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Thread: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

  1. #1
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Hi, I thought of posting this thread in order to ask, could there be something Org could do to better serve the needs of MP community,Clans and individual players? Could we create any features.forums etc. that would be helpfull? If you have any ideas, those are more then wellcome.
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    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Kage after spending a fair few minutes reading a pointless thread in another TW Forum where they couln't comprehend why we could possibly need a separate MP forum for Shogun prior to release this is a breath of fresh air.

    Andres posted a fair few good points which I've copied over some are already covered.

    Things that pop in to mind:

    - to already work on the organisation of the MP community, i.e. gathering clan leaders to work on projects like tournaments or general chitchat on how to do things (MP community events?);
    - discussing MP related issues - making suggestions: balancing, chat foyer, unit stats, interesting maps,stuff to prevent cheating;
    - better in a seperate forum so the discussion can go deeper;
    - to build on the "community feeling", playing MP is a "social event", so to speak, so it can only benefit the community if people can already get to know each other better;

    Recruitment may be another one although it probably is a little bit early atm.

    :P
    Last edited by Sp00n; 09-02-2010 at 11:07.
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Something that is already possible now, is creating social groups.

    I don't know a lot of the MP community, but I figure something like a social group for clan leaders only could be very useful.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Sp00n thank you for your ideas.More we know about your needs, better we can develop the forum.
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    The Abominable Senior Member Fall Down Champion, Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sp00n View Post
    Recruitment may be another one although it probably is a little bit early atm.
    Mentioned this elsewhere and privately, but I am gonna say it here so it's as out as possible. I don't have any problems running clan recruitment articles for the front page. If you'd like to advertise with us, send me a PM and I can make it happen.

    If clans take advantage of this, what is likely to happen is I'll group all ads together to be posted on the same day (maybe once a week or as needed).

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    I already told Tomisama in private, but might as well throw this out in the open. We can also publish articles about tournaments, competitions and other MP events on our frontpage; so by all means, if you have TW MP news that needs to be spread, just say the word. Not just for S2 TW MP, but all TW MP news.

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    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    TBH guys looking at the NTW Multiplayer section its got most of what I'd expect we need for Shogun 2, I'm sure Clan Leaders and other Multi Players have stuff to add though.

    From my point of view I always used theorg as the place to get my MP news, patches and latest maps in Shogun and MTW MP days. The frontpage had all the latest news SP and MP wise and tournys were advertised. Pretty much what Andres is talking about above.

    Not sure if we'll have all these options due to how NTWs run atm on steam with no user map creation etc.
    Last edited by Sp00n; 09-02-2010 at 11:43.
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    The Org has a wiki, this might be useful somehow.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

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    Le Grand Quack Senior Member AggonyDuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    The biggest issue is that the MP community isn't at the .org. It is pointless to try serve someone who isn't here. The MP community these days is largely centred around tournament forums, meaning that if you want to bring the MP community here, you need to start hosting tournaments here and promote them aggressively. That again is fairly hard due to the whole Junior Membership thing.
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    Member Member Tera's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Thanks for starting this thread.

    I think what Duck and Sp00n mentioned above, fused together, holds the key to make The Org the central hub for the multiplayer community. This is no pie in the sky - this website was extremely strong with the community for years. However, The Org needs to be aggressively pro-active in its approach:

    - Have an organized forum structure which caters well for the MP community.

    - Organize large-scale multiplayer tournaments on a regular basis and try to get official, CA-backed prizes for them (like the wallpaper competition). CA knows about us, CA loves the Org. Remember that we are by far the oldest fansite around and this website has promoted Total War games for over ten years now.

    - Be the place-to-be for multi player news. During my two years as website administrator here there were almost daily news posts about the latest news (and sometimes even gossip) coming from the community. New tournaments, new clans, game updates, patch info, new websites, tournament updates, a 'Featured Website' every week - the works. This was part of what made people log to the Org mainpage everyday: there was a clear connection between the MP community and the website. I'm happy to see that the mainpage is up and running again now; but there is ample room for growth.

    - Apart from its in-house tournaments, the Org can easily host or sponsor other peoples' ideas and websites. Instead of having the organizers creating their own forum for the tournament/event, they could host it right here. But the Org staff needs to go "out there" to get these people. They don't just "come". We need to hunt.

    - Last but not least, to do the above, some of the key staff needs to be heavily involved in the multiplayer world: playing the game everyday, knowing the people and the clans, the ins and outs of the game and generally up-to-date with the daily happenings. If The Org doesn't have them right now, you need to recruit. Hiring some the "big fish" in the community is one of the keys to attracting the right crowd of people. It's the way the world works. For example, in STW, having Magyar, AMP or any of the other "cream" of the MP community posting here regularly gave prestige to the forums and almost automatically attracted the rest of the MP crowd.

