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Thread: Weaponary of Nusantara

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Weaponary of Nusantara

    Finally, the Malaka Sultanate is done (thx to all Kaskusers who help me complete this research!)

    Here's the most important writings that I've get!
    Kesultanan Melaka



    The arms which they ordinarily use in warfare are the sword, shield, lance, bows and arrows, and blow-pipes with poisoned darts. At the present day, in consequence of intercourse with us, they use muskets and ordnance.

    The sword, a blade measuring 5 palms in length, is called Padan (Pedang) among them: like the Turkish sword, it has a single edge. The dagger, called Cris (Keris) a blade measuring 2 palms in length, is made of fine steel; it bears a deadly poison; the sheath is of wood., the hilt is of animals' horn, or of rare stone, or of gold and precious gems.

    The steel is treated in such a way that every injury is followed by immediate death when the wound draws blood. Iron, being constituted of earthy material, and of a substance which is more malleable than other metals (as Aristotle notes Aleteorologica ch. 6. in 4 Meteorelogica, chapter 6) yields a large quantity of rust and dross. So the natives soak the iron in water and in muddy pools for some time: they then treat it in the fire, refining it till the iron is clean and pure - a method mentioned by Pliny in Book 34 chapter 14.

    Then, after polishing the blade of steel, they smear it with a poison so deadly that death soon ensues after any injury which draws blood, wherever inflicted.

    So these Malayos (Melayu) use much poison on all their weapons, especially the points of arrows, whether made of iron or wood, or the teeth of animals or fish, or of "nyboes " ('nibong').

    Their bows are larger than the bows of Persia.

    The lance called "azagaya " is 10 palms in length: these lances are much used as missiles.

    There are other lances, as much as 25 palms long: besides a great number of " soligues " made of " nyboes '' and used as missiles.

    Their artillery, as a rule, is not heavy: formerly they used mortars and swivel-guns made of various metals: to-day they employ larger pieces, and battery-cannon, besides many kinds of fire-arms, including small arms and arquebuses. Regarding the employment of artillery amongst the, Malayos, we know that on the conquest of Malaca in the year 1511, Affonco de Alboquerque captured much small artillery, esmerils, falconets, and medium-sized sakers: these could not have come from Mecca (Mekah) in Arabia where they use larger pieces of the second order, such as battery-cannon: probably these came from Pegu and Syam, where they had an establishment for casting smaller artillery, of the first order, and a foundry for every other kind of metal-work; this thev had learnt from the Attayos (Ayutthaya) and the Chinas (Ming Dynasty), who first introduced artillery, which was invented after the rebellions against the Empire of Attay or Cattay.



    - Godinho de Eredia -
    And about the guns before amassed contacts with Europeans:
    Bedil



    Bedil merujuk kepada semua jenis senjata api Melayu daripada yang kecil seperti pemuras sehingga kepada meriam agung.

    Orang-orang Melayu telah pun mengetahui ilmu bedil hasil dari hubungan dengan pedagang China, India dan juga Timur Tengah. Orang-orang Islam yang mengerjakan haji sudah pastinya terdedah kepada senjata api orang-orang Turki dan India. Pengetahuan mengenai senjata api ini bukan sahaja mengenai penggunaannya tetapi turut merangkumi mengenai cara membuatnya.

    Bukti mengenai kemahiran orang-orang Melayu menghasilkan senjata api diakui berdasarkan surat orang Portugis yang menyatakan terdapat lebih 8,000 meriam pelbagai laras digunakan ketika mempertahankan Melaka pada 1511.



    Antara jenis-jenis bedil yang digunakan oleh orang-orang Melayu adalah :-


    Bedil

    Pemuras / Istinggar / Tarkul / Senapang lantak / Karga / Ekor lotong


    Meriam

    Sri Patani (Patani) / Sri Nagara (Patani) / Mahalela (Patani) / Nang Liu-Liu (Patani) / Sri Negeri (Patani) / Lada Sicupak (Aceh) / Meriam Kampung Sungai Pinang (Kelantan) / Meriam Istana Balai Besar (Kelantan) / Badak Berendam (Kedah) / Katak Puru (Kedah) / Penggawa (Selangor) / Kota Lukut (Negeri Sembilan) / Lela / Rentaka / Lela Rambang / Tahan /

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Weaponary of Nusantara

    In this thread, we could posts and share about general weaponaries that depicted in the Nusantara : Total War. I will edit the first posts regularly and arrange the summations here, but feel free to give the pics and sources as reply.

    =================================================

    Type 1 : Spear weapons
    Spears in this mod will be depicted in three ways of handling:
    - standard underarm thrust (common for most levies, and generally less trained soldiers), they will have 0.13 lethality, and light_spear attribute.
    - overhead thrust (just like the hoplite style, used when they are used by trained soldiers of some sort, fought in tight well coordinated formation, or depicted carry their spears in such way), they will have 0.14 lethality, and light_spear attribute, in addition of shield_wall formations if not belong to skirmisher or light infantry class.
    - two handed thrust (you can guess that it will use two hands to manipulate the spear, this grip is common for almost all sections of warriors, that was either did not have shield or only small strapped shield (so they will naturally grip the spears with two hands), or having depicted doing that with two hands despite carrying a large shield.), they will have 0.145 lethality, and light_spear attribute, in addition, they will get +8 bonus against elephants.
    - pike (yes, this one is pikemen only), they will have 0.14 lethality (because heavy spear manipulation is rather cumbersome job), spear attribute, and will have only 1 charge value (even that was useless). In addition, they won't be packed as close as Makedonian phalangitai, instead, you can expect the pike formations will had some gaps and distances in this mod, because Pike formations could still be broken with furious, massive infantry charges from the front, but generally this tactics will still costs the attackers to got huge numbers of death tolls too. The reasons of the "spear" attribute was to tone down their kill rate against infantry, but give them more pushing powers. And as befitted of pike formations in this age, currently no pikemen unit will bear shields.

    Type 2 : Bladed weapons
    Swords / bladed weaponary in this mod will be depicted in 7 primary types:
    - shortsword (generally used with simple long knives, and crude blades, such as golok, or pedang pendek. Notice that we won't have dagger type weaponary depicted in this mod (because for a good Reasons, typical Indonesian houseknives that time was rather big variant, and no one will ignorant enough to carry only small knives to battle, when you could got a big one from your kitchen or backyard), they will have 0.13 lethality.
    - crude heavy blade (generally reserved for scythe variants (sabit/clurit), that was short), they will have 0.11 lethality (due to their cumbersomeness and unreliability over prolonged fight), and they got ap attributes as well.
    - heavy cutting blade (reserved for heavy slashing blades, such as kukri (envolved kopis, coming from india), as well as hoes and spades (pacul dan sekop)), they will have 0.14 lethality, and they got ap attributes.
    - stabbing blades (keris, kujang, and various "reputedly sacred or prestiged" blades, used primarily for stabbing), they will have 0.145 lethality, gladius animations, and have unusually high damage, compared to other weapons (because the owner will be at considerable skill to posess such weapons).
    - scimitars (dao, klewang, and arab scimitars), they will have 0.205 lethality.
    - longswords (european longswords, keris panjang, parang, mandau, etc long blades), they will have 0.225 lethality.
    - double swords (each in right and left hands), because the lethality/damage in RTW is fixed in one line of EDU, they will have 0.275 lethality.
    - dual handed swords (hold in two hands), every sword like weapons that hold in two hands. They will have 0.3 lethality, as well as ap attributes. In addition to that bonus, they will also got +4 bonus vs horse.

    Type 3 : axes and maces
    The reason of this weaponaries counted as one is because they share two important things, they are expected to go cheaper than their sword counterparts with the same performance, and they all will have ap attributes.
    - axe (indonesian war axes usually had some kind of spearhead mounted on top of it). They will have 0.165 lethality, and ap attributes, in addition of that, they will have +8 bonus against chariots (because choppin the chariots will be easy job)
    - mace (just like the middle eastern styled maces, or Indian styled maces used by Javanese army). They will have 0.165 lethality, and ap attributes.
    - sledgehammer (like one who use blunt iron staff or some really heavy two handed hammer (palu perang), ap attributes, they will have 0.35 lethality, but much lower damage.
    - two handed axes (yeah, that things again, don't forgot that they have some kind of spear tip too). They will have 0.285 lethality, with ap attributes. They also got +4 bonus vs horse.
    - halberds (halberds and every - in formation polearm), they will use 2 animations, first the 2 handed spearmen animations, and later 2 handed axemen animations. They all will have ap, the first will have 2 handed spears animation (with light_spear) so they could be used to absorb cavalry charge pretty nicely, but their second weaponaty will be treated like two handed axemen (with no light_spear) and you could expect them goin choppin business against infantry too. They will have 0.27 lethality, as well as AP attributes.

