What are the Cimbri?

[Macilrille]

The example we know in most detail is Alaric's Goths. Their "Giro d'e Italia" included both other Germans, other barbarians and even Italians.

[cmacq]

And as water from the jug, what would the Goths be???

[Macilrille]

A keyboard no, yet some say, I read Dansk, well enough. How was the Beowulf?

But... you have "æ" I only just noticed.

Was I doing anything about Beowulf last we spoke? I forgot. I PM-ed you BTW and when I necro the debate about Gallic vs Roman manpower I suspect you might have something to contribute with there as well- for or against my point.

The Goths as example of how migrations, as they move, picked up others than those who set out. The Viking armies in the British Isles had quite a few non-Scandinavians.

[cmacq]

With both the Goth and Viking, their names might say more, than one would ever think? They say; one 'raids on' while the other 'pours forth.' As for the latter, the same may be said of the Jute, with only a slightly different tongue.


sorry have run for now.

[Urg]

I'm sorry, but all I'm really hearing is people saying that they were German, and couldn't possibly be anything else, without any proof.

I completely agree. There are some excellent historical and archaeological sources on this question. The Wikipedia article on the Cimbri actually has an excellent summary of the historical texts, with some very pertinent quotes.

How about people give some evidence in support of their arguments, rather than arguments alone. I'll start:

Florus, I:38, writes:

The Cimbri, Teutones and Tigurini, fugitives from the extreme parts of Gaul, since the Ocean had inundated their territories, began to seek new settlement throughout the world, and excluded from Gaul and Spain, descended into Italy

By the way, is the distinction between Germanic and Celtic peoples as clear as we like to think? For example, a tribe living on the banks of the Rhine may have both germanic and celtic/gallic traits.

[cmacq]

As for what is called German, in the late EB era, there may be those that find Line 5, Chapter 2 of Tacitus' 'Germania,' of some interest.

Chapter 2
[5] ceterum Germaniae vocabulum recens et nuper additum, quoniam qui primi Rhenum transgressi Gallos expulerint ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani vocati sint: ita nationis nomen, non gentis, evaluisse paulatim, ut omnes primum a victore ob metum, mox et a se ipsis invento nomine Germani vocarentur.

My Rendering
[5] On the other hand, the name German, is recent and newly used, whereas when those now the Tungres, somehow first crossed the Rhine and expelled the Gauls, they were called Germans, as explained a national (regional), not a tribal name, gradually became more popular, due to fear and success it surpassed, thus moved to this contrived name, and first began to call themselves Germans.

By AJ Church
[5] The name Germany, on the other hand, they say, is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror.

Here Tacitus didn’t say that the Tungri were the first to used the name Germani. Rather he points out that when the Tungri first crossed the Rhine into Gaul they were called Germani. Its very subtle, but he didn’t say they called themselves Germani, instead its implied the Gauls and Romans called them that. Next, he tells us these so-called Germans later became known as the Tungri. Finally, he reminds, that it was around this time, that the people east of the Rhine first began to call themselves by the contrived name; Germani. The reason Tacitus provided was because the Germani title had a reputation to invoked success and fear.

In other words, 'Germani' was actually a form of the well attested Latin 'Germane,' meaning 'real, true, original, seed,' or 'germ.' This particular usage is referenced in Strabo's Geographica. The Roman military applied this term to the opposition forces situated east of the Rhine and north of the Danube because they viewed the largely Celtic tribes there as similar to those found in adjacent areas under their control, yet in a much ‘less evolved’ or ‘original’ state. Later, in the very late 1st century BC or early 1st century AD, the events behind Tacitus’ story about the name being adopted by the natives, occured.

[Elmetiacos]

In other words, 'Germani' was actually a form of the well attested Latin 'Germane,' meaning 'real, true, original, seed,' or 'germ.'[/I]

Doesn't follow does it? The Latin is germen meaning a bud or shoot.

[cmacq]

Doesn't follow does it? The Latin is germen meaning a bud or shoot.

Actually it makes perfect sense. Look at a map that shows the extent of the Latene Culture and you'll find its center and homeland situated in the southern half of modern Germany. And, 'germen' as a variant of 'germane' or 'germana,' is early Latin, and was used by the Romans to suggest this was the region form which the Celts (as they and the Greeks defined them) arose.

[Elmetiacos]

You'll find it's basically the Rhine and Upper Danube rather than Germany... I'm not rejecting it as a possible etymology; it's more convincing than the usual "Shout-land" <*gar-sman- that's usually put forward, but I don't see that it follows logically from all that about the Tungri.

