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Thread: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

  1. #121
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    En. Cute Wolf:

    a) Faction represent royal family

    Hmm I already noticed and very very understand because you all have stated that in your previous posts in this forum and elsewhere, and I have no complain about that. Although in history, when the last Sultan of Melaka pass away, his 2 sons founded 2 separated successor kingdoms of Johor and Perak, in this game, it will not separate and still be named Melaka. Even in this game, if the kingdom of Melaka reduced and only own Patani, it still called Melaka....

    b) Faction colour

    It is up to you to use what colour for what faction. It is your full authorization...

    c) City list

    How about the city list? It is too much? I know about the maximum region limit in RTW... If you think it is too much, we can discuss and use only the very very important cities... Some of the cities were stated in Sejarah Melayu and Hikayat Hang Tuah, some of them stated in Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa (especially the cities in Kedah and Kelantan), some of them existed as big cities during the Kingdom of Srivijaya (the real Srivijaya of course, not Srivijaya represent in this game ), some of them started as fishing villages, then only became important after the foundation of Perak and Johor...

    Anyway, there were many settlement recorded in history, some of them were villages, some were cities and some were only defensive forts... especially in Johor, along the river bank of Sungai Johor... All the settlements there ever became Johor capital because the capital have been moved many times because of Portuguese attack...

    Kingdom of Perak also have may capitals along Perak River because they moved their capital regularly (actually not they... it is our capital...because I am from Perak and Perak is my hometown )

    At that time, at Kelantan, there were many small small kingdoms with their own capital, and their kingdoms was no larger than a Kabupaten...

    by the way, the city numbers in peninsular Malaysia represented how populated the region are at that time, comparable to the Java and Sumatera...

    Bla bla bla...anyway, just ignore my babbling....


    PS: En. Cute Wolf...buat apa di LAB? saya di LAB mengkulturkan sel....
    PS: En. Plutoboyz...cantik sekali model konsepnya di forumation

    Wah Wah hebatnya gunungnya ada salji
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-23-2010 at 08:19.

  2. #122
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by wlesmana View Post
    Guys, can you post pictures of weapon references so I can start modeling them. Seems like there's still a lot of debate to be done about the soldier models so weapon models are easier and more precise. The only reason I modeled the Melayu Militia so early is because they look like stereo-typical Maduran satay vendors so easy to imagine what they should look like.
    I have started a thread at forumotion. its also include unit concept

    http://nu3tara.forumotion.net/the-de...erence-t23.htm
    Last edited by plutoboyz; 04-23-2010 at 08:24. Reason: adding link

  3. #123
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    I have some questions:

    a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

    b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

    c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?

  4. #124
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    I have some questions:

    a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

    b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

    c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?
    a) a pike is a an extremely long weapon, varying considerably in size, from 3 to 6 metres (10 to over 20 feet) long. It had a wooden shaft with an iron or steel spearhead affixed.

    a spear a pole weapon consisting of a shaft, usually of wood, with a sharpened head. The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears, or it may be of another material fastened to the shaft, such as obsidian, iron or bronze. The most common design is of a metal spearhead, shaped like a triangle or a leaf. A spear's lenght is usually from 3 up to 8 feet (if used overarm) and to 16 feet (if used underarm)

    b) Two handed means it's a weapon you need to use with both hands, a double wielding soldier is a troop with a weapon in each hand

    c) i don't know

    ~Jirisys (they're two handed phalanxes... WHAT! THEY HAVE A SPEAR IN EACH HAND!!!)
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  5. #125
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    I have some questions:

    a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

    b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

    c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?
    a. pike is a long spear. tombak is standard spear. lembing is javelin. you know lempar lembing or rejam lembing?
    b. 2 handed mean held by two hand (longsword or greatsword). dual wield mean you have two weapon held by each hand
    c. I don't know. just post your sugestion here or in our forum.

  6. #126
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Thanks...

    That's make a clear explanation and helping me matching the unit name with the one stated in Malay text....