    Type 4 : Javelins
    Javelins are not particularly popular weapons in this timeframe, but many important units wield javelins to soften enemy formation before the charge, and those who had homeland covered with swapy forests, often had javelins in their side.
    - normal "indonesian javelins" (The Indonesian "Lembing" is actually somewhat falls between the category of "darts" and "javelins". Lembing are usually made from light bamboo tubes, about 1.3 or 1.4 m long, and have simple sharpned heads... usually made from either soft iron, or sharpned hardwood (to act as weight center). They are far lighter than most other type of weapons, but have considerably high range, because they are lightweight, and they could be carried in rather large numbers, especially when the javelineers mount a horse, they are usually stored at the side of the saddle. Each pouch could carry up to 7 javelins (means the infantry javelinners could carry as much as 7, and mounted could carry as much as 14). They will have +11 attack vs elephants, and +11 attack vs chariots, as well as relatively high damage.
    - spears for thrown and melee (not depicted in Portuguese Invasion, because this was actually err... east Indonesians... kalimantan, sulawesi, moluccas, and papuan warrior's weapon), this will rather looks like Romaioi pilum in game statistic depictions), they will have AP attributes, but planned to have lesser bonus vs elephants and chariots. Unlike lembing, tombak dayak, and the like, was heavier weapons, and will come in fewer numbers, but in the other hand, they are far better made than lembing, and expected to have repeated use.

    Type 5 : Bow+Arrows+Guns
    Archers are the most common type of levies in Indonesia, but not necessarily the most numerous. Thanks to the abundance of bamboo for the body, and flax / silk rope used for the string, even the lowest peasants could be given a rather cheap bows, and sent them to pepper the enemy with considerable sucess. But, you must know that in Indonesia, most arrows are rather... sightly backward in technology, many arrows are just simple sharpened metal piece, tied to a bamboo stick. Better arrows DID exist, but they were generally reserved for career soldiers and nobles, so we'll have some kind of arrows. While the damage will be a bit similar, they differ in accuracy, and flaming arrows capability
    *. BOWS
    - Crude Bamboo Flatbows, they will have the worst range and pernetation power, but they are dirt cheap and you could expect full manned peasant units (120 on large) using this kind of bows.
    - Recurved Bamboo Flatbows, they have less pernetation power than composite, but they generally have on par with the range.
    - Wooden longbows (selfbow), used by regional units that was known to specifically employ wooden longbows instead of bamboo one, they are reputedly better than bamboo, having great pernetation power, but at the cost of range.
    - Composite Bows, they are the best bows available, but they are quite expensive
    *. ARROWS
    - Crude bamboo arrows = non flammable, and quite inaccurate, most levies use this.
    - Bamboo War Arrows = common to be found on better trained soldiers, they are sightly inaccurate, but flammable.
    - Lacquered arrows = have top accuracy, but unflammable.
    *. Crossbows and Guns are basically armour piercing, high damage missile
    - Crossbow = have flat trajectory, rather medium damage, and AP attribute, they had quite good accuracy
    - Gun, levies = have high damage, ap, but low range and inaccurate
    - Gun, regular = higher damage, ap, medium range, and sightly inaccurate
    - European sharpshooter musket = top damage, ap, high range, and accurate, they are crack expensive though

    -- reserved ---
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 05-20-2010 at 14:07.

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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    whoo, second post. Congratulations on your subforum!
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 05-19-2010 at 21:47.
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    Member Member Rahwana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    yeah, don't forget to wrote down our missile researches too... you won't doin a better things to wake me up this midnight..
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    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Why would a short sword/stabbing sword have low lethality? Stabbing is much more lethal than slashing. Only problem is getting to hit them with the short sword, as it's small compared to a large sword.

    European sword I can understand .225, as by this time the Europeans had mastered making the arming sword (middle age "longsword")

    Scimitars are an interesting case...they're faster to wield than longswords, but it's hard to represent this without giving all weapons a delay larger than 0. Instead, this could be applied as a defense bonus.

    Why are maces so lethal? Sure they were like that in EB, but that doesn't make much sense. The force is easy to hit through armour and shields with, but hard to kill with, except on the head. So I'd suggest high attack, low lethality (.13, maybe?)

    I love what you did with the halberd. Essentially, it's worse than a 2h axe against infantry, but better against cavalry, and functions as a sick anticav weapon. So, light_spear and two modes of use.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-19-2010 at 23:39.
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    Member Member Rahwana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    we've doing some tests (in several modified vailla custom battles by lan), using some EB statistics as the base, and come into a conclusion that low lethality - high damage is one that suits better for almost exclusively "stabbing" weapons (notice that even while we use EB statistics as the basis of our statistics, the animation we had permission to use are Signifier one's animation pack, and we plan to fill the rest of uncovered animation by taking from Wlesmana's animation pack for LOTR-TW, it have several difference namely stabbing gladius animation is much2 more effective than EB's stabbing gladius animation, and pike animation originally for uruk pikes are somewha slower)

    1) stabbing sword is less lethal because the fs_s1_gladius is comparably fast, and made them high damage will got the job better compared than low damage high lethality (keris and kujang are supposed to be heavy built and poisoned too, that way, tha should be still effective to use on high defense enemies.
    2) scmitars is definitely long and quite deadly blade, but accounts and historical evidence did shown that arabic scimitars empolyed by turkish and arab mercenaries still lose against keris panjang, parang, and european longswords, so they will got same animation (RTW standard fs_swordsmen), but scimitars got less lethality.
    3) maces are not lethal? maybe you're right in the case of arabian khuyad maces employed by Acehnese and several muslim religious warriors, but that was definitely not in the case of Jawa-Sundanese maces (that have big round tip, very heavy, and reputed to break bones by just single swing of blow - I know historical resources may exgregate the skills of the warriors, but once you saw the mace example in the museum... you'll wonder, how can such weapons wielded by 1 hand at the past?)
    Last edited by Rahwana; 05-20-2010 at 02:00.
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    U14 Footballer Member G. Septimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    whoa,
    if it's about the guns, Napoleonic Team Members can help.
    Try to get to one of them, through PM
    well, congragulations, and Thank You Tosa...............

    3) maces are not lethal? maybe you're right in the case of arabian khuyad maces employed by Acehnese and several muslim religious warriors, but that was definitely not in the case of Jawa-Sundanese maces (that have big round tip, very heavy, and reputed to break bones by just single swing of blow - I know historical resources may exgregate the skills of the warriors, but once you saw the mace example in the museum... you'll wonder, how can such weapons wielded by 1 hand at the past?)
    Really?
    *checks at the Museum
    yeah, your right,
    Last edited by G. Septimus; 05-20-2010 at 02:10.
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    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Breaking bones does not mean insta-kill. It means breaking bones.

    It's easy to deal damage to the body with thanks to its massive force. It's not as LETHAL, as in it's blows aren't as likely to cause death. That doesn't mean they can't do massive trauma. A mace is not as likely to kill on a hit as a spear. That's what lethality means, no?

    Breaking bones can be as good as killing, but it isn't actually killing the enemy.

    Scimitars are designed for use against less armoured warriors. They're faster than longswords - I wasn't saying that they'd beat a longsword in a fight.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-20-2010 at 03:07.
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    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    1) stabbing sword is less lethal because the fs_s1_gladius is comparably fast, and made them high damage will got the job better compared than low damage high lethality (keris and kujang are supposed to be heavy built and poisoned too, that way, tha should be still effective to use on high defense enemies.
    The reason it's comparably fast is because it's easier to stab with a shortsword than swing with a longsword. It's still highly lethal thanks to stabbing. However, it's harder to hit with thanks to its short length.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-20-2010 at 03:25.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    interesting points gamegeek ... perhaps you could look at this sheet of Sonic (and mine), and maybe could help with some suggestions? Note: about the over-lethality of mace... hmm... I think that will be no difference someone fainted because broken ribs, or dead because broken heads, at least they can't fight in that battle anymore.

    Actually, the last modification in Sunda Army (and perhaps some Sriwijayan and European), was fully done by me (alone testing the stats in 2 computers by lan)... Sonic actually grumbled that I made too many 2HP units on Sundanese unit rooster... this is the spreadsheet file for counting the unit cost, but it contains most EDU varables, except ground types of course
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attac...8&d=1274075768

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    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    2hp units + slow EB combat system? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me...