    People go where the buzz is.

    Just some ideas.
    Last edited by Tera; 09-02-2010 at 22:28.


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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera View Post
    - Have an organized forum structure which caters well for the MP community.
    That, we can do. An idea that was mentioned a while ago to me in private was to provide "infrastructure" for new clans. Most clans that are already up and running have their own site and forum, but new(er) clans could start here in a dedicated subforum, partially hidden for non clan members if need be. They could use the .Org as their home until they have their own site or forum. Or they can just stick around here. Existing clans could have a subforum too, I think. The modding section has a subforum for each mod; so I guess this could be done for MP as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera
    - Organize large-scale multiplayer tournaments on a regular basis and try to get official, CA-backed prizes for them (like the wallpaper competition). CA knows about us, CA loves the Org. Remember that we are by far the oldest fansite around and this website has promoted Total War games for over ten years now.
    With a bit of cooperation of the MP community, this should be doable.

    If there's a big tournament coming up, the people in charge can contact staff here and we can then contact the people at CA. A bit of back-and-forth e-mailing and the organisation of the tournament should know within a day or two if CA sponsors or not.

    For smaller tournaments, we can work with .Org prices, like badges and such.

    A lot is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera
    - Be the place-to-be for multi player news. During my two years as website administrator here there were almost daily news posts about the latest news (and sometimes even gossip) coming from the community. New tournaments, new clans, game updates, patch info, new websites, tournament updates, a 'Featured Website' every week - the works. This was part of what made people log to the Org mainpage everyday: there was a clear connection between the MP community and the website. I'm happy to see that the mainpage is up and running again now; but there is ample room for growth.
    Indeed, there is. And growth is what we're working at right now. We made a start, but now we need to continue the work. Staff and community together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera
    - Apart from its in-house tournaments, the Org can easily host or sponsor other peoples' ideas and websites. Instead of having the organizers creating their own forum for the tournament/event, they could host it right here. But the Org staff needs to go "out there" to get these people. They don't just "come". We need to hunt.


    About the "hunting part"; that's true.The MP ers here can already help us with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera
    - Last but not least, to do the above, some of the key staff needs to be heavily involved in the multiplayer world: playing the game everyday, knowing the people and the clans, the ins and outs of the game and generally up-to-date with the daily happenings. If The Org doesn't have them right now, you need to recruit. Hiring some the "big fish" in the community is one of the keys to attracting the right crowd of people. It's the way the world works. For example, in STW, having Magyar, AMP or any of the other "cream" of the MP community posting here regularly gave prestige to the forums and almost automatically attracted the rest of the MP crowd.
    Good point, again.

    Keep the ideas and suggestions coming
    Last edited by Andres; 09-02-2010 at 23:16.
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    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Get the attention of the non-org visitors on the other boards..... imagine you get online for totalwar and end up at .com.... where u make a post and in an hour its on page 3, pushed away by a lot of silly multidoubled posts if a tsunami is in the game and such. So how do we get them in here...... cant we have a sticky thread at .com pointing to us here?

    What also would help us are posts from the CA staff..... how painfull this was for them in the past... how joyful we would have to make it for them now..... :)
    Last edited by Magyar Khan; 09-03-2010 at 05:31.
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    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by AggonyDuck View Post
    The biggest issue is that the MP community isn't at the .org. It is pointless to try serve someone who isn't here. The MP community these days is largely centred around tournament forums, meaning that if you want to bring the MP community here, you need to start hosting tournaments here and promote them aggressively. That again is fairly hard due to the whole Junior Membership thing.
    While I understand TW has changed as Tera said the Orgs got a long history with CA, CA are shouting loudly about how MP is going to be huge in Shogun 2, its already been mentioned about getting a link to theorg at the totalwar site and they are posting us updates on the game which is great to have.

    I know its a long way off but what are the chances of engaging them about the possibility of theorg hosting a close to release launch MP tournament for Shogun 2 which they could sponsor (sure they did something similar with Shogun with a Sword prize?).

    One thing theorg will have is the old Shogun/MTW veterans and Shogun 2s media coverage hasnt yet hit anywhere near the heights it will nearer launch meaning I'd expect a lot more to start returning.

    IMO there is not a site out there that has the history or is as good as theorg for MP Totalwar, if you think the main problem is getting coverage then what better way to get the current community over here mixing with the old one than the first S2 MP tourny, that together with the clan and tourny tools/information that we have been talking about could help to keep them here once you get them.

