kephala hill. The features currently most visible date mainly to the last period of habitation, which Evans termed Late Minoan. The palace has an interesting layout[3] - the original plan can no longer be seen because of the subsequent modifications. The 1300 rooms are connected with corridors of varying sizes and direction, which is different than other palaces of the time period which connected the rooms via several main hallways. The 6 acres (24,000 m2) of the palace included a theatre, a main entrance on each of its four cardinal faces, and extensive storerooms (also called magazines). The storerooms contained pithoi (large clay vases) that held oil, grains, dried fish, beans, and olives. Many of the items were created at the palace itself, which had grain mills, oil presses, and wine presses. Beneath the pithoi were stone holes used to store more valuable objects, such as gold. The palace used advanced architectural techniques: for example, part of it was built up to five storeys high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos
http://www.ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html
http://www.interkriti.org/visits/knosos.htm

[kaptainplanet]

please kill me as i will just post the wiki article. I am a scum i know it, i am so sorry.
But this is something classical people had knowledge of, since pausanias talks about it( not that I am a scum, the Cyclopean Walls of Mycinai that I propose for a Wonder)
and thats it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopean_masonry

[Basilisco]

The Pharos of Brigantia (UNESCO WORLD HERITAGE)

Through the millennia many mythical stories of its origin have been told. According to a myth that blends Celtic and Greco-Roman elements, the hero Hercules slew the giant tyrant Geryon after three days and three nights of continuous battle. Hercules then—in a Celtic gesture— buried the head of Geryon with his weapons and ordered that a city be built on the site. The lighthouse atop a skull and crossbones representing the buried head of Hercules’ slain enemy appears in the coat-of-arms of the city of Corunna.

Another legend embodied in the 11th-century compilation Lebor Gabala Erren— the "Book of Invasions"— King Breogán, the founding father of the Galician Celtic nation, constructed here a massive tower of such a grand height that his sons could see a distant green shore from its top. The glimpse of that distant green land lured them to sail north to Ireland. A colossal statue of Breogán has been erected near the Tower.

The tower is thought to had been originally a simpler structure in pre-roman times, part of a chain of fire signals to guide merchant ships through the "Costa da Morte" (Coast of the Death), as this was a necessary route to reach the European Atlantic Coast from the Mediterranean, thus making Gallaecia a main trade center of the Atlantic since the bronze age, but also the most dangerous step!





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules