Rape by deception

[Lemur]

This is an interesting case coming out of Israel: Man claims to be Jewish single, sleeps with Jewish woman. Turns out he's an Israeli Arab. Court convicts him of rape by deception.

Similar cases: Man says he's a neurosurgeon, but he ain't. Convicted of fraud. Man claims he's with the housing board and can get a better apartment for woman. He isn't and he can't. Convicted of rape. Details:

In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.

I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.

[Martok]

I actually posted this story in another forum a few days ago. I would say I'm more than merely "disturbed"; I'm outright appalled.

Don't get me wrong: I think a man lying in the furtherance of getting laid is reprehensible at best. But while I do think it's morally & ethically wrong, I don't think it should necessarily be illegal. IMO, this is one of those things that are best punished via social sanction; the courts have no business getting involved.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Disturbing is the right word for it.

To all intents and purposes the women choose to have sex with these men, there was nothing that forced them to do that. They choose to do so because of the identity of these men, and the identity happens to be fake; but that does not make this rape, it is something else (fraud).

[Beskar]

I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.

It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.

Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".

However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.

Ultimately it is 'meh'

[Skullheadhq]

Why did she have sex with him in the first place?

Because she liked him. Because she was attracted to him. Because she liked his character. Race doesn't magically change this fact, nor does profession. This is not love, this is more of selective breeding. Jews should know better with this racism and where this could lead to, but apparantly it's much more comfortable on the other side of the racism-stick.

This is not the only thing Israel has done in the race-field, not too long ago they outlawed interracial (Jew-Arab) marriage on the argument that Israel should remain a Jewish state. Blut und Bodem anyone?

Rape is force, there was no force involved so there was no rape, the only thing he could be convicted of is lying, and AFAIK lying is not a crime.

I'd like to know what Frag thinks about this, considering that he's pro-Israel.

[rory_20_uk]

Man meets woman in a bar. They go and have intercourse.

Turns out she's got a kid, dyed her hair and was wearing a Wonderbra.

I guess he was raped too..? Oh, but for some reason it never is quite the same the other way around.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.

Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".

However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.

Ultimately it is 'meh'

No it is in no way "meh"! Please see below for why:

This is an interesting case coming out of Israel: Man claims to be Jewish single, sleeps with Jewish woman. Turns out he's an Israeli Arab. Court convicts him of rape by deception.

Similar cases: Man says he's a neurosurgeon, but he ain't. Convicted of fraud. Man claims he's with the housing board and can get a better apartment for woman. He isn't and he can't. Convicted of rape. Details:

In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.

I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.

There are two deeply disturbing facts about this case:

1. Both the "rape by deception" and "fraud" cases assume something about a woman's consent to sexual congress, namely that it is a commodity which is always paid for. Look at the words of the judge; his judgement clearly indicates that the man is being convicted for being un able to deliver his end of the bargain, and therfore enshrines is law the concept that "rape" is a form of theft, that it is sex without "paying". From this it naturally follows that:

1a: Legal sexual intercourse involves the man paying the woman an agreed amount in goods/services/prestige.

1b: If a man does not pay it is always "rape" even without force.

1c: Men always pay women for sex.

1d: All women are whores.

I said there were two things, "2", is that this is not a Torric (unsure of adjective here) concept, and what the judge actually seems to be applying here is the a medieval Christian principle of "rapax", where rape is just theft. the Torah would seem to be quite clear on the subject, in that a woman cannot bring a rape case after the fact against a man if they had sex in a populated area because, so the Leviticus says, she should have screamed bloody murder at the time.

So, basically, Israel has devolved to the worst form of western Mysogony without even any form of Scriptural restraint, justification, or excuse.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@PVC: except that the “fraud” case has a different component to it. Namely that of abusing the good faith of others. Also fraud is not limited to a more elaborate form of theft, either: and false identities fall under this broader definition of fraud.

Consequentially I think that ruling should be seen simply as affirming that the fake neurosurgeon has abused the good faith of the plaintiff (the woman, presumably) and therefore should be punished accordingly. The verdict is a matter of case law, so it takes the closest well-defined legal concept as model on which to build; which in this case was deemed (by the court) to be fraud.