    In Hikayat Hang Tuah the one that throwed is seligi

    "Maka kata Hang Jebat sambil menangkiskan seligi (javelin) dan anak damak (dart) seperti hujan datangnya....

    It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

    From my understanding, lembing is the one that thrown.

    Hmmm. what about lance?



    Kepada Jirisys: Hampeh mangkuk ayun ni kata kat aku.......
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-25-2010 at 06:00.

  7. #127
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    note : I just put in your input for the unit name, and made several changes to Melayu culture Infantry and cav units so please do some checking there

    Melayu Watchmen (spears) = Orang Berkawal
    Melayu City Guards (archer-shortswords) = Pengawal Kota
    Acehnese Swordsmen (swords) = Laskar Aceh
    Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
    Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
    Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
    Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-shortswords) = Pertikaman
    Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
    Acehnese Heavy Infantry (shortswords) = Serdadu Pedeung
    Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
    Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
    Half-Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
    Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
    Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
    Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-axes) = Sahabat Istana

    Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)
    Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords)
    Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)
    Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
    Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
    Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)


    Note that some of them are shared units with South Sumateran Culture... I allready do the rebalancing by doing the equation again...

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  8. #128
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....
    you know, sometimes in reality. soldier throw their spears. just to kill enemy instantly.

  9. #129
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Thanks Mr. Cute Wolf. Here my suggestion:

    a) Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
    is the usage of the word penjurit here parallel with the units that used word prajurit in Jawa and Pajajaran? If it’s parallel, than ok, we have some connection here…

    b) Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
    Melayu shock trooper used double sword, how about change it to Pendekar?

    c) Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
    Hulubalang

    d) Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
    Well, Pengawitan is the name for Melakan infantry equipped with special spear stated in hikayat Hang Tuah. (tombak pengawitan bersampak emas)...

    e) Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
    You said that in Babad Tanah Jawi, it was called Bala Kauman?

    f) Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
    The word serdadu have connotation with Portuguese and scimitars were the influence from middle-east....maybe just used Pemanah or Laskar Pemanah, because the usage of scimitars here.

    g) Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
    I am not sure, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were stated the word perapit, and in other chapter, penjajap

    h) Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
    Bentara

    i) Aiyyah…..so many elephant….Anyway, for the elephant, I think only Melakan Sultan and faction heir and sometimes others royal family members (not all) used elephant, that was: Melayu Royal War Elephants and it was called Gajah Kenaikan.

    Some of the royal members used horse, while the others used Palanquin.ie Paduka Tuan (Melakan Bendahara during reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah) fight Portuguese on the Palanquin, also Sultan Mahmad Syah II (last Johore Sultan from Melakan Sultan lineage) also has been kill on Palanquin. I don't think the commoners used elephant.

    j) Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) - Pegawai dan Pertuanan. I think this unit can be made as recruitable general unit

    k) For Acheh, the nobles were called Ulèë Balang. Which unit suited them? Acheh Royal Horsemen or Acehnese Honorary Guards?
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-25-2010 at 17:54.

  10. #130
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    Thanks Mr. Cute Wolf. Here my suggestion:

    a) Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
    is the usage of the word penjurit here parallel with the units that used word prajurit in Jawa and Pajajaran? If it’s parallel, than ok, we have some connection here…
    true, so they are verivied

    b) Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
    Melayu shock trooper used double sword, how about change it to Pendekar?
    Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).

    c) Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
    Hulubalang

    d) Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
    Well, Pengawitan is the name for Melakan infantry equipped with special spear stated in hikayat Hang Tuah. (tombak pengawitan bersampak emas)...
    And in this matter, I must say that I'll stick with tentara anyway, because that was how the Sumateran sea warriors are described. And with Halberdiers, maybe I'll use Pangawitan, as you suggested...

    e) Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
    You said that in Babad Tanah Jawi, it was called Bala Kauman?
    The Bala Kauman... was the Half arab swordsmen, they are quite different unit since they are only wearing a swords, the "Ottoman Elite Infantry" are Aceh and Melayu's immitation for Ottoman Janissary... and I think that should be that way.... and because "Kauman means another thing" I'll use Arab instead...

