Ship Movement

[Tochata]

Could Ships be modded to move farther? It doesn't make sense to me that it takes a year or longer to cross the Mediterranean.

[Sarkiss]

sure they can. i like how RTR FOE modified ship movements so that they must keep close to the shore.

[Ludens]

Welcome to the .Org, and to EB.

Yes it is possible, but following the same reasoning an army should be able to march the length of Italy in one turn. However, realistic marching distances were not implemented in EB1 to prevent the "teleporting army" effect. This is especially problematic because the engine does not distinguish between marching through friendly and hostile territory, thus allowing the player to invade deep into enemy land without the garrison armies being able to respond. That's not realistic, and can easily be exploited against the A.I. I don't think this will change for EB2.

[Julianus]

Maybe we can subdivide the turns, say have 1 turn per month, and reduce the movement speed per turn accordingly, so the player and AI both will get more chance to react to each other's movements.
Hence we will also get most turns with no battles, just strategic maneuvers, followed by a few turns of fierce fights. I believe it would be better than now when we could reduce one city and move on to attack another next turn.

[Cybvep]

Maybe we can subdivide the turns, say have 1 turn per month, and reduce the movement speed per turn accordingly, so the player and AI both will get more chance to react to each other's movements.
Hence we will also get most turns with no battles, just strategic maneuvers, followed by a few turns of fierce fights. I believe it would be better than now when we could reduce one city and move on to attack another next turn.

Game would take forever. 4 turns per years is a good compromise IMO. We don't have real time movement in campaign map, so we must accept the drawbacks of turn-based one.

[Julianus]

Game would take forever. 4 turns per years is a good compromise IMO. We don't have real time movement in campaign map, so we must accept the drawbacks of turn-based one.

I believe not, if you can move much shorter than present, then in most turns you won't meet any enemy and there will be no battle. So These turns will pass very quickly, only the few turns when battle take place will take the same time as a turn does at present.
I think it won't take much more time this way.

[Grade_A_Beef]

The problem with doing that is that you then have to increase the building times for units and buildings. If you're going by the monthly turn system and I multiply everything by three, it'll take me three turns to build sanitation. It's a huge turn off for those factions that go into debt immediately, like Sweboz, Getai, Pontos, and many many others.

[Tochata]

It only becomes an issue with me when you are talking about bringing a character back to Rome for elections. Then you have to get him to his province but his term as praetor or consul only lasts one year. I know this is why there are propraetors and proconsuls but I would like the elected official to reach his province before his term ends.

Also thanks for the welcome. I've read a lot here and finally decided to contribute.

[Cyclops]

I would love to see a bit more resolution in this way if it were possible. Much higher movement, with slower movement in hostile territory would be excellent. The ZOC from ETW is a promising feature for EB3 if if if...

12 tpy, with certain resources "paying off" at certain times of the year like fishing ports not giving money in winter, and farms maxing out at harvest time (usually Autumn) would also be cool.

However12 tpy would need vastly improved ai, it'd be pretty easy to go off the rails by building a queue of the wrong units (eg ships that take 6 months) or committing spending to the wrong buildings for dozens of turns.

[vartan]

This is especially problematic because the engine does not distinguish between marching through friendly and hostile territory, thus allowing the player to invade deep into enemy land without the garrison armies being able to respond. That's not realistic, and can easily be exploited against the A.I. I don't think this will change for EB2.

Reason it won't change is 'cause team is helpless in this case. The engine, based on the engine from Rome:Total War, does not have the feature of a "zone of control", something players of the recent title Napoleon:Total War know all too well about. It's sad but what can one do? I guess it's a good thing. If the game was too perfect...nah, that'd just be too dangerous.

[Macilrille]

I would love to see a bit more resolution in this way if it were possible. Much higher movement, with slower movement in hostile territory would be excellent. The ZOC from ETW is a promising feature for EB3 if if if...

12 tpy, with certain resources "paying off" at certain times of the year like fishing ports not giving money in winter, and farms maxing out at harvest time (usually Autumn) would also be cool.