[Hosakawa Tito]

If they're jumping into the sack before they actually really know who he is, hoping for some kind of "gain"... caveat emptor baby.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

@PVC: except that the “fraud” case has a different component to it. Namely that of abusing the good faith of others. Also fraud is not limited to a more elaborate form of theft, either: and false identities fall under this broader definition of fraud.

Consequentially I think that ruling should be seen simply as affirming that the fake neurosurgeon has abused the good faith of the plaintiff (the woman, presumably) and therefore should be punished accordingly. The verdict is a matter of case law, so it takes the closest well-defined legal concept as model on which to build; which in this case was deemed (by the court) to be fraud.

You're missing the point though; that Fraud requires one to be defrauded of something. Fraud is a form of theft, but it uses a trick rather than a stick to take that thing from you. That means that the woman's consent to sexual congress can be "stolen", ergo it is a commodity which can be traded.

You're also wrong in that Fruad is not the closest model, there is a direct law which is applicable here, perjury, the bearing of false witness. That is a criminal offense for which he can be commissioned, and for which the "victim" can be compensated without making her consent part of a goods exchange.

Perjury is really badly ignored in the West (and hence in Israel, it would seem). It's applicable in all sorts of cases, including marital infidelity, for which it is never applied.

[Husar]

It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.

Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".

However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.

Ultimately it is 'meh'

Absolutely agree.
It sounds like the women just do it to get some advantage over others/bragging rights, that's not rape, that is the eomen making an uninformed decision (informed would be them checking the guy out first, for example by getting to know him better).
Most people try to make themselves look good or better for the first few dates, if you're poor but wearing an armani suit(that you saved money for) and a woman has sex with you because you look rich, is that also rape by deception?
This is a very stupid law IMO.

[HoreTore]

WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?

I'm no longer allowed to brag a little to impress the ladies?? Come on, who doesn't add an extra inch when they're drunk?!?

And can we call rape on push-up bras too??

[Skullheadhq]

And can we call rape on push-up bras too??

Yes, in Israel you can, unless they have separated laws for men and women, which wouldn't suprise me at all.

OT: Was there any event where a man was raped by a woman and he reported it to the police? Or does rape only apply to men?

[Fragony]

WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?

I'm no longer allowed to brag a little to impress the ladies?? Come on, who doesn't add an extra inch when they're drunk?!?

And can we call rape on push-up bras too??

What to do with this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpwAtnywTk

[Tellos Athenaios]

You're missing the point though; that Fraud requires one to be defrauded of something. Fraud is a form of theft, but it uses a trick rather than a stick to take that thing from you. That means that the woman's consent to sexual congress can be "stolen", ergo it is a commodity which can be traded.

As far as I am aware fraud in its broadest sense is the deception to gain something or damage another, but it does not need to involve “stealing from another” as such. (For instance the objective of fraud could be to bring another person into disrepute; or the objective of fraud could be to bolster credentials.)

You're also wrong in that Fruad is not the closest model, there is a direct law which is applicable here, perjury, the bearing of false witness. That is a criminal offense for which he can be commissioned, and for which the "victim" can be compensated without making her consent part of a goods exchange.

Perjury is really badly ignored in the West (and hence in Israel, it would seem). It's applicable in all sorts of cases, including marital infidelity, for which it is never applied.

No it isn't. Perjury is highly specific to (sworn) oaths, and similar legal obligations. This requires of course two things: (a) that the oath is (legally) binding, (b) that an oath was made. (A) Is problematic because in many countries quite a few forms of spoken agreements have no legal bearing, especially not without a witness. (B) Did the fake neurosurgeon actually *swear* he was a neurosurgeon or did he merely chat up the women by *telling* he was a neurosurgeon. Quite a difference, and in the latter case you'll find perjury extremely hard to prove, regardless of (A).

With the increased literacy, perjury is simply displaced by breach of contract.

[HoreTore]

OT: Was there any event where a man was raped by a woman and he reported it to the police? Or does rape only apply to men?

