It's Mel Gibson, it has to be racist.
Exegi monumentum aere perennius
Regalique situ pyramidum altius
Non omnis moriar
- Quintus Horatius Flaccus
That trope is old as hell.
Just look at this.
The latest example is probably Avatar. They were aliens, I know, but obviously they were completely based on American Indians. The chief sounded like he should be in a western film.
ξυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)
I recently saw How to Tame Your Dragon. Boy did they get that wrong.
1. Vikings with Scottish accents? At least some of the kids sounded like they were from Minnesota.
2. Horns on the helmets. I mean duh.
3. Dragon saddles were clearly La Tene. Also breast-cup/helmets possibly Wagnerian.
From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan
Jatte lambasts Calico Rat
Last edited by Badass Buddha; 05-26-2010 at 01:24.
You should realize that the only reason why Corezt was not slaughtered a few hours after his conflicts with the Aztecs started was the hatred every other civilization in the Region had for the Aztecs and their Human Sacrifices right? Even in the Cortez account it is clear that he was able to win only because of how hated the Aztecs were.
The "natives" are all white to, if you could show Captain Kirk reffering to white supremacy, or Spok discussing how superior some Human Races are to others you would have a much stronger case. Except for the original there are important non white characters, and even in the original it really takes a witch hunter to see rascism where there is none. The episodes range from encountering Gods, to a planet where the Roman Empire never fell.Hollywood loves white-guy intervention flicks anyway so its not like its the first time. Its like how Last Samurai required a white guy to make things reasonable. OR Dances with Wolves used a white-guy to help the Natives. OR Star Trek is always a bunch of white guys, coming in and fixing problems.
Granted they use the white-guy as a character that is relatable to the audience but its still...
You are on much firmer ground with the Last Samurai, and I would like to take your word for it on Dances with Wolves, but common you consider Captain Kirk a rascist figure?
We're not talking about the Aztecs. If Gibson wants to present the Aztecs as a violent, bloodthirsty society, I'd have nothing to say, because they were, sacrificing people in the tens of thousands, but the Maya only practiced human sacrifice on a scale similar to the Celts and Carthaginians.
To be fair, this is very doubtful. Modern historians think it might've been Roman propaganda.and Carthaginians.
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Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
That's true, I kinda lumped Star Trek in there for being similar in genre where its more of a ethnocentric view. In fact I think its more about ethnocentrism than anything like explicit racism now that I think about it. Its more about how Western Style culture and values is always the answer to problems. Sometimes it embodies itself into some sort of afformentioned 'White Savior' thing while other times like in Star Trek, a idealized Western Society cruises around space fixing everyone's problems. Granted that its not necessarily negative or offensive, its just somewhat arrogant. :-p
In fact most films like these just come off appearing a little arrogant in depicting the presence of westerners. If they were in fact explicitly racist well people would be up in arms.
I do likes the Star Trek though. Not really a TOS fan, just a TNG era minus Voyager fan.
Last edited by antisocialmunky; 05-26-2010 at 13:35.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
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Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
Hax very few modern historians dismiss the Carthaginian Child Sacrifices, they are actually confirmed by archaeology with the ancient literary sources. The few modern historians who do tend to either have a moralist agenda against what they percieve as pro-Roman bias (Terry Jones), or a nationalist agenda, but most accept the findings of archaeology and historical text. That doesn't paint nearly as bleak a picture as you think, Human Sacrifice doesn't automatically mean the massive large scale hate producing sacrifices of the Aztecs.
Agreed. Unfortunately I never managed to sit through Apoc, I know people who have, but I will take your word for it, especially since it is Mel Gibson.
I would say Start Trek's (original anyway) references are blatant enough to just be amusing (i.e. making Clingons (sp) the Soviet Union, and the Federation the West).
I also agree with you on more then I originally thought, I just initially noticed you putting Start Trek together with the Last Samurai.
Interestingly enough, while Westerners going into/joining other cultures is celebrated Hollywood ironically seems to have turned on Western Societies. Rome is usually depicted as extremely cruel, sadistic, misogynistic, evil, greedy and all other imperial vices without any real virtues. This could also just be a continuation of the Roman Vices tradition.
From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan
Jatte lambasts Calico Rat
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Finished essays: The Italian Wars (1494-1559), The siege of Buda (1686), The history of Boius tribe in the Carpathian Basin, Hungarian regiments' participation in the Austro-Prussian-Italian War in 1866, The Mithridatic Wars, Xenophon's Anabasis, The Carthagian colonization
Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
Nothing unfortunate about that.
The crowning example is The Omega Glory episode with the Khoms and Yangs.
It was Livy and Plutarch that wrote during three occassions in the second and third centuries BC a Greek man and woman and a Celtic man and woman would be buried alive in the forum. I don't remember why.