    My point is - still, are you more likely to be taken out from a spear hit or a mace hit, assuming they both get past whatever armour's there? The mace has an easier time getting around the armour, but which one's more likely to take you out of comission?

    Also, considering the inadequate healing system (it's based on who gets killed first, not what killed them) - it's hard to represent the difference between a guy disabled and a guy killed (unless they send him home of course).
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-21-2010 at 06:05.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    And what about 2 hp for some elite army and heavy euro units? I know the exgregation may took place in historical account, but the kill-death rate in native regulars vs elites, or vs well equipped europeans... Are simply too much, in all historical account, story of JP Coen led mere 4 or 5 hundreds of dutchmen (without local allies because that was an ambush) against more than 2.5 thousand joint javanese-banten army is real thing, because both euro and javanese accounts told almost the same thing. Of course, dutch win by formin a circle of pikes and halberds as soon as possible (phalanx noob box - if it was eb mp, im sure the javanese-banten army will quit), but it was their swordsmen charge who win the day.

    Edit : that numbers come from european memoir that said 4 hundred merchantmen with 1 hundred guardsmen along with governor general was ambushed by about 4 thousands of well armed local army. The javanese wrote that 4 hundred dutch demons led by jp coen formed a circle of spears and defeat 2500 strong soldiers (actually they said prajurit, which implies that they are indeed regulars) by exhausting them, charge with swords and hack the line, only 1 out of 10 javanese soldiers was able to flee with their life. I personally think that even when most of the local soldiers obligingly thrown themself in front of the pikes, at least the dutch elites must have some better skill at close combat, unless they are really demons.
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 05-21-2010 at 12:29.

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    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Of course. Against an unarmoured infantry opponent, swords are probably the best weapon you could have for individual combat, and the European arming sword was a masterpiece - well balanced and excellent for both thrusting and slashing. No wonder their swordsmen were so effective.

    What is the european armour here? I can think up some sort of armour/defense system that might help.
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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post
    Of course. Against an unarmoured infantry opponent, swords are probably the best weapon you could have for individual combat, and the European arming sword was a masterpiece - well balanced and excellent for both thrusting and slashing. No wonder their swordsmen were so effective.

    What is the european armour here? I can think up some sort of armour/defense system that might help.
    nah, javanese and banten army aren't bunch of unarmoured peasants, they (the muslim army) actually worn some arab styled chainmail, helmets, and some lesser soldiers will worn leather breastplate and arm-leg protector. The front ranks is heavy infantry will carry curved sword (either parang or scimitar) and round shield, while the rest (who worn leather armour), will carry big spear (tombak), and several javelins (lembing).

    The eropeans usually worn cuirass breastplate, and comb morion helmets, but they also recorded to use metal arm protector, and even some still (depicted in art( worn full body closed plate armour.

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    I just re tested the stats yesterday, using placeholder models from vanilla with signifier1 anim, but now, im takin cannons and catapult into consideration. Well, the 2hp units always got an upper hand in melee, and was hell to fought against (but still defeatable with proper tactics). In other words, i think, the only practical way to defeat them was vs other elites, or use your artilery, which was completely historical. I also think to made certain melayu-aceh unit as 2hp unit, the elite mariners or palace guards is the best candidate, since aceh and melaka lack strong individual combat unit (their strength was actually disciplined formations and artilerry), maybe sonic or intifadanyz could made the choice?

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    Member Member Rahwana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    I think you should give the "Elite Mariner" type units 2 HP, as they would be more battle hardned, and more martial prowess, compared to those pampered out Palace guards and Nobles. And about the Acehnese, you could let them share the Elite mariners too... but don't forgot to tweak down their morale so they could still defeatable by tactics...
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  17. #17
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    some picture might help.

    this is weapon for Pajajaran captain.


    Pedang and Golok. (both for dual wield version)


    greatsword.


    Kujang Ciung(for Pajajaran FM)

  18. #18
    國王陛下 Member Nyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    The great sword is as tall as human... it is like Kurosaki Ichigo from Bleach Anime sword....

    Well, I have to visit Military Museum in Port Dickson to take pictures of Malay Firearm... (an hour driving from my home)
    Last edited by Nyz; 05-22-2010 at 16:23.