Happens from time to time, but due to the physical differences(a penis needs to be aroused to function, while it's quite possible to have sex with an unconcious woman) it doesn't happen very often.

[Skullheadhq]

a penis needs to be aroused to function

I am happy you have such a great penis-control and can only get an erection on command, some people don't sadly. But do you have a link to a newspaper site mentioning this kind of rape, or is this not interesting enough for the media?

[naut]

Simply put: that's retarded. That's an ethical issue, not a legal issue for starters. And secondly, it should be up to the woman to discern for herself whether, yes this guy's legit or no this guy is a lier who is trying to get in my pants. I mean when did Israel become a "leftie multi-culturalist nanny-state"?

[rory_20_uk]

Happens from time to time, but due to the physical differences(a penis needs to be aroused to function, while it's quite possible to have sex with an unconcious woman) it doesn't happen very often.

Getting a penis erect is merely a mechanical feedback and does not require arousal.

[HoreTore]

I am happy you have such a great penis-control and can only get an erection on command, some people don't sadly. But do you have a link to a newspaper site mentioning this kind of rape, or is this not interesting enough for the media?

Getting a penis erect is merely a mechanical feedback and does not require arousal.

On the penis thingy; I meant of course that the penis needs to be erect, which limits the possibility of a rape somewhat.

As for sources, no I don't have any on hand, but it's mentioned in the paper from time to time. One case I remember was when a woman performed oral sex on a sleeping man. She was convicted as well.

But on a related note, Aftenposten had a 5-page article on women who beat their men a week ago.

[Skullheadhq]

As for sources, no I don't have any on hand, but it's mentioned in the paper from time to time. One case I remember was when a woman performed oral sex on a sleeping man. She was convicted as well.

She can do it to me, I won't complain ;)

[Cute Wolf]

oh stupid things happened everywhere in the world.... if Israel justice system is good, that clever men should go unpunished, as my friend did ....

[HoreTore]

She can do it to me, I won't complain ;)

When you grow up, you might

[Skullheadhq]

oh stupid things happened everywhere in the world.... if Israel justice system is good, that clever men should go unpunished, as my friend does ....

Israel is an Apartheid state, it's that if you're a jew, you go unpunished. Just like South-Africa from '48-'94, but this time some see the Jews as victims, and Apartheid as necessary. But your friend would have been thrown in jail, unless he's a jew that is.

[Cute Wolf]

Israel is an Apartheid state, it's that if you're a jew, you go unpunished. Just like South-Africa from '48-'94, but this time some see the Jews as victims, and Apartheid as necessary. But your friend would have been thrown in jail, unless he's a jew that is.

yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas....

[HoreTore]

yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas....

Then he could form an Israeli Bohemian Refugee Orchestra!

[Skullheadhq]

yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas....

Oh you evul terrurist! With this kind of words you'll lure the war on terror to Indonesia.

PS: Do you (still) have oil in Indonesia? This is a must, or the bait won't work. With a bit of luck they'll only free the **** out of Atjeh

[Cute Wolf]

Oh you evul terrurist! With this kind of words you'll lure the war on terror to Indonesia.

PS: Do you (still) have oil in Indonesia? This is a must, or the bait won't work. With a bit of luck they'll only free the **** out of Atjeh

I don't meant I support hamas, you allready know that I was the opposite one ... I actually meant that if he want to stay out of multiple years in jail just because banging some lady... he should do something to run away.... umm... in the other hands, we also didn't have any diplomatic relations to Israel, so he could always considering flee to Indonesia or Malaysia

ADD : oh yeah, we still have oils, but that doesn't meant you could take it... and you know better about Atjeh problems... they done that since medieval times! wait for the next preview of Sultanate of Atjeh factions, and you will see they allready have "half suicide" units far before middle eastern one do this!!!

[tibilicus]

Some of you might be interested in reading what the Arab involved has to say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ception-charge

[Cute Wolf]

Some of you might be interested in reading what the Arab involved has to say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ception-charge

basically one thing could be said, sexual relations outside marriage are highly potent to gave some problems later...