[cmacq]

Again, it seems to make perfect sense, so please reread. Plus, read Strabo's comment about the Latin origin and Roman use of the term Germania as found in his 'Geographica.' Here you’ll see its not so much my idea; rather its what Tacitus and Strabo actually wrote, about two thousand years ago, about a near contemporary subject. You also might want to take a look at all the late latene oppida and intense Celtic occupation (as in residential settlements) scattered throughout Bohemia, running directly west into modern southwest Germany (north of the Danube) to the Rhine, then north in a wide path along the river to the sea, and extending back including Westphalia to northeast Hesse down to the Danube. Overall, very dense, very complex; with the largest Celtic oppidum, found anywhere, located in central Hesse, with other huge ones in Bavaria and central Bohemia.

[Elmetiacos]

Late La Tene - by definition - sheds no light on the original region, unless your argument is just that the Romans mistakenly thought Celtic culture originated further East than it actually did because it seemed feasible in Caesar's time?

[cmacq]

Late La Tene - by definition - sheds no light on the original region, unless your argument is just that the Romans mistakenly thought Celtic culture originated further East than it actually did because it seemed feasible in Caesar's time?

Actually, an ethnically Celt Latene southern Germany is not my argument, its rather well established in the literature, so apparently you're not very well read. I suggest you crack a few things...

2007 Baitinger, H. & FR Herrmann,
Der Glauberg am Ostrand der Wetterau. Arch. Denkmäler Hessen 51.

1985 Feger, R. and M. Nadler
Beobachtungen zur urnenfelderzeitlichen Frauentracht. Vorbericht zur Ausgrabung 1983-84 in Grundfeld, Ldkr. Lichtenfels Oberfranken.

2000 Harding, A.F.
European Societies in the Bronze Age, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

2000 Kristiansen, K.
Europe before History (New Studies in Archaeology, Cambridge University Press.

1999 Probst, E.
Deutschland in der Bronzezeit, Bertelsmann, München.

1965 Reinecke, P.
Mainzer Aufsätze zur Chronologie der Bronze- und Eisenzeit, Habelt.

2005 Ullrich, M.
Das urnenfelderzeitliche Gräberfeld von Grundfeld/Reundorf, Lkr. Lichtenfels, Oberfranken, Materialhefte zur Bayrischen Vorgeschichte, Reihe B, Band 86.

1985 Herrmann, F.
Der Glauberg am Ostrand der Wetterau. Arch. Denkmäler Hessen 51.

1998 Herrmann, F.
Keltisches Heiligtum am Glauberg in Hessen. Ein Neufund frühkeltischer Großplastik. Antike Welt 29, 1998, 345—348.

1990 Herrmann, F.
Ringwall Glauberg; in: Die Vorgeschichte Hessens, Herrmann, F. and A. Jockenhövel (eds.); Stuutgart: Theiss, p. 385-387.

2005 Roymans, N.
Ethnic Identity And Imperial Power: The Batavians In The Early Roman Empire, Amsterdam University Press.

1985 Maier, F.
Das Heidetrank-Oppidum: Topographie Der Befestigten Keltischen Hohensiedlung Der Jungeren Eisenzeit Bei Oberursel Im Taunus, Deutsches Archaologisches Institut.

1986 Dehn, W.
Dünsberg. In J. Hoops (Ed.), Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, pp. 260-263.

1977 Jacobi, G.
Die Metallfunde vom Dünsberg, Volume 2 of Materialien zur Vor- und Frühgeschichte von Hessen. Selbstverlag des Landesamtes für Denkmalpflege Hessen.

1999 Rittershofer, K.
Ausgrabungen Dünsberg.

1999 Schlott, C.
Zum Ende des spätlatènezeitlichen Oppidum auf dem Dünsberg, Gemeinde Biebertal-Fellinghausen, Kreis Gießen, Hessen, Volume 2 of Forschungen zum Dünsberg. Editions Monique Mergoil.

2000 Herrmann, F.
Der Dünsberg bei Gießen: Führungsblatt zu dem Keltischen Oppidum bei Biebertal-Fellingshausen, Kreis Gießen (2 ed.), Volume 60 of Archäologische Denkmäler in Hessen. Landesamt für Denkmalpflege Hessen.

1977 Jacobi, G.
Die Metallfunde vom Dünsberg, Volume 2 of Materialien zur Vor- und Frühgeschichte von Hessen. Selbstverlag des Landesamtes für Denkmalpflege Hessen.