    f) Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
    The word serdadu have connotation with Portuguese and scimitars were the influence from middle-east....maybe just used Pemanah or Laskar Pemanah, because the usage of scimitars here.
    Thanks... verivied

    g) Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
    I am not sure, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were stated the word perapit, and in other chapter, penjajap
    So we'll stick to the Hulubalang then...

    h) Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
    Bentara

    i) Aiyyah…..so many elephant….Anyway, for the elephant, I think only Melakan Sultan and faction heir and sometimes others royal family members (not all) used elephant, that was: Melayu Royal War Elephants and it was called Gajah Kenaikan.
    Verivied

    Some of the royal members used horse, while the others used Palanquin.ie Paduka Tuan (Melakan Bendahara during reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah) fight Portuguese on the Palanquin, also Sultan Mahmad Syah II (last Johore Sultan from Melakan Sultan lineage) also has been kill on Palanquin. I don't think the commoners used elephant.

    j) Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) - Pegawai dan Pertuanan. I think this unit can be made as recruitable general unit

    k) For Acheh, the nobles were called Ulèë Balang. Which unit suited them? Acheh Royal Horsemen or Acehnese Honorary Guards?
    Too bad, the engines can't help in multiple bodyguard units... Maybe for that reason, I'll made recruitable bodyguards on cavalry available... but the default BG unit will be the Elephants....
    The noble cavalry will have their BG version maybe....

    and acehnese Honorary guards will go as "Sahabat Istana" , because Ulee Balang represent broader nobility, and those "Sahabat Istana" are actually palace guardsmen....

    Oh yeah, I forgot to include those unit:
    - Peusangan Askar / Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (wielding large two handed sword)
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 04-25-2010 at 18:43.

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  11. #131
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    ok, prepare for mind boggling post! Hopefully this is final. because I don't found anything to add anymore


    Local name(English name)[weapon]

    wang tani (Civilian) [golok]

    Wado (Sundanese watchmen) [golok]
    Pajurit Tumbak (Sundanese Spearmen) [underarm spear]
    Pajurit Pamanah (Sundanese Archer) [bamboo bow]
    Pajurit Golok (Sundanese Shocktrooper) [golok]
    Pajurit Pĕdang (Sundanese Swordsman)[Sword]

    Jawara (Sundanese Heavy shocktrooper) [golok]
    Bayangkara (Sundanese Elite Watchmen) [underarm spear+javelin]
    Pamanah (Sundanese Elite Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
    Pamarang (Sundanese Elite Swordsmen) [sword]
    *Pajurit Angklung (Sundanese Music Corps)[WAR MUSIC!] *don't laugh,its historical!*

    Balamati Pamanah (Sundanese Royal Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
    Balamati Pamarang (Sundanese Royal Swordsman) [swords]
    Balamati Kujang Jago (Sundanese Royal Bladesman) [kujang jago]
    Balamati Tumpak Kuda (Sundanese Royal Cavalry) [javelin+spear]
    Kasatrya Pamanah Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Archer)[Bamboo war bow+dual wield golok]
    Kasatrya Pamarang Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsman)[dual wield sword]
    Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cavalry)[kujang pangarak+ dual wield sword]

    Pamuk (Sundanese Hero)[longsword+bamboo warbow]
    Kareta Kuda (Sundanese Chariot)[one man with bamboo warbow, one man with spear, one driver]
    #Pajurit Gajah Siliwangi (Sundanese Elephant Bodyguard) [spear+javelin]

    regional:
    Bandrang Keraton(Cirebonan Spearmen)[two handed spear]
    Pamanah Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosuwan elite Archer)[bamboo warbow]
    Pasukan Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan elite spearmen)[twohanded spear]
    Pamarang Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan Elite Swordsman)[poisoned golok]
    Jawara Ciomas (Ciomas Fighter)[poisoned golok]
    Pajurit Kuda Windu (Windu Cavalry) [spear+javelin]
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bonus: Baladia Onom Galuh(Betrayer Army) [anything] *its like Dead man of Dunnharrow*


    PS:I know that Gerak Cepat sound silly(myself always laugh when hear it) but its historical. some say it is the special forces that open Pajajaran mighty gate.
    PS:Banten golok was more lethal than Priangan Golok and Pesisir Golok, because it use poison during making process.
    PS:# Bodyguard unit
    PS(again): who's Ikazz?
    PS(I think to many PS here): Pajajaran unit at forumotion haven't updated.
    Last edited by plutoboyz; 04-25-2010 at 19:31.

