Preview: The Boii (II)

[Power2the1]

Great as always.
So now the Boii are furnished with swordsmen of all kinds, missile troops, light and medium cavalry, and light spearmen, I guess what's missing is some equivalent of Teceitos.

Also, from what you wrote, I take it that the slingers will once again have the advantage of range and ammo over archers. But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

There are Celtic axe-club units in EB2. Not sure if these will be previewed as they are AOR units and not really factional.

Slingers may have had a shield, but its been brought out by Oudy in EBH that the Celtic shields do not have straps to the arms, and are held by the hand. To sling you needs a had to whirl the slings, and another to pick up the stones. If they had shields, they may have laid them down on the ground until they had to melee. That, or they did not carry one at all. Reliefs of Germans slingers also show no shields as well.

[Paltmull]

Beautiful! Nice to see some more pics of those gorgeous phalanxes too :)

[Andy1984]

The EB2-team has once more showed themselves worthy of their predecessing EB1-team.

[WinsingtonIII]

I'm loving the blowouts these guys have

How much hair gel did the average Celt go through?

[A Very Super Market]

Simply beautiful.

[darius_d]

very nice preview of two factions units actually. enjoyed a lot
now waiting for 3rd boii preview...

[-Praetor-]

very nice preview of two factions units actually. enjoyed a lot
now waiting for 3rd boii preview...

You won't have to wait long. We're preparing the 3rd boii preview as we speak, and it will show some of the most powerful celtic soldiers in our mod.

Basically, the last tier of units will eat you raw ingame.

[Cybvep]

EBII will be grand... I can feel it ;)

With each preview the mod is looking more and more promising, up to the point that currently I only fear three things:

1. Crappy AI which will ruin the whole experience, i.e. no challenge
2. Bland, gamey and simply boring MTW2 Vanilla UI. I hope it won't take too long to create new one.
3. "Weak" and quiet battle sounds of MTW2 Vanilla...

[Lvcretivs]

@Cybvep: 2. Replacement of the Vanilla UIs seems an issue the team has already proper taken care of - look at the provinces preview featuring screenshots of an obviously already integrated Hayasdan UI.

[Ptolemaios]

Good work! I really like what you guys created there, but stilll I have one question:

When e.g. the Kombaragoues fight they hold their shield horizontal and not upright like they do when they stand still, or other units with a same shaped shield do in EBI. I wonder if you did this on purpose, or if it is due to the M2TW engine?

[WinsingtonIII]

Good work! I really like what you guys created there, but stilll I have one question:

When e.g. the Kombaragoues fight they hold their shield horizontal and not upright like they do when they stand still, or other units with a same shaped shield do in EBI. I wonder if you did this on purpose, or if it is due to the M2TW engine?

I think they mentioned in the 1st Boii preview that this was simply an issue that had not been corrected yet but would be soon.

[Zradha Pahlavan]

It looks like the barbarians of Europe are going to be as gloriously represented as they ought to be.

[Trax]

By the way, at least one preview is missing from the "All the Previews in One Thread".

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...The-Sauromatae

Maybe it's not the only one.

[MeinPanzer]

Also, from what you wrote, I take it that the slingers will once again have the advantage of range and ammo over archers. But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

We don't have a huge amount of iconographic evidence pertaining to slingers, but what we do have makes it quite clear that it was not the norm for slingers of any culture in the ancient world to carry shields. In fact, there is only one known ancient depiction of a slinger with a shield, and that comes from Trajan's column.

[athanaric]

There are Celtic axe-club units in EB2. Not sure if these will be previewed as they are AOR units and not really factional.

Slingers may have had a shield, but its been brought out by Oudy in EBH that the Celtic shields do not have straps to the arms, and are held by the hand. To sling you needs a had to whirl the slings, and another to pick up the stones. If they had shields, they may have laid them down on the ground until they had to melee. That, or they did not carry one at all. Reliefs of Germans slingers also show no shields as well.

We don't have a huge amount of iconographic evidence pertaining to slingers, but what we do have makes it quite clear that it was not the norm for slingers of any culture in the ancient world to carry shields. In fact, there is only one known ancient depiction of a slinger with a shield, and that comes from Trajan's column.

