StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Sigurd]

I would like to point out that this was "thrilling" only to people who knew that was how the game worked. The rest of us who thought this was a normal mafia game were only focused on hunting the Sith, and many of us didn't particularly care about our personal survival. I can think of several instances in which players made night actions to benefit the town as a whole, even though it made them more vulnerable to being killed. That's the exact opposite of what they should have been doing in this game. The only real way for any Jedi to win this game was to do everything he could to stay alive long enough to become a Sith. That's pretty much the antithesis of Jedi ethos and acting like that would have severely detracted from the fun roleplaying aspect of the game.

This should have been more apparent if there had been more Sith dying. But the two initial Sith were just too darn good at subterfuge.
Hadn't it been for Niklas' unfortunate out of game accident, I believe both he and Subotan would have coasted through to the end. I counted on there being more Sith deaths, and when the town figured it out by the endless supply of Sith, they would start positioning themselves for a possible recruitment.

I honestly thought that was happening in the game at one point. But with your comments now - I see this was not the case.

[pevergreen]

Sigurd, you never answered my question.

If ATPG had died, would the game have gone to another day phase.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I designed the game to be a game that would whittle down to a Grand Master against the Sith. There would always be a Grand Master and it would be one of the Masters who got promoted if the game were one short.

But that's not quite the case... it was actually designed to whittle down to a Grand Master against 2 Sith, specifically, not just one. And, that meant that the Grand Master would lose, because there would be ways around both Force Protect and Force Cloak if 2 Sith attacked. (edit: or would there have been? )

Even if you use Vigilante kills, those who did the vigilante kills become the new Sith. So there's nothing to gain...

The Sith saw this and would let at least another Master survive if one of them were publicly also a Master (like Psycho). If they killed all the Masters and a Knight was promoted both to a Master and then to a Grand Master, the Sith with Master rank would be spotted.

I'm not sure I follow.

I made the players think that certain actions would be dangerous to use, to put the thrill into the game. The players were meant to feel conflict in deciding what to do. Gaining power would be a risk.
I hoped to create an illusion of growing in knowledge and power.

That was another thing; this part wasn't quite true, but the effect was felt by players who didn't want to use vig powers, under the impression they would turn to the dark side. That takes tools away from an already designed-to-be-defeated team.

So... no. The game would most likely end with a Sith victory. The thrilling bit was - who would it be? Which one of the players would stay afloat and reach the end game. They had to be just lynch bait enough to not be killed by the Sith or lynched by the town. It would be a fine line to balance on.

Other than one of the Sith turning on the other prematurely, was there any real avenue of Jedi victory?

The only chance the Jedi had were to kill the apprentice in the last battle and survive the Dark Lord of the Sith's attempts to kill the GM and just lynch him with the help of all the Jedi force Ghosts.

Okay, well.... let's see if I can picture that. Jedi uses vigilante power against one of the two other players remaining. Only vig power he has is Force Lightning.

The Sith have Force Cloak or Force Protection, so the vig power is ineffective unless they have Force Protection and the GM is using Morichro. He also has to select the correct Sith, whichever one doesn't have Force Cloak, for this to have any chance of success. Given that all the Sith seemed to have this power, that makes it even less likely. So, he must use Force Lightning and Morichro to even stand a chance, which leaves no ability slots for Force Protection or Force Cloak of his own, which means when 2 Sith attack him, he's totally toast.

Hmm...

But let's back up a step. Suppose it got down to Diamondeye, Askthepizzaguy, Subotan, and pevergreen. Or whatever the night was where Diamondeye died.

If I had protected Diamondeye instead of what I did that night, with Force Healing, Diamondeye survives. And then it is 2 Jedi versus 2 Sith. Then, we lynch the "correct" Sith that day, leaving 2 Jedi and only the apprentice Sith. This is plausible because I actually suggested either defending myself or DE at the time, since I thought pevergreen was either neutral or intentionally being unhelpful.