  12. #132
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post

    Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).
    Oh I see. In Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were mention the word Hamba Tebusan, Hamba Sahaya, Hamba Raja and Budak Raja to describe the slave.

    Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
    Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
    Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)
    I have found that in the letter of Acheh's Sultan Iskandar Muda to England's King James I stated that His Majesty has very ornamented elephants and hundreds of war elephant (gajah perang):

    ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan gajah berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus-ratus gajah daripada gajah perang yang berbeluhan besi dan behalap gading besi malila dan berkaus besi dan tembaga;

    he is the king granted by God the possession of elephants caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli, and hundreds of elephants for use in war with steel-framed howdahs, their tusks sheathed and tipped in steel and their feet shod in steel and copper;

  13. #133
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Ikazz is Juragan Bata, sonic's historical contact I think....

    and I will definitely try to reduce some of it that was tad too many.... the similar units (with only little differences in either weaponary or battle usage) could be merged...

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  14. #134
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    Thanks...

    That's make a clear explanation and helping me matching the unit name with the one stated in Malay text....

    In Hikayat Hang Tuah the one that throwed is seligi

    "Maka kata Hang Jebat sambil menangkiskan seligi (javelin) dan anak damak (dart) seperti hujan datangnya....

    It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

    From my understanding, lembing is the one that thrown.

    Hmmm. what about lance?



    Kepada Jirisys: Hampeh mangkuk ayun ni kata kat aku.......
    Speak in english!!!!!! no indonesian!

    ~Jirisys (mshla hambaraa nunvbas lfies plsea csokles)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Because we all need to compensate...

  15. #135
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Correction, that was malayan.... well, Indonesian and Malayan language are quite similar, but with such critical difference that will made misunderstanding quite easy to occur...

    BTW, how's my request of uncarpeted Asian elephant skin? did you have put that? we should look at the model (apply that to the vanilla models)... so we can give about the details of their anatomy..

    @All : Please speak in english, except when quoting textual evidence... we can go in the Mod discussion thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tara-Total-War if we sorely need to talk something in Indo Malayan language.... (so no one will bang their head because of our mumblings)

    My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
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  16. #136
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Correction, that was malayan.... well, Indonesian and Malayan language are quite similar, but with such critical difference that will made misunderstanding quite easy to occur...

    BTW, how's my request of uncarpeted Asian elephant skin? did you have put that? we should look at the model (apply that to the vanilla models)... so we can give about the details of their anatomy..

    @All : Please speak in english, except when quoting textual evidence... we can go in the Mod discussion thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tara-Total-War if we sorely need to talk something in Indo Malayan language.... (so no one will bang their head because of our mumblings)
    Well i have uncarpeted it but i can't find it now... it seems i forgot to organize the folders and i can't remember the name... so it's all a mess... plus i had a long homework this weekend and a sports event on saturday... so i have been very busy (with the dancing practice for the event and all that stuff)

    Anyway... i thank you nagged them, but... that... didn't quite... made me... understand what he said

    ~Jirisys (daancing... yeah!)
    Last edited by jirisys; 04-27-2010 at 04:07.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Because we all need to compensate...