    TotalWar's 10th Anniversary Tourny at TheOrg has a ring to it.

    Don't know how possible this is but just a thought.

    Last edited by Sp00n; 09-03-2010 at 11:52.
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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Much depends on how the game does. In all honesty, it's kind of hard to put forward ideas before the games is released. If the product is garbage, then there wont be a strong community to suffice.

    Assuming the game turns out ok though, the basic idea has been suggested above. Scratch the MP community's back, and it should scratch ours. CA say they have "big things" planned for MP this time round and, if this is true, the .Org should do everything possible to pounce on such an opportunity. Far too much traffic has gone towards twcentre in recent years but I believe that if we offer the community something right of the bat, tournaments ect, the .org will be able to establish itself as the MP forum for S2TW.

    I hope though no matter what comes up, the staff will be more than enthusiastic to get involved. I remembered being frustrated during my brief time as assistant mod in the way that no one really seemed to care about MP any more (this was around the time of M2TW). I tried to get some things done, like promote external tournaments but no one really seemed interested. Anyway, in my opinion, speed is key. We need to react to the game and organise ourselves before it hits. Worse comes to worse and it flops, at least we can say we tried to bring MP back to the .Org.


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    Member Member UglyElmo2's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Well if Magy is taking the time to post here again, I guess I will add my 2 cents as well:

    Some things which need to change here to attract the MP crowd:

    1. A separate part of the forum, which has unlimited access to it. No introduction forum, where one has to prove oneself worthy before being allowed to participate in the rest of the forum. That is a bummer for a lot of new players coming here and you lose a great many of them because of it. I agree with them, it does make this forum appear anti-social, and a bit arrogant. I know most of the patrons are not so, but new players probably think we are a bunch of elitist snobs. As for the rest of forum, it can remain restricted, but the MP section should be full-access to new patrons.

    2. The attitude must change for a few of the more opinionated members here. They need to encourage new MP players and not continually bombard them with old discussions of how lousy the current game is compared to past TW games, etc . . .

    3. I agree with the above posters as well concerning who is allowed to moderate the MP forum. Maybe let the MP community select who they would like as moderators for the MP forum, and then make sure that only they, and Tosa are allowed to take moderating actions in this MP section. The moderators should be intimately familiar with the past MP community and the current MP community (Maybe one moderator each: An old veteran and a new veteran), with the other .org moderators/admins taking on an observation-only role, informing the MP moderators (and Tosa) of any problems. Allowing the MP moderators to be the sole guardians and policemen of the MP section will help reduce many of the problems occurring here in the past. The reason being, the MP section of a forum is a unique entity. By its very nature it is a bit more wild and unrestrained, than other parts of the forum. Competition leads to heightened emotions and arguments can get very boisterous. When moderators not familiar with MP interfere, it causes problems. As most of you have recognized the .org is sorely lacking in MP participation and I believe the main reason is due to unnecessary moderator interference. By having just one, or two MP moderators (and Tosa), actively moderating the MP forum, new players will be more likely to respect the rules, and any moderator actions, without leaving the .org and taking many others with them. The other mod/admins here can participate in discussions, just not take moderator actions or PM MP patrons with warnings etc . . That should be the sole duty of the MP moderators and Tosa.

    3. Offering space for tournaments and leagues would also help the .org attract more of the MP community. There is no one place for MP players to go to discussion MP issues right now. In my opinion the current game TW lobby isn't set up to encourage such discussions and isn't really set up for hosting tournaments/leagues. The .org would make a good place for everyone to meet to set up matches, show results, and talk about MP issues.

    4. If CA is serious about MP this time, they should have someone begin participating here, before Shogun 2's release. Even if it is only a few times a week, a post or two here would go a long way towards attracting MP players to the .org and it would benefit CA as well, helping improve its bad public image (with the MP community).

    5. It would not take much effort to make the .org THE MP forum. With Shogun 2, and its imminent release bringing back quite a few old vets, now is the perfect time to improve the .org's image within the MP community. The problem is: Is the .org willing to change? Are its members and moderator/admins willing to give up a bit of their control as well as shelving their past grievances with CA and the new TW games, to allow new players (and the enthusiasm they ultimately bring) to flourish? I hope so, or these discussions are pointless.

    I am sure there are many more things which could be done to help bring the .org up to its past glory days, but the above items are ones that first came to my mind, and ones I believe need be addressed first to insure success.

    PS: Good to see a bunch of old men (and an old woman or two) back participating and playing TW again. :)
    Last edited by UglyElmo2; 09-05-2010 at 05:28. Reason: Cleaning up a bit of verbage and other errors.