Then, I get promoted to a Sith, and Diamondeye uses a vigilante power against me that same night, while also using Force Cloak to defend himself. Suppose I use Force Healing on Diamondeye while he does this, and I get turned to Sith that night but I don't have time to gain enough powers to be a threat. I die due to vigilante hit, leaving Diamondeye (Grandmaster) versus pevergreen (new Dark Lord of the Sith)

pevergreen is lynched, survives, and Diamondeye defends against pevergreen's attacks that night. pevergreen is lynched again, jedi victory. If the above is plausible, then the Jedi had a chance at victory beyond pevergreen's Sith betrayal.

A strong town network (ironically) would gather all the small tidbits of information and you would soon go from the uninformed minority to be quite informed. There were of course many elements in the game that discouraged such an endeavour (the recruiting being the main one).

I think the only disappointment factor that people really have with the game is that the game was more like a battle royale than a mafia game, where folks are temporarily allied until they have to destroy each other. Granted, everything looked exactly like a mafia game, but the ultimate ending would always have been 2 Sith versus 1 Grandmaster, one that was designed for the Jedi to lose. It really is only by a fluke... a freak decision, that the Jedi won anything. I would have been toast had pevergreen destroyed me with Subotan.

What I would have recommended is that there was a more reasonable Jedi victory condition. That way the game was less of an illusion (albeit a fun one) and more like a mafia game than a last man standing fight. The thing which makes less sense is that everyone can turn to the dark side. Which is disappointing for many who tried the entire game to crush the Sith, only to turn at the last minute. If one battles the Sith all their lives, and sees all their friends die, they become hardened to it and would refuse to turn, even under threat of death.

Specifically, I'd offer these constructive additions:

• There should be some advantage in defeating both starting Sith. I believe those Sith should be the only ones who can forcibly convert a new Sith upon their death automatically. What the non-starting Sith should have is a slightly weaker conversion ability... like instead of automatic recruitment, they have to recruit instead of killing.... OR, those they recruit should be able to say "no". OR, if they are attempting to recruit a Jedi Master, it should have some chance of failure. Say, if that Jedi Master was using Force Cloak, the Sith wouldn't be able to find and then convert said Jedi Master. Or, if the player in question was being actively roleblocked, he couldn't find the Sith holocron and then turn.

Any of those small additions (not even necessarily all of them) would give the Jedi a fighting chance.

• If you do give the Jedi that chance, then I believe Force Ghost should be automatically granted to Grandmasters, but Grandmasters only. That way the Sith have a better chance against the vote. That counterbalances the jedi's nearly unstoppable voting power. The Sith face too much resistance if they continually defeat the Grandmaster, because then a new Force Ghost appears. Only the starting Sith should ever be able to gain Force Ghost as a power.

Near the endgame, the Sith had no chance of overpowering the Jedi via the vote. Whereas, the endgame is usually when the mafia control enough of the vote to make any division within the town a fatal one. Force Ghost should have been more rare among the Jedi. With those tweaks, I believe that both the Jedi and the Sith teams would agree that the game was truly winnable for both sides. A strange thing for me to say, but... other than the early and ill-advised betrayal by the Sith apprentice, there would have been a very, very unlikely set of circumstances required for the Jedi to win.

• Force Breath is great, but you should only be able to get that power once in the whole game. My my my lynching Cent three times was annoying. Imagine if he WAS a Sith!!!

That would have been totally not cool.

I believe the Jedi team played an excellent game, but most of that excellence was towards the end. The beginning was one blundering disaster exposing an important role after the other, and we only caught Niklas through a mistake in another game, which shouldn't impact this game but you can't really delete it once it is in your brain. So I can see where the Jedi team could have improved, and even deserve to lose the game. But, I also believe the Jedi team really redeemed themselves with very intelligent endgame play. There was much pressure on both Sith, and that was based on evidence and so forth, not just randomness. Then we lynched them in the correct order, and could have taken them both out with the lynch if Force Breath didn't exist.

I think the Sith team played a superior game, up until the very end. There, they revealed their hand before they should have (but, it's understandable... who would have seen pever's betrayal coming?) and that is what made the Subotan lynch automatic. There was no chance of missing a Sith at that point. Then, the division among them and pevergreen's gamble based on a misunderstanding of his chances meant that they made enough mistakes where they also deserve to lose the game. It really became a toss up by that point.