Diodorus Siculus mentioned Carthaginian human sacrifice in the third book of his Bibliotheca historica, as did the aformentioned Plutarch.
If I remember correctly, the Romans were not bothered so much by the infanticide as they were that it was being done for religious reasons, rather than practical economic reasons.
Did Jones mention Carthaginian child sacrifice in his documentary? He did not in the accompanying booklet. AFAIK the facts of the matter are this: no one disputes that the earlier Phoenician city states practised live child sacrifice. However, the only evidence for this practice during Roman times is a mention in a much later source and the presence of apparently healthy children in a special section of a Carthaginian graveyard. So the conclusion is that the Carthaginians probably did sacrifice children, but the evidence is not watertight.
And, as others have mentioned, live human sacrifice in one form or another was still a feature of most if not all Iron Age cultures. The Romans themselves sacrificed two couples after the disastrous defeats at Cannae and Aurausio. Gladiatorial fights also had a religious origin, although they ended up being entertainment (then again, from a modern perspective killing people for entertainment is as revolting, if not more, as killing them to appease the gods). I also suppose that the ritual strangulation of Vercingetorix after Caesar's triumph was a religious sacrifice. Was this a common feature of the triumphal processions?
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Last edited by Apázlinemjó; 05-27-2010 at 11:50.
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Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
Thank you BB for your sharper recollection. Wiki mentions the couples being killed after Cannae (my dim memory recalls some reference to the Sibylline books) , and the sacrifice was repeated in 113 BC before an invasion of Gaul.
So many wonderful (possibly fictional) episodes in Classical history. Hannibal has to be made, and it has to be made right.
From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan
Jatte lambasts Calico Rat
Because Hollywood thinks that the best villians are white people that have turned evil and use some random minority as their pawns against the hero white person and their minority side kick :-p. I jest of course, I think the racism discussion has pretty much run its course.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
"Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009
I agree, and about Rome's relationship to Human Sacrifice what appaled them wasn't that the Carthaginians were sacrificing first borns (Roman Law gives no priority to first born males), it was that it was done on a regular basis, and with the state being responsible instead of a last minute and last chance panick attack by what Rome saw as unwashed masses type, so for it to be ordered by a magistrate on a regular basis was what horrified Romans, and Greeks, not first born males being the victims.
The Romans made an absolute ban on Human Sacrifice surprisingly late in Republican History, and when it surprisingly gave amnesty. The Gladiator games could be considered the real Roman Human Sacrifices, but Gladiators didn't always die, and as Gladiator games became more and more common they lost their religious function and just became a disgusting display of brutality done on a massive scale. I know the ideology behind Gladiator games was taking the scum of society, making them face each other in virtuous combat in order to inspire virtue in others and giving them a chance of proving themselves/winning their freedom once they prove themself, but something tells me that was just an elaborate way to justify brutality, Romans did afterall have theatres and plenty of plays (still read and played out today).
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Finished essays: The Italian Wars (1494-1559), The siege of Buda (1686), The history of Boius tribe in the Carpathian Basin, Hungarian regiments' participation in the Austro-Prussian-Italian War in 1866, The Mithridatic Wars, Xenophon's Anabasis, The Carthagian colonization
Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
Well decide, man! If "western people" (what ever that might be in a historical context) do that, the sentence "NOBODY IS LIKE THAT" is wrong. I think this cruelty can be found in every civilisation,more or less institutionalised. Otherwise this sounds like a very romantic view of "non-western" societies.Finally, the Mayans’ attitude toward violence. Mayan society is portrayed as one of crazy sadists, lining up and cheering to watch people get ripped apart. NOBODY IS LIKE THAT. The only societies I can think of that relish watching people butcher each other so much are our Western ones.
@Carties infanticide: Can't find a source but I read that some of the childrens skeletons finds might be from already dead children...? Anyone knows about that?
Last edited by ziegenpeter; 05-29-2010 at 17:40.
"A wise man once said: Never buy a game full price!"
- Another wise man
I find that "no" hard to believe. Even societies where hunting was a privilege of the noble class (such as early modern Germany) had their share of illegal hunting going on. Not to mention gathering.
Agreed. Probably also part of what caused their downfall.The people’s total ignorance of the city. These people live a week’s march away from a major city and they’ve no idea it exists? The Maya were an urban civilization. You couldn’t get more than 10 miles away from a population center of decent size.
Typical Western self-centered attitude. You should perhaps visit some places in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East - they're no different in that respect.The only societies I can think of that relish watching people butcher each other so much are our Western ones.
[emphasis mine]but the message that the Maya were a savage, bloodthirsty, decadent civilization that needed to be saved by Western Christians seems racist to me.
Would you still consider it racist if the "ignorant Mayans" were saved by Western Muslims? Or Eastern Christians?
That's always a good way of testing your own attitude.
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