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    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Some counterpoint:

    Regarding 2, above: a person's opinion is a person's opinion. As long as it is stated within the boundaries of the forum rules, it should not be censored, nor should a "negative" position taken by a group be censored simply because others don't agree with it--even if those others represent a majority or "elite" group. Without comparative discussions about what is and what was, good and bad, significant improvement is not likely. That one doesn't agree with another's "attitude" is not a good reason to censor on a discussion forum.

    Regarding 3, above: I believe part of what is being suggested is already in effect: moderators are currently assigned to a given forum or forums, and only have moderator authority in those forums. The current moderators of these MP forums may not be heavily involved with MP now, but I know Gregoshi played some MP back in the day, and perhaps Kagemusha has intentions.

    While I agree that the MP forum mods should be familiar with the goings-on of the MP community and MP history here, I don't think they need to be hyperactive in MP to be effective moderators. It's not such a big mystery, nor are the subtleties so hard to fathom, or deal with. Many experienced MPers here would not make good moderators because they do not possess the qualities that make for a good mod (me, for example). Though he may not have played as much MP as many others here, Gregoshi is intimately familiar with the kind of stuff that has gone down here before, and I can think of few who possess his fairness and shrewd judgment as to when--and how--to step in and moderate. Kagemusha has demonstrated good moderator qualities thus far. I can see no reason to criticize either at this point (not that there was any criticism implicit in the suggestion).

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    Member Member UglyElmo2's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Togakure: Looking at your profile I see we are clanmates. I joined the Hunter Clan a few years ago, though my participation was limited due to work and family. :) Nice to meet you.

    I agree with your point about opinions, everyone has their own unique take on things. Unfortunately, in the recent past, certain individuals here took it upon themselves to berate those who came here to discuss the latest game. These same individuals belittled the new patron's opinions and pretty much chased several of them away because they actually had the gall to enjoy the current TW game. Even though these .org veterans were within the forum rules, it still had the effect of chasing away individuals who were interested in participating in MP discussions here. Which is why I said the attitude needs to change, not be moderated or edited out, or censored. It's more the way certain patrons say things and not the things they say which become a problem. One can always be within the forum rules yet aggravate the heck out of people until they finally leave in distaste.

    Concerning the forum moderators with each having their own forums to moderate, this may be true, I have not been here for awhile. My past experience here saw a few moderators (I'm not even sure if they are still here) interfering in discussions which did not concern them, since it wasn't the forum they were assigned. As far as Gregoshi and the other moderators, the reason we are discussing changes here is to attract new patrons for the MP forum. I think Gregoshi and most of the other moderators here do a good job of keeping things under control, however since they may not be very well known within the current MP community, I suggested the MP community choose who they would like to moderate their forum here at the .org. This would create a better environment for the reasons I stated in my previous post. Who knows, the community might very well choose Gregoshi and Kage. Just the fact they had a small choice in the matter would make MP patrons more likely to follow the rules.

    Also, there ARE nuances to take into account when moderating the MP community. If a moderator is not familiar with them, there is a very good possibility of a mass exodus, like happened here before when the .Net forums were formed. Now is a good time to start anew. Since this MP section is to be a new subforum, I see no problem in having the MP community vote for whom they would like to moderate over it. It would not take away from any current moderators duties, but would be adding two more. If Tosa and the others do not like the two moderators chosen, they can ask for another vote . . or better yet, have the MP community here offer up a list of acceptable moderators and have Tosa and the other mod/admins here choose two.

    The idea of having an old veteran and a new veteran moderate is due to the fact there is a schism in the MP community: The older veterans think the younger veterans should show a bit more respect given the older vets' long-time participation in the community, and the younger veterans think the older veterans look down upon the younger vets' opinions and skills. Having a moderator from each distinct group, might help alleviate this perception.

    Feels good to talk about MP issues again with people who care about MP. :)
    Last edited by UglyElmo2; 09-05-2010 at 10:05.

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    Aggony Clan Senior Member Swoosh So's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    The main thing for me is that the moderator whoever it is should be active in the game.


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    Member Member Tera's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    I think we should make a clear distinction between moderators and administrators.

    A moderator's role is to in a way, 'police' his given forum. It is mostly a reactive/passive job since 95% of the moderator's actions are reactions to someone's else actions. Basic knowledge of the topics discussed in his assigned forum is critical because he needs to properly assess, judge and take action on any situation that might arise. However, above all, the moderator must possess good social skills, good judgement, common sense and leadership qualities. He does not need to have a deep knowledge of the matter or be very involved in the multi player world.