• I think that the Jedi's passive defenses were too strong. They should only have been able to defend against one or two of the Sith's 4 possible attacks individually, leaving it always possible for one Sith to take out one Jedi. A true rock-paper-scissors matchup would have been preferable.

The endgame battle was too imbalanced toward the Jedi Grandmaster surviving because there was no possible way for pevergreen to get through my defenses if I used them correctly. And then of course, since it was otherwise designed to be 2 Sith versus 1 Jedi in the endgame regardless, that battle would have been nearly impossible for the Jedi to win.

I suppose if he had both Force Cloak and Force Protect at the same time.... then the Jedi had a chance versus 2 Sith, with Force Ghosts helping him.


Just my thoughts. It seems that, without perfect knowledge of how to proceed, the Sith did indeed have a chance to lose this game. But, they had the tools to win outright in basically any circumstance. The only counter I see is using Force Cloak and Protect and the same time. But, if that was ever possible in this game, then the Jedi always had a chance. And if they always had a chance, then the game is perfectly balanced, and ignore all of the above.

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, you never answered my question.

If ATPG had died, would the game have gone to another day phase.

No... it would have been a Sith victory.
You would have finished as the Sith Lord, subordinate to the Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Youch.

That's gotta sting a bit.

[pevergreen]

Nah, thats good, that means what I did was the only way. If it had of continued, I would have made a mistake.

[Subotan]

[Sigurd]

If you look closely there are no win conditions in the Townie Role PMs (Jedi). So you presumed you had one.

The game was called Return of the Sith for a reason.
The back-story was quite clear in that a balance to the force was needed; that the force could not exist without the dark side. And with no dark side - there would be no light side.

40 players all Jedi at the outset - with no victory conditions.
After 12 hours the Sith Holocron chose two random players from the 39 susceptible to the force. The fist picked became the Dark Lord of the Sith, the second The Sith Lord. Their victory condition was to eliminate all Jedi on the ship.

They were both initiates and had a long journey regarding gaining powers.
If those with investigative powers had used them, you would have very soon noticed that all players (except Yoda, the Sith and those who used Stealth) would come up as susceptible to the dark side, and you would have then used your vig powers not worrying about the dark side.
The clues were all in the game – it was just for you to figure them out.
There were really no restrictions on how you would come to this knowledge.

I have already admitted that the game was not balanced. It was not meant to be. It was an illusion and apparently the illusion was too good as you now feel cheated after the game is finished.

I have to ask... how many of you have played sports? The sportsmanship issue also applies even if you are Lichtenstein playing against Canada in Ice Hockey. Sure they will lose, but do they forfeit?
No they play anyway and enjoy the game for the game’s sake and not for the outcome.
Fair enough, you were not aware that you were playing Canada and as such weren’t prepared for the loss. But you won… and later complain that you shouldn’t have won.

This was a mafia game because there was an uninformed majority against an informed minority. There were two phases in each round, one where you did night activities and another where you collectively lynched someone. These are the criteria we look for in game to call it a Mafia game. All the other aspects are fluff; balance, roles, themes and back-stories.

[pevergreen]

Hey, I gotta say, if the game had of gone to a day phase if we killed ATPG, i'd be feeling pretty darn stupid right now.

[Subotan]

Why? You would have won.

[Sigurd]

Okay, well.... let's see if I can picture that. Jedi uses vigilante power against one of the two other players remaining. Only vig power he has is Force Lightning.

I think I mentioned that you could use Lightsaber as a second attack.
A Grand Master could Morichro a player and then kill him with any of the Vig abilities.
Two night actions with two abilities in each.

1 Interrogation + Morichro -> player A (beats protection but not Cloak)
2 Force Lightning + Lightsaber -> player A

The only restiction I gave was that you couldn't kill twice. The Sith had the same restriction.

The Sith have Force Cloak or Force Protection, so the vig power is ineffective unless they have Force Protection and the GM is using Morichro. He also has to select the correct Sith, whichever one doesn't have Force Cloak, for this to have any chance of success. Given that all the Sith seemed to have this power, that makes it even less likely. So, he must use Force Lightning and Morichro to even stand a chance, which leaves no ability slots for Force Protection or Force Cloak of his own, which means when 2 Sith attack him, he's totally toast.