However12 tpy would need vastly improved ai, it'd be pretty easy to go off the rails by building a queue of the wrong units (eg ships that take 6 months) or committing spending to the wrong buildings for dozens of turns.

286 years x 12 turns, I fear boredom... endless waiting in enemy turns...

[seienchin]

286 years x 12 turns, I fear boredom... endless waiting in enemy turns...

Indeed. I guess 12 turns would only be possible with provincial campains.

[[cF]HanBaal]

+1

I was one of the if not the biggest supporter for the feature of more turns per year back in the days. I remember Myrdraal pioneering the project a lot of ppl were against due to the introduction of the famous script (now look all the things the 'holy script' has done for the game). 12tpy would be a great improvement to the campaign movement of armies and characters and to the strategic play, almost eliminating the 'teleporting problem'. As someone said it would close this game more and more to a real-time-strategy game geting the best of both worlds (RTG and turn-based game). Of course a huge work of rebalancing units/building costs and recruitment/building times but it is definitely doable (actually just divide some by 3 and multiply others by 3). I doubt though because this was on the table (i was among those who pushed for a 12tpy) and the team back then decided it would slow the game down too much. But as someone said it would only slow in the number of 'end turn' waiting time (which ain't that big anyway). In all the rest as someone also said: more turns doesnt equal more battles. It would be exactly the same with the exception of a much more realistic campaign map movement and consequently a much better game overall.

cumps

[Tochata]

While having to do the work to change all of the building and recruiting times is a pain, it is also adds to the realism. Some units could be trained in 1-2 turns and others could take 4-5 instead of just dividing everything by 3. And even if 12 tpy isnt possible 6-9 would make movement a little better. Also To me enemy turns don't last that long at all. Its the battles that take up the most time.

[jirisys]

I also would like the 12 tpy feature, i know it's a hell of a lot more to script everything, but it would make movement less frustrating

~Jirisys (dreaming about 12tpy since I first played EB)

[Cute Wolf]

I also would like the 12 tpy feature, i know it's a hell of a lot more to script everything, but it would make movement less frustrating

~Jirisys (dreaming about 12tpy since I first played EB)

in M2TW, you only need to modify a line turns per year.... in the descr_strat... but that will cause 6 winter and 6 summer each year...

[jirisys]

that's the problem, because, IIRC, characters age on winter, so that would be 6 years old per year, lol

~Jirisys (awaiting the spam to death from Meth for liking me)

[anubis88]

Not to mention that with 12tpy, only 3 or 4 factions would remain by 200 BC

[jirisys]

Not to mention that with 12tpy, only 3 or 4 factions would remain by 200 BC

No because of movement restriction, but isn't it possible to alter the movement of specific units? Say a pentekoiroi to a quinquireme?

~Jirisys (now with cream)

[Cute Wolf]

that's the problem, because, IIRC, characters age on winter, so that would be 6 years old per year, lol

~Jirisys (awaiting the spam to death from Meth for liking me)

no, M2TW had better aging system... they are tagged per 4 cycle period or some sort.... but it was somewhat repaired in kingdoms, and based on date advance I think

[Fulminatrix]

12tpy is the most realistic option and if EB teams strives for true realism this is the greatest factor of it all. In roman times the average sailing time from rome to egypt is 2-3months but in the game it takes almost 2 years. LOL!! in reality marching from rome to over there takes much lesser time. Riding from rome to spain doesnt even take a month.

[fightermedic]

i think 12 tpy is a baaaaaaaaaad idea
it would be awesome if calculating time when pressing the end turn button would be <5 sekonds
but as it is .. for example in stainless steel 6.2 it takes about 1+ minute until its you turn again.. boring as hell (and i guess with all the scripts and all factions playable from the start EB2 will be even longer)
if you just wait for something to finisch you might well have to wait 10 minutes where you do nothing but waiting

[Foot]

The most realistic option for EBII would not be 12tpy by any means, instead it should be a real time campaign map that would allow for all movements to happen simultaneously. Unfortunately EBII is based on a turn-based strategy map and so we have to make the best with what we can do.