2004 Maier, F.
Das nordmainische Hessen im Randbereich der keltischen Oppida-Kultur, in Berichte der Kommission für Archäologische Landesforschung in Hessen, Heft 4, 1996/1997. Herausgegeben von Kommission für Archäologische Landesforschung in Hessen.

1980 Mildenberger, G.
Die germanische Besiedlung des Dünsbergs. Fundberichte aus Hessen 1977/78 17/18, 157-163.

1999 Rittershofer, K.
Ausgrabungen Dünsberg.

1999 Schlott, C.
Zum Ende des spätlatènezeitlichen Oppidum auf dem Dünsberg, Gemeinde Biebertal-Fellinghausen, Kreis Gießen, Hessen, Volume 2 of Forschungen zum Dünsberg. Editions Monique Mergoil.

1998 Schulze-Forster, J.
Noch einmal zu den latènezeitliche Grabgärten am Dünsberg. Berichte der Kommission für archäologische Landesforschung in Hessen 5, 49-64.

1996 Verlag, A.
Siedlungen der Vor- und Frühgeschichte in Butzbach und seinen Stadtteilen, in: Butzbacher Hefte 5.

1940 Gotze, A.
Führer auf die Steinsburg bei Römhild.

1998 Peschel, K.
The Steinsburg Hillfort, in The Celts (edit); Moscati, S., O. Frey, V. Kruta, B. Raftery, and M. Szabó; Rizzoli International Publications.

1982 Keiling, H.
Archäologische Funde vom Spätpaläolithikum bis zur vorrömischen Eisenzeit aus den mecklenburgischen Bezirken. Museumskatalog 1. Schwerin: Museum für Ur- und Frühgeschichte.

1988 Keiling, H.
Die Herausbildung der germanischen Stämme (ab etwa 6.Jahrhundert v.u.Z.): Die Entstehung der Jastorfkultur und zeitgleicher Kulturen im Rhein-Weser-Gebiet und deren geographische Verbreitung. In: B.Krüger (ed.), pp. 86–105.

1995 Künnemann, W.
Jastorf: Geschichte und Inhalt eines archäologischen Kulturbegriffs, Die Kunde N. F. 46, 61-122.

1986 Krüger, B. (ed.)
Die Germanen. Geschichte und Kultur der germanischen Stämme in Mitteleuropa. Vol. II: Die Stämme und Stammesverbände in der Zeit vom 3.Jahrhundert bis zur Herausbildung der politischen Vorherrschaft der Franken. Veröffentlichungen des Zentralinstituts für Alte Geschichte und Archäologie der Akademie der Wissenschaften der DDR. Berlin: Akademie-Verlag.

1991 Reinecke, A.
Studien zur vorrömischen Eisenzeit im Umland der südlichen Ostsee. Forschungsstand-Chronologie-Kulturhistorische Beziehungen. Ethnographisch-Archäologische Zeitschrift 21, 129-146.

1988 Voigt, T.
Die germanischen Stämme bis zum Beginn unserer Zeitrechnung: Kult- und Bestattungswesen. In: B.Krüger (ed.), pp. 182-191.

[Elmetiacos]

What do any of those links have to do with ethnicity? They all deal with material culture, ranging mainly across Northern Germany, from Holland down to Hesse to the Baltic Sea. It's almost like you posted them to obfuscate on the basis that if they're in German I wouldn't understand any of the titles. A bit like a certain other poster used to do. Ich hab' Angst, dass wir noch eine Sockenpuppe haben.

[cmacq]

What do any of those links have to do with ethnicity? They all deal with material culture, ranging mainly across Northern Germany, from Holland down to Hesse to the Baltic Sea. It's almost like you posted them to obfuscate on the basis that if they're in German I wouldn't understand any of the titles. A bit like a certain other poster used to do. Ich hab' Angst, dass wir noch eine Sockenpuppe haben.

Actually most deal with central Germany. Most, not all, were written by Germans, only because they are, German speakers. If one has no want, then there is not hope, of education.
In der Tat, alle wir sehen, was ist im 'Der Spiegel.'

Willkommen zu das Sturmgeschütz der Wissen

[oudysseos]

Na Männer, die Kartoffeln werden nicht heiss gegessen.

[cmacq]

Noch sind wir unerfahren essen

[Elmetiacos]

The first person to say that they need new towels in their room loses...

[gamegeek2]

That's it - I need to get somewhat of a hold on Deutsche.

I weigh in on cmacq's side here; the "bud/sprout/germ" etymology fits absolutely perfectly with the fact that southern Germany is the origin of the Celts.

[Elmetiacos]

I'd have to know more about Latin morphology to agree or disagree.