  17. #137
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Here a list of Malay's names:

    Male Names:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Abdul Jalil
    Abdul Karim
    Abdul Majid
    Abdul Malik
    Abdul Rahman
    Abdullah
    Abu Bakar
    Ahmad
    Ahmad Tajuddin
    Alauddin Mughayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
    Alauddin Riayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
    Ali
    Biajid
    Habib
    Hassan
    Ibrahim
    Isap
    Ishak
    Iskandar
    Jaafar
    Jenal
    Kadim
    Kassim
    Khoja Hassan
    Koris
    Mahmud
    Mansur
    Muhammad
    Mustafa
    Muzaffar
    Nadim
    Salahuddin
    Tajul Ariffin
    Yusuf
    Zainal Abidin
    Ismail
    Abdul Aziz
    Badrul Alam
    Abdul Halim
    Sulaiman


    Female Names:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Dang Baru
    Dang Kamala
    Dang Merdu
    Dang Anum
    Dang Sandang
    Dang Merduwati
    Dang Raya Rani,
    Dang Bibah
    Dang Bunga
    Tun Senja
    Tun Puteh
    Tun Wati
    Tun Kudu
    Jamilah
    Aminah


    Inherited Malay Titles (or surname)

    Usually Malay don’t have surname. Their name are base on (given name) Bin (or Binti for female) (name of his / her father). eg: Ali Bin Abu / Fatimah Binti Said : Ali and Fatimah are given names, while Abu and Said are their fathers.

    However, Malay has inherited titles (like Pangeran in Brunei and Indonesia) which are inherited through one’s descendant.

    Royal title:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Raja (Melaka royal family used this title)
    Tengku
    Tunku
    Engku
    Ungku


    Noble title:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Tun
    Wan
    Megat
    Che
    Syed (title of the descendant from Arab noble families)
    Sheikh (title of the descendant from Arab noble family / Muslim scholars)

    So, one’s name can be like this: Raja Ali / Tun Zainal Abidin / Tunku Ismail / Wan Ahmad (titles come first, followed by one’s name) and the titles are inherited by the descendant (like surname)

    Hmm, can RTW engine implement this? (Surnames come first, followed by names)




    Office titles

    Office titles were awarded after few years in office and they are non-hereditary. Usually, after a noble get a title, he was called by the title name to address him (like someone who changes his name).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Syah (only king and faction heir used this title, other member of royal family not used it)
    Sarwa Raja
    Paduka Raja
    Seri Buana
    Seri Maharaja Lela
    Seri Utama
    Tun Bija Sura
    Seri Maharaja
    Seri Sarwa Diraja
    Bija Sura
    Sang Nila Utama
    Seri Nara Diraja
    Seri Wak Raja
    Ratna Diraja
    Pekerma Jaya
    Perpatih Muka Berjajar
    Perpatih Tulus
    Paduka Tuan
    Seri Amar Diraja
    Narawangsa
    Perpatih Putih
    Perpatih Sedang
    Siwa Raja


    I Think in RTW engine, name cannot be changed. But it can be added using epithet. In EB, I have found that they are using epithet in export_VnVs.text files for Hayasdan, Pahlava and SPQR.

    So, for example, it will become like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    First case:

    A newly recruited general name is Tun Ali. Then, after have been awarded a title (eg Seri Maharaja Lela title), his name change to: Tun Ali Seri Maharaja Lela.


    Second case:


    At first, when a royal family members coming of age, his name is eg: Raja Ahmad
    Then, after have been awarded a title, his name change to: Raja Ahmad Seri Maharaja Lela.

    Then, after becoming faction leader, can his name be changed to Sultan Ahmad Syah?
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-27-2010 at 14:14.

  18. #138
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    we (mostly Sonic), actually plan to use offices as title, such as "Sultan of Malaka", "Sultan of Johor", "Sultan of Banten" (given the condition that the character govern at that specific Region(s) for quite some time, was a muslim, and no other one get the title. Of course, Hindu (and possibly Christian) characters, got the eqivalent "Raja Malaka", "Raja Banten".... that was quite easy ancillaries....

    "Sultan offices" ancillaries will be granted in condition that the character stay there for 12 turns and had "Zoroastrian (actually modded in text to shown as muslim)" as his traits. If he didn't have minimal Zoroastrian 1 trait, the "Raja offices" will be given instead....

    just like the lordship and satrapdom found in some certain mods....