Thanks for the answers What about written accounts though?
Also, this probably means that slingers will be largely without shields in EB II, and thus very vulnerable to archers?

[oudysseos]

Meinpanzer is correct- and it is my own private belief that the guy who carved that bit of Trajans column was not an eye-witness to slingers in battle. Anyway, it's a bit of a grey area for us in that it is totally possible for someone to carry a shield, drop it when using the sling, and pick it up again when not. The M2TW engine can't do this, so our thoughts are that "pure" slingers will mostly not have shields, but slinging units that have some melee capacity might get them. It's a compromise, and the best we can do.

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.

[moonburn]

Meinpanzer is correct- and it is my own private belief that the guy who carved that bit of Trajans column was not an eye-witness to slingers in battle. Anyway, it's a bit of a grey area for us in that it is totally possible for someone to carry a shield, drop it when using the sling, and pick it up again when not. The M2TW engine can't do this, so our thoughts are that "pure" slingers will mostly not have shields, but slinging units that have some melee capacity might get them. It's a compromise, and the best we can do.

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.

maybe a solution for it could be to use the code about the lances replenishment rate of knights from mtw2
if they are shooting their slings then they can´t have their shields for 15 seconds after they stoped shooting
if they are engaged in melee before they had their shields they can´t recover their shields until they disengage and wait for the 15 seconds before going into melee

but thats just me a total newb in programing presenting what is probably a very wierd solution :X

as for the boii i will probably give it a good try (thanks to these amazing previews and considering that the best crack end units haven´t even been presented yet) even tough i tend to deslike keltic factions for their low morale

[-Praetor-]

maybe a solution for it could be to use the code about the lances replenishment rate of knights from mtw2
if they are shooting their slings then they can´t have their shields for 15 seconds after they stoped shooting
if they are engaged in melee before they had their shields they can´t recover their shields until they disengage and wait for the 15 seconds before going into melee

but thats just me a total newb in programing presenting what is probably a very wierd solution :X

Care to explain further, please? This is interesting.

[Elmetiacos]

Very pretty - please remember that in all Celtic languages (including Noric, we presume) the adjective follows the noun and agrees with it, so Epatoi Londoi and Eporedoi Acues.

[Power2the1]

Very pretty - please remember that in all Celtic languages (including Noric, we presume) the adjective follows the noun and agrees with it, so Epatoi Londoi and Eporedoi Acues.

I agree with you. However, the examples in the Gallic dictionaries that I have (Delamarre, Savingnac, Lambert, Ellis, and Beaufort) do not show it that way *consistantly* at all, I see both ways presented, not sure why that is though. I see prefixes and suffixes switch around plenty with the determative compounds allowing for such things to happen, such as the first word determining the second, or vice versa. The dictionaries mention that the 'relationship' between the two words could be of many types and not formally incoded really, but I am not a native French speaker and none are in English, so I admit I might have mistranslated something, or took an English syntax view on something. Let me know.

For example, on passgae in Gaulish reads this:

Granno mo moi/Grannos my friend
Granno mon pouere/Grannos my father
Granno mo mouere/Grannos my mother

Could also read the opposite with: my father Grannos, my mother Grannos, my friend Grannos, and still be correct in meaning?

[B-Wing]

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.

A thought on this:
There was a thread on this forum with a question about why archers poisitioned on walls (during siege battles in M2TW) can't seem to aim down to shoot. It had something to do with the parapets on the outer edge of the walls being impossible to shoot through. So the archers would fire their arrows almost straight up into the air in order to cross it, which was horrible inaccurate. Anyway, one proposed solution was to limit the maximum vertical angle which archers can fire. I'm not certain, but I think this was simply a stat for each individual unit in the export_unit_description file.

To get to the point, perhaps you could do the same thing for slingers. Limit their upward firing angle to something more realistic so that they can't lob their stones too high in the air.

[oudysseos]

I'll look into that- but I'm not sure it solves the formation problem, i.e., guys in the ranks still shooting even though their comrades are in front of them. But thanks for the tip.

[Bucefalo]

I'll look into that- but I'm not sure it solves the formation problem, i.e., guys in the ranks still shooting even though their comrades are in front of them. But thanks for the tip.