  19. #19
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Quote Originally Posted by intifadanyz View Post
    The great sword is as tall as human... it is like Kurosaki Ichigo from Bleach Anime sword....
    its Zangetsu when he visit Indonesia!

    btw, when Sonic visit Museum Geologi, where the hell is Pajajaran related item??? I only see rocks and bones there. or is it Sri Baduga Museum?
    Last edited by plutoboyz; 05-22-2010 at 16:30.

  20. #20
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    hmm... so? perhaps "pendekar" unit could be shared between Jawa and Sunda? (BTW, so I could change Jawara unit to carry something else than swords), because great 2 handed swords is common weapon in Jawa... or should I made jawara exact clone of Pendekar with 2 handed swords?

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  21. #21
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    hmm... so? perhaps "pendekar" unit could be shared between Jawa and Sunda? (BTW, so I could change Jawara unit to carry something else than swords), because great 2 handed swords is common weapon in Jawa... or should I made jawara exact clone of Pendekar with 2 handed swords?
    no, no. don't do that. that weapon is just "Pusaka" not used in battle. the one used in battle is smaller version. but its shaped like that.
    is your "pendekar" used something like this?

  22. #22
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    yupz, the great 2 handed keris... that one that Arya kamandanu and most pendekar in the movie use...
    that was really historical reason behind it... someone that could use 1.5 m blade easily is someone that must be really respected...

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  23. #23
    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    yupz, the great 2 handed keris... that one that Arya kamandanu and most pendekar in the movie use...
    that was really historical reason behind it... someone that could use 1.5 m blade easily is someone that must be really respected...
    but someone using smaller keris far more respected.

  24. #24
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Remember, in field battle, pendekar (and another orang berilmu) often got frontal position, and tasked to break up enemy formations as shock troopers, and they did have gaint 2 handed keris at their disposal (carried at the back when they are goin in adventure / berkelana). Smaller blades are used as backup and ceremonial equipments.

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    Just finished the battle balance tests, comparing gamegeek's advice (largely increase stabbing sword lethality and reducing damage, reducing mace lethality and increasing damage), with standard EB system, and Satalexton's advice (from our last chat how to portay romans as 'lings, but still give good challanges, give stabbing sword more damage, keep the lethality as before, let mace and axe as they are now, but consider heavy slashing blades to have higher lethality)... and compare with the actual desired result of battle.

    1) gamegeek's advice : stabbing swords kill through lesser units easily (give them 0.17 lethality, reduce damage by 2), and mace have harder time to kill (reduce the lethality to 0.13, increase damage by two), I must admit that was pretty realistic... but that cause stabbing swords (which was not ap), to be somewhat less useful against higher level infantry, and more missed thrust of spears, that don't knock the enemy down. giving them lower damage also made them easily beaten by scimitars and longswords guy (who often had high defense).

    2) satalexton's advice : keep the stabbing swords 0.145, but raise their damage by 4, keep mace as usual, and give heavy ap slashing blade the properties of mace (just more expensive)... the result is, the stabbing blades become muc more effective against high defense units, but not as good against low levy spams, the slashing blades now just as badass as axes, but that start to give some problem with cost balancement.....

    anymore suggestions?

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  26. #26
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    I'll work on a full-blown stat overhaul proposal. Of course, you can make as many corrections as you like. I would prefer stabbing swords to be .2 lethality.

    Personally, I think a delay system would be useful.

    Do you have any sort of heavy cavalry? Lancers, etc?
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-30-2010 at 20:40.
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    Sang Hulu Jurit Balamati Member plutoboyz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    anyone know what kind of attack that rattan shield mostly work? it used by Pajajaran, Aceh and Malaka army
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    the picture is Aceh shield

    and regarding the stabbing sword, how about using gamegeek2's advice with damage raised a bit?

    @ gamegeek2: there is some cata used by Javanese army. and Lancer? many. even we have Skirmisher lancer

  28. #28
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    the stabbing swords are used as holder, not offensive parts of the collumn formation.... (still working on the battle simulation, now on campaign phase) - soon, I'll relase my map along with placeholder models and overall battle system...

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  29. #29
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara


    My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
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  30. #30
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponary of Nusantara

    My proposal will be up soon.
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