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  19. #139
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Well, by using ancillaries, you can extend "Sultan Office" to other offices...like the 4 major offices of Bendahara (Prime Minister), Laksamana (Lord Admiral), Temenggung (Inspector General of Police) and Penghulu Bendahari (Minister of Finance).... I know that modding ancillaries is easier than modding traits....Well, if you all cannot make the titles come later and change character's name, we have to make the character name like "Tun Ali Datuk Paduka Raja" from the start...

    And, for your information, not all head of province get Sultan title. The title of head of province under a subjugation of bigger empire can be Penghulu (for small settlement) (like Tun Perak appointed as Penghulu of Kelang before promoted as Bendahara); or Mandulika / Mendelika (Governor, govern bigger settlement) and lastly, Raja (king, govern a state).

    In Sejarah Melayu, it was stated that the ousted Prince of Melaka, Raja Muhammad Syah (Son of Sultan Mansur Syah, ousted because kill a commoner), appointed as Raja Pahang, not Sultan of Pahang (Pahang at that time was vassal of Melaka). Terengganu had a special title for her governor, Megat Terengganu.

    The Sultan title can be with condition; Raja of a province has enough power to declaring independent from its protector. Then, he can claim he is the Sultan (of that province / state). It can be done trough peaceful way, or forceful way. These were the case:

    a) When last Sultan of Melaka pass away, Melakan Empire splited to two. The 1st Prince, Sultan Muzaffar Syah appointed as Sultan of Perak, and the remaining south empire ruled by 2nd Prince, Sultan Alauddin Riayat Syah (II) (1st Sultan of Johor). Pahang was still as the vassal of Johor, and the head of state still called Raja. (Peaceful way).

    b) During the reign of Sultan Abdul Jalil IV (Sultan Johor), Bendahara was granted Pahang as their personal fief. They are also known as "Raja Bendahara" for their status as the rulers of the vassal state of Pahang. Pahang was the vassal of Johore Sultanate. Tun Mutahir, Bendahara Seri Maharaja, Raja Bendahara Pahang V (1847-1863). He is the last reigning Raja Bendahara of Pahang. He was ousted by his brother Wan Ahmad who was later proclaimed as Sultan of Pahang after the dismemberment of the Johore Empire. (Forceful way)

    c) Raja Lumu, the son of Bugis Chief, Daeng Celak, govern the Selangor area at the height of Bugis influence in Malay peninsula. He originally met with opposition from the Sultans of Perak and Johor, as well as from the Dutch, but eventually managed to consolidate his position as sovereign. By 1770, Sultan Muhammad of Perak was forced to recognize Raja Lumu as Sultan of Selangor (he brought warships to Perak) and force Sultan of Perak to give insignia of Malay royalty and made installation ceremony as Sultan of Selangor. Then he changed his name to Sultan Salehuddin Syah. (Forceful way)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    "Sultan offices" ancillaries will be granted in condition that the character stay there for 12 turns and had "Zoroastrian (actually modded in text to shown as muslim)" as his traits. If he didn't have minimal Zoroastrian 1 trait, the "Raja offices" will be given instead....

    Well, it is not that the King get the Sultan title because he is more Islamic than the other......
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-28-2010 at 04:09.

  20. #140
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    hoo... then what about the possibility of hindu FM got "Sultan" title..... seems too weird.... (allready mentioned that we'll use floating religion system)

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  21. #141
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    No no Hindu's not get Sultan titles.... only Muslim's Sultan of Melaka, Sultan of Acheh.... and no Sultan of Pahang..... or Sultan of Johor titles can be awarded if there is Sultan of Melaka already.... existed.