[geala]

As for what is called German, in the late EB era, there may be those that find Line 5, Chapter 2 of Tacitus' 'Germania,' of some interest.



Here Tacitus didn’t say that the Tungri were the first to used the name Germani. Rather he points out that when the Tungri first crossed the Rhine into Gaul they were called Germani. Its very subtle, but he didn’t say they called themselves Germani, instead its implied the Gauls and Romans called them that. Next, he tells us these so-called Germans later became known as the Tungri. Finally, he reminds, that it was around this time, that the people east of the Rhine first began to call themselves by the contrived name; Germani. The reason Tacitus provided was because the Germani title had a reputation to invoked success and fear.

In other words, 'Germani' was actually a form of the well attested Latin 'Germane,' meaning 'real, true, original, seed,' or 'germ.' This particular usage is referenced in Strabo's Geographica. The Roman military applied this term to the opposition forces situated east of the Rhine and north of the Danube because they viewed the largely Celtic tribes there as similar to those found in adjacent areas under their control, yet in a much ‘less evolved’ or ‘original’ state. Later, in the very late 1st century BC or early 1st century AD, the events behind Tacitus’ story about the name being adopted by the natives, occured.

I concur, but does this not contradict a little bit what you said in post No. 18, that "Germani(a)" was only used as a term for a certain region west of the Rhine and north of the Danube by the classical authors? Ok, it's more or less splitting of hairs.

[athanaric]

Fixed a few of your quotes. Sorry for being such a Grammar Nazi.

In der Tat, wir alle sehen, was im 'Spiegel' ist.

Willkommen zum Sturmgeschütz des Wissens

I'm afraid "Der Spiegel" is not the most reliable news source. They are sensationalist and maintain a constant "derisive" attitude towards everything.
Unless you were referring to Elmetiacos' "sock puppet" hypothesis

Noch sind wir unerfahren im Essen

Regarding cmaq's books:

The Glauberg fortress is a well-known Celtic hill fort in what is EB's Mrog Arctagone region (!). Quite interesting if you ask me. And we have more of these.

By the way, thanks for the book titles. They'll be useful for my studies.

[Huene]

can anyone translate all that gibberish posted above?

[athanaric]

can anyone translate all that gibberish posted above?

No. It's called bilingual bonus ^^

Plus those sentences don't really add anything of importance to the thread. Just talkin' metaphors.

[oudysseos]

Na Männer, die Kartoffeln werden nicht heiss gegessen.

@ Huene

"Guys, don't eat hot potatoes" means in this context, 'Calm down and stop sniping at each other'.

[cmacq]

They are sensationalist and maintain a constant "derisive" attitude towards everything.
Unless you were referring to Elmetiacos' "sock puppet" hypothesis

Indeed, thanks for getting my poor attempt at word-play, as the Mirror has often called itself 'the assult gun of Free-Speech.' Although, not in so many words.

Regarding cmaq's books:

The Glauberg fortress is a well-known Celtic hill fort in what is EB's Mrog Arctagone region (!). Quite interesting if you ask me. And we have more of these.

By the way, thanks for the book titles. They'll be useful for my studies.

Sir, you're welcome

As well, yes I now see my errors, thanks again.

[cmacq]

I concur, but does this not contradict a little bit what you said in post No. 18, that "Germani(a)" was only used as a term for a certain region west of the Rhine and north of the Danube by the classical authors? Ok, it's more or less splitting of hairs.

A good question.

Yes it was the formal Latin usage applied to a given region, as well as a collective title provided all the nations and peoples that lived therein. It was also sometimes used to classified those groups that claimed a history of once having lived within this region. I hope that clears up that point.

[cmacq]

One more thing about the Cimbri, that some may find of interest. It seems that the Imperial Roman government removed and relocated a large percentage of the Celto-Germanic population, from west and southwest Germania, roughly between 30 BC and AD 50. However, at nearly the same time they also appear to have recruited a large number of foreign troops, some of whom called themselves Cimbriani and Toutones. Collectively all these troops were quartered in military settlements established throughout those portions of west and southwest Germania controlled by the Romans.

Additionally, a large unit titled the 'Cimbriani Auxiliary' operated in southeast Europe between AD 20 and 60. Based on a number of monuments, the Cimbri seemed to have made up a large portion of the field force concentrated in the Main area, where they trained to serve as auxiliaries designed to hold and help protect the frontier. Overall, evidence that large number of Cimbri warriors severed in the Roman army in the Greinberg area can be conclusively dated from before AD 191 to 283. However, additional evidence indicates that Cimbri military units continued to be part of the Roman army well into the 5th century AD.