Only if they were lucky in the Force lottery.
I don't have the data in front of me, but I don't think Psychonaut or Niklas had those powers. And I don't think pever got them until the very end (I could remember it wrong).

What I would have recommended is that there was a more reasonable Jedi victory condition. That way the game was less of an illusion (albeit a fun one) and more like a mafia game than a last man standing fight. The thing which makes less sense is that everyone can turn to the dark side. Which is disappointing for many who tried the entire game to crush the Sith, only to turn at the last minute. If one battles the Sith all their lives, and sees all their friends die, they become hardened to it and would refuse to turn, even under threat of death.

That is not true... That is not the deciding factor for turning to the dark side. Too many of the Sith witnessed the death of loved ones by the hands of Sith. It was the strong emotions that followed that turned them to the dark side. This was the angle to recruit - to get the candidate so unstable that he/she fell regardless of prior sentiments.

I was conteplating on having all just neutral and then make them susceptible to the dark side if they lost their cool in the game. If a player became a little emotional or accusive - they would step up on the path that lead to the dark side. But then I couldn't choose the first two Sith - which was a major element in the game. I had hoped that there would be a lot of banter in the beggining when there were no Sith. There have been games where the Mafia were caught for slipping up in the beginning banter.

I suppose if he had both Force Cloak and Force Protect at the same time.... then the Jedi had a chance versus 2 Sith, with Force Ghosts helping him.

Just my thoughts. It seems that, without perfect knowledge of how to proceed, the Sith did indeed have a chance to lose this game. But, they had the tools to win outright in basically any circumstance. The only counter I see is using Force Cloak and Protect and the same time. But, if that was ever possible in this game, then the Jedi always had a chance. And if they always had a chance, then the game is perfectly balanced, and ignore all of the above.

Both the Jedi and the Sith could get both powers and Subotan had them for a long time.
I think TinCow had both as well... And yes you could use both as one of the night abilities.
pever was the only one to my recollection that utilised both as an active defence. Subotan only used one...

Remember: Two night actions, with two abilities. Clearly you could Cloak and then Protect at the same night.

I have made a package of music, character cards, images, rewards, movies etc...
If anyone wishes to do iterations of this game with slighly alterations. I am willing to give you access to my material.
A second iteration would be different when you know more about the game and its features.

One of the endings I thought for a winning Grand Master was that he/she would be all alone on the ship and in agony over the loss of friends and companions. He/she would be on his/her knees on the command bridge shouting "Why oh why??!!" pounding the floor with his/her fists.
He/She would prostrate him/herself on the floor in tears and finally look up having glowing amber eyes of hatred.

But I think ... that would have been pushing the Return of the Sith theme a little to much.

The particular ending of this game is easily recognised.
Nomi returns with the ship to Coruscant, is questioned by the council of the Jedi. Shows her new powers and starts the new era. But the force will only work if there is a balance between the Dark Side and the Light Side, so naturally someone would be drawn to the Sith holocron and fall to the Dark Side of the force and this ensuring that the light side survives as well...

[Askthepizzaguy]

Fair enough, you were not aware that you were playing Canada and as such weren’t prepared for the loss. But you won… and later complain that you shouldn’t have won.

Oh don't get me wrong. I was just asking questions regarding the setup, and was curious about the ability of one side to win, or what would have been involved. Not complaining at all.

I'm just very curious about how you envisioned the game and what the thought process behind everything was, and wanted to gauge for myself whether the Jedi team had a route to victory other than fluke, and I believe I came up with perhaps one or two. Which satisfies me in terms of game balance. Apologies if it came off sounding too critical.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have made a package of music, character cards, images, rewards, movies etc...
If anyone wishes to do iterations of this game with slighly alterations. I am willing to give you access to my material.
A second iteration would be different when you know more about the game and its features.

I would be most interested in this. This game has given me a mountain of ideas, and I had been planning on doing a Star Wars game for about a year now. Access to your material would be a godsend.

[Diamondeye]

Please do, ATPG.
((And make me sith, then you can have a cookie!))