  22. #142
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    and what abot the title of Raja? or Maharaja...
    I remember something about Seri Prameswara Dewa Syah (hindu king of malaka inserted in the line of Muslims), Maharaja Baladewa Iskandar Intan Syah (hindu king of palembang of muslim parents and his son later going (forced by the people's assembly) back to muslim... but he was definitely hindu... Not to mention the (often neglected, or actually... discounted from history and labelled as rebel by muslim historian because of his un-islamic act"... Prabu Aryo Penangsang of Demak "Sultanate" (he was actually hindu)

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  23. #143
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Well, in Sejarah Melayu, "Seri Parameswara Dewa Syah" is not mentioned. Historian associated Seri Parameswara Dewa Syah with Raja Ibrahim, and the religion was Hindu. the Sejarah Melayu mentioned this:

    Setelah itu maka anakanda baginda, Raja Ibrahim kerajaan menggantikan ayahanda baginda, gelar baginda Sultan Abu Syahid...

    Well, interesting...some contradiction with historian...

    Hindu King = Raja /Maharaja (clearly)
    Islam King = Sultan (the only head of an empire, not his vassal)
    Raja = Islam King that become governor of a vassal state (only a vassal of Melaka get Sultan title: Siak.... The others, like Pahang, Singapura, Terengganu = Raja (Megat for Terengganu)...if the head of Faction used Sultan (Muslim only), it is mean the Faction is not a vassal of anyone...it is independent....

    For Siak,it was a special case...Siak was client kingdom of Melaka, already have it's Sultan before submit to Melaka.

    So, in this game, who is Sultan?

    a) Muslim, and
    b) Faction Leader of Melaka and Acheh (other factions used Sultan besides these 2 in this game?), not a family member / general who govern a city.

    Well, a rebelling Muslim family member and become governor of the rebelling province can use Sultan.
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-28-2010 at 05:32.

  24. #144
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...

    yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 04-28-2010 at 07:27.

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  25. #145
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
    How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).



    and Cutewolf, as an orthodox muslim. I doubt that "biased" historian was real muslim.

  26. #146
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by plutoboyz View Post
    actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
    How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).



    and Cutewolf, as an orthodox muslim. I doubt that "biased" historian was real muslim.
    that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

    EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 04-28-2010 at 08:22.

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  27. #147
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

    EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)
    I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

    and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

    and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.

  28. #148
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by plutoboyz View Post
    I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

    and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

    and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.
    ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

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  29. #149
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...
    I not really sure how Sultanate of Acheh works, but in Malaysia it was like that. Even until now the King of Perlis is known by Raja Perlis.

    "The State of Perlis (Negeri Perlis Indera Kayangan) has its origins during the period of Thai rule over the northern Malay states. The Thais followed a classic "divide and rule policy" and divided the state of Kedah into sevelal region, namely Perlis, Kubang Pasu, Setul and Kedah. Perlis, a region within Kedah, became a separate polity under the former Sultan Zia ud-din Mukarram Shah II, after he abdicated in 1803.

    Sultan Zia's daughter married a Syed of Arabic descent, named Abu Bakar Harun Jamal' ul-Lail. The latter had been Penghulu, or subordinate chief, of Arau since 1797. His son and successor, Syed Husain received promotion to Raja of Perlis Indera Kayangan in 1843 by Thai's king, after helping the Thais to suppress a revolt by the Raja of Ligor. Raja of Perlis never installed properly as a Sultan, until now."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....
    I am not sure about that, but Sejarah Melayu or Hikayat Hang Tuah never mention about "Murtadin" as bad and tryrant kings. Even Hikayat Hang Tuah praised the Hindu's King of Vijayanagar and Nagapattinam as benevolent and justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by plutoboyz View Post
    actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
    How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).
    That's what I am trying to say in my #137 and #139 posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)
    I have suggest many example in my #137 and #139 posts. He can become bendahara, temenggung, laksamana (even laksamana come from the word Laksmi, Hindu Goddess), and Penghulu Bendahari, or just give him Raja or Maharaja.
    Last edited by Nyz; 04-28-2010 at 09:11.

  30. #150
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)
    hmm... Raja or Maharaja. because Raja is already adopted as Indonesian and Malay language. some Muslim Ruler also use Raja or Maharaja.

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