Foot

[Cambyses]

i think 12 tpy is a baaaaaaaaaad idea
it would be awesome if calculating time when pressing the end turn button would be <5 sekonds
but as it is .. for example in stainless steel 6.2 it takes about 1+ minute until its you turn again.. boring as hell (and i guess with all the scripts and all factions playable from the start EB2 will be even longer)
if you just wait for something to finisch you might well have to wait 10 minutes where you do nothing but waiting

I totally agree with this. Regardless of all other factors. So much end turn would make the game practically unplayable. You know that the EB2 team will have maxed out all the game settings. The waiting times will be long.

[Tochata]

Could the government buildings for a faction give units from that faction around 3X the normal moment? That way you could simulate the difference between your territory and enemy territory. I am not a modder so i dont know but i thought it would be a good way of doing it since it seems each faction has its own named government building.

[bobbin]

It could be done by script, I'm not sure we'd want to though, one of the main problems with huge movement points (at least in RTW) was that it causes the AI's pathfinding to mess up.

[Ichon]

I'm fine with land movement for the most part... quite slow over rough terrain but roads and the traits/ancillaries carried by general change that over 50%. It makes sense to for the region sizes and historical rates of expansion for the most part match the movement and AI can deal with it.

Ship speed however... very annoying though I'm not sure what can be done about it with MTW2 engine. The AI probably couldn't deal with faster ship movement very well although it doesn't deal with ships very well now anyway so not sure that is a huge loss. Plus it would be fun as a player to occasionally have a massive pirate fleet or enemy fleet appear out of seeming nowhere for unprepared naval engagement.

[Blxz]

What I dislike the most is that the EB team needs to make it so that players can't attack deep into enemy territory in one turn. Isn't that simply a choice made by them on how they feel somehting should be played rather than adhereing to their idea that realism and accurate portrayle is more important? While I understand the reasoning behind it I would think that MOST players, especially role-players, would choose not to deep attack. It would be far more useful in turns of moving around within your own territory but would require only the smallest amount of self control to not attack a nation on the otherside of the continent. I find it quite frustrating that it takes many turns to simply move regional troops from the east to the west as the Arche Seleukeia. This is most definately not historical as troops were drawn from different regions within the empire but currently this is all but impossibly unless you plan 20 years in advance.

While I understand that this will be slightly easier to do in M2TW because there doesn't seem to be a maximum length that move orders can be queued it is still massivley unrealistic. I beleive realism as well as gameplay would be better suited by at least double current movement for troops and/or boats and certainly for agents. Any comments on this for or against?

[Foot]

Its not the player thats the problem. Its the AI. Try increasing movement rates and see what happens to the AI and pathfinding.

EB is built upon a turn-based strategy campaign game. We can't get around with this. That is the game, and that is what EB must be.

Foot

[NIKOMAHOS]

About ship movement just to avoid AI and armies teleporting I agree that we are not able to represent their realistic movement despite the fact that I don't like the ships ability to cross just the half of the Aegean sea in a season.
Just notice that from Alexandreia to Peiraeus a ship needed 6 days. From Alexandreia to Byzantion 9 and from Alexandreia to Massalia 16 (calculate the average trireme travel speed of 5.2 kts). Ship repairs would probably double or even triple this time.
We all forgot a serious issue. Sailing in Mediterranean sea would occure for just 100 days in April-May and late summer. So I believe we could increase the movement of ships (not as accurate as it was) but we could use the storms (you all lost fleets in M2:TW Americas) this would represent the destruction of Seleucid fleets in Diadohoi Wars and Roman fleets lost in the punic wars from heavy storms (for example 364 quinquiremes in Sicily in 255BC and 100.000men-15% of the total army).

If fleets would travel just in summer at a more realistic rate (for example Alexandreia-Peiraeus) they should stay in a port other wise, if they survive from storms, they would need repairs (the annual upkeep cost-repairs,sailors salaries- of a trireme in Athens was one talant when building a new one would cost two). Repairs would cost to you...

NIKOMAHOS