[Macilrille]

Hey Joe, what are the sources for this? I want to see it ;-)
If we assume that Cimbrii were from N Jutland it sort of fits (though the Romans would probably have labelled anyone from Jutland Cimbrii). Most of Jutland seems to imitate Roman ruler-ideology, etc. Except for an area roughly corresponding to the Eudosi (jyder?) here in Aarhus-bygden; most populous, wealthy and fertile in Jutland, which seem to have resisted and stuck to old ways for the first (half? I cannot recall) of the 1st Century AD, then they too follow the trend. Coincidentally there is one other area with the same characteristic; the Cherusci, their reasons are obvious (though the written sources shows a more varied and detailed picture than the archeological evidence with the tribal aristocracy of the Cherusci splitting over it, and even Arminus eventually growing too like a sovereign for his people's liking).

[cmacq]

Hallof, L. and U. Lehmann 1989
Inscriptiones urbis Romae Latinae, Volume 6, Page 265.

You can look here as well:

Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum
Epigrafia monumentale gallo-romana

Mercurius Cimbrianus / Cimbrius

[CIL xiii 6402]
[CIL xiii 6604]
[CIL xiii 6605]

As well

LVGOVES (followers of Lugus)

[CIL xiii 3023]
[CIL xiii 1125]

Plus in the same general area there are many other inscriptions that simply say 'Mercurius.'
Therfore Lugus may have been suggested.

Also see 'Notitia Dignitorium.'

[cmacq]

I believe that the Cimbri's latter or 2nd exodus (not the 1st which occured in the 2nd century BC and ended in defeat) and employment with the Romans was most likely similar to that of the Jutes among the Frisians and early Danes. Herein the Fight at Finnsburg Fragment and Beowulf's Finnsburg stories may prove instructive.

The Fight at Finn's Town
There was sound and song, made as one, before the Half-Dane thanes, with harp strummed, a story often passed, to occupy the court, as Spear-Fame's seer, faced mead-benches, and recited thus.

When Finn’s heir, was seized by fear, and the Half-Dane hero, the Shield-ling Hnaef, whereupon a Frisian battle-field, were both fated to be killed. Not in truth did Hideburh, need to praise the Jutes good-will, she so-honored without guilt, yet deprived of those beloved, by war-play her son and borther, their lot to fall spear-wounded, whereby she became, the grieving wife. Not without good-reason, did Hoc’s daughter, bemoan Fate’s decree, when morning came, she thereafter, could clearly see great slaughter, where just-before was held, a joyous world. However now the fullmoon, wanders through cloudy-skies, thus evil should be felt among this gathered folk, for bitter deeds would soon be delt. This place burns not cried out a king, one new to war, it’s not the dawn, here no dragons fly, nor do the pitched-roofs of these halls burn, yet we hear the war bird’s song, grey wolves howl, and spears rattle as shafts on shields resound. Battle swept Finn's thanes near all away, but only few was he able, to gather for a final-fight, with the prince's retainer, the Stallion, nor had the dead, been pulled from sight. So to them, a truce was offered, to make ready another house, for hall and throne, and there allow the men of Stallion, to once again half-share, the payment due the sons of Jute. Therefore Folk-Leader's son honored the Danes, the next day just the same, as Stallion's troops, by giving rings, as likewise the Frisians were treated, in the Beer-Hall that was built. Here was sworn both sides, a firm cessation; by Finn and Stallion with boundless zeal, declared as oath, to those wretched few, an agreement upheld with honor, that no man by word or deed, would break by way of folly, or deceit. Although the killer of their ring-giver complied, they were leaderless, so-whether one forgot what had happened, that if any Frisian, spoke rashly of revenge, they thereafter, would be reminded, by the sword's cruel edge. With this resolution a pyre was prepared, and Ing’s gold image was brought from hoard, and Fighting-Shield's best warriors, were made ready, for the fire. As keen to be upon the pyre, in bloodstained battle-shirts, all golden swine these iron-hardened boars, that many wounds took away; these great ones, noblemen felled duly-slain. By Hildeburh's order on Hnæfe's pyre, her son she commited to the fire, at his uncle's shoulder a body laid, to be devoured by the flames. This Lady mourns with dirge laments these warriors rise: then curl as smoke to the clouds, as the great blaze roars over this wooden heap; heads melt, wounds bust forth, then blood springs, from this loathsome bite. Fire consumed all with spirit most eager, both kin that war had swept away; and with this in turn her good-fortune, would soon be gone.