I think there are here two different things that need to be explained apart.

One is that as oudysseos said, all the ranks of a unit can shoot in M2TW, i have no idea if it is possible to remove this. An example of this: take a unit of crossbowmen in M2TW, form them up in a deep formation with many ranks, and have them shoot. They won´t have any friendly fire among members of their own unit, and all crossbowmen will fire. The only idea that comes to my mind is to make the unit formation start with few ranks, as the ai is unlikely to change formations anyway. The player would have to house rule it to don´t change the formation to a deep one of course.

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else. You could base the slingers around the crossbowmen, and see if you can mimic the limited angle of the crossbowmen copying their values.

Sorry for the offtopic but i felt that needed some explanation, i hope it have been of some help.

[Moros]

I think there are here two different things that need to be explained apart.

One is that as Moros said, all the ranks of a unit can shoot in M2TW, i have no idea if it is possible to remove this. An example of this: take a unit of crossbowmen in M2TW, form them up in a deep formation with many ranks, and have them shoot. They won´t have any friendly fire among members of their own unit, and all crossbowmen will fire. The only idea that comes to my mind is to make the unit formation start with few ranks, as the ai is unlikely to change formations anyway. The player would have to house rule it to don´t change the formation to a deep one of course.

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else. You could base the slingers around the crossbowmen, and see if you can mimic the limited angle of the crossbowmen copying their values.

Sorry for the offtopic but i felt that needed some explanation, i hope it have been of some help.

I said what?

[Bucefalo]

Sorry, i meant to say oudysseus. I even quoted his post but somehow messed it up. My apologies to both of you.

[bobbin]

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else.

No i think you were right the first time, take a look at the data entries for descr_projectile and you will see mix and max angle of fire values.

projectile musket_bullet

effect					bullet_model_set
end_effect				bullet_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect			man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect    	bullet_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect		bullet_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect		man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect		bullet_impact_wall_set

damage		0
radius		0.11
mass		0.06
accuracy_vs_units		0.015
min_angle	-70
max_angle	70
velocity	80 105
display		aimed
effect_only

[Elmetiacos]

I agree with you. However, the examples in the Gallic dictionaries that I have (Delamarre, Savingnac, Lambert, Ellis, and Beaufort) do not show it that way *consistantly* at all, I see both ways presented, not sure why that is though. I see prefixes and suffixes switch around plenty with the determative compounds allowing for such things to happen, such as the first word determining the second, or vice versa. The dictionaries mention that the 'relationship' between the two words could be of many types and not formally incoded really, but I am not a native French speaker and none are in English, so I admit I might have mistranslated something, or took an English syntax view on something. Let me know.

For example, on passgae in Gaulish reads this:

Granno mo moi/Grannos my friend
Granno mon pouere/Grannos my father
Granno mo mouere/Grannos my mother

Could also read the opposite with: my father Grannos, my mother Grannos, my friend Grannos, and still be correct in meaning?

That looks to me like Late Latin or Early French with a personal name surviving from Gaulish - notice the word for father pouere (French père) has that PIE initial p- which Celtic lost early.

Compounds, occurring a lot in names, seem to confuse matters but don't really... where the word order seems to put the "adjective" first when you translate, it doesn't really, because these are actually compounds made up of a qualifying noun + noun. It's the same in modern Irish, which also puts adjectives after nouns, when you get a compound like leasmháthair (stepmother) The adjective still does follow the noun, in phrases or in compounds with noun + adjective - compare the personal names Adgennorixs "King of the lineage" and Anextlomaros "Great protector": the first one is two nouns, the second noun followed by adjective.

Having said that, there are probably a small handful of adjectives which do precede the noun, one of which is likely to be *seno- meaning "old" because both sean in Irish and hen in Welsh are unusual in doing this.

[Phalanx300]

You won't have to wait long. We're preparing the 3rd boii preview as we speak, and it will show some of the most powerful celtic soldiers in our mod.

Basically, the last tier of units will eat you raw ingame.

Nice, I gues the Gaesatae which were said to come? Just how diverse will they be :P.

[Cadwalader]

Damned good job as always. What did you promise the devil for him to teach you modding?

[-Praetor-]

The souls of everyone that download this mod.