    On the other hand, an administrator's role is active. They dictate website and forum policy, create & execute ideas and keep the website and forums up-to-date. Their actions and attitudes will directly translate into what The Org is communicating to the outside world. If the website leaders don't give a crap about multi player or do not properly cater for the MP world, it will show and people will leave the forum. As Elmo says, this is part of the reason TotalWars.Net was created and why almost everyone who played STW/MTW online migrated from here to there. On the other hand, if the administrators are deeply involved in the multiplayer world, the site will reap benefits. For example ...
    - seeing continuously updated multiplayer news on the frontpage communicates that The Org cares about the MP world
    - seeing TotalWar.Org staff in the foyer and in online games communicates that The Org is really into multiplayer.
    - The administrators will be in a position to gain the attention & confidence of online players
    - It will be far easier to organize tournaments and other events
    - The Org will be relevant again when it comes to who's who and what's happening in the multiplayer world.

    To sum it up, I think the Org seriously needs some 100% crazy, multiplayer addicts in their administration line-up, not in their moderator staff. Of course, this doesn't mean recruiting the first high ranking idiot that comes across, but rather taking a courageous step to break the status quo and recruit key, relevant leaders in the multiplayer world.
    Last edited by Tera; 09-05-2010 at 13:16.


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    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Hmm. There is something to be said about an administration that remains neutral and relatively uninvolved--or at least, uninfluenced to any great degree. Ahem ... we all know what can happen when administrators get carried away ... *cough*

    You are rather audacious, Mr. Tera, lol. I like that.

    Administration approves and maintains policy, but doesn't necessarily set it exclusively. I especially disklike the word "dictate." An admin who is good at what s/he does rarely has to dictate anything. The administration here has ever been open to suggestions and has accommodated many. That it has also been cautious of anything that even remotely threatens stability, security, and overall purpose of the board--which is not limited to MP--is understandable, expected, even. I'm not so sure forum administration and community leadership should be one in the same. Division/balance of power can be a very good thing.

    True leadership requires no title, no appointed power. MagyarKhan didn't achieve the level of influence he has because he ran a board or a clan--he became a clan leader because he is a leader, demonstrated by his skill in game, and his ability to attract and retain the respect and loyalty of others. Though he's arguably the most well-known leader in the MP community of old, he isn't the only one. There were many others like him, you, Tera, among them.

    I agree that the community needs some 100% crazy MP fanatics to lead, motivate, plan, organize, control and execute. I believe that, if the MP game is good, these will arise as a matter of course. They'll use the Org as a resource as they see fit--or not. They have options now that they didn't have back in the day. What happened before that led to the creation of the .NET was unfortunate, but I don't think the blame lies on either side. Both have responsibility. If anything, we should learn from that whole scene and not let it happen again. Both the community leaders and the administration here have a stake in that. Build consensus, be willing to compromise. Don't cross those arms and jut that chin; don't run off and reinvent the wheel. Work together.

    But let's not re-open that coffin too far (Krast might pop out). My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.
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  21. #21
    Member Member Tera's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

    I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?


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  22. #22
    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Call me a fanatic, but I believe this for the past 6 years 3 months now. I always thought MP players should run their own stuff on forums as Moderators/Admins. Call me a 19 century militaristic Prussian, but as much as I enjoy and respect our SP crew, I just think MP players are better at handing their own problems since they can relate to it.




  23. #23
    Member Member UglyElmo2's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Togakure View Post
    My point is, I believe community leadership and forum administration are two different things that might very well be better kept separate. As long as the administration here is supportive of reasonable initiatives brought up by community leaders, it should be fine.
    Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.

  24. #24
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera View Post
    Good one Toga :-) Perhaps I was a little too extreme in the choice of words. However, the gist of the argument is that The Org must work hard to build strong bridges with the MP community, and for that to happen, the website needs the proper tools, including human resources.

    I wish to branch the discussion in a new direction: We're attracting all the oldies, but where are the new people who are excited about STW2? This forum is a tomb compared to the activity brewing at TWCenter in the STW2 forums. What's the story about that?
    I need to go over to the TWC and observe at length. When I went there some years ago I disliked it intensely, but I imagine much has changed since then. Are there a lot of MP enthusiasts over there? Does the TWC show enthusiastic support of their MP community? Do they have consistent recognizable community leaders like we do/did?

    I'd never thought that the Junior Membership process might be somewhat of a roadblock until others criticized it here recently. I haven't really considered the implications of it but obviously others here have. That's something that should be looked at if it is having a negative effect on getting new people in here.

    Regarding attracting new peeps: I remember vividly when I was new to MP, here and in the STW foyer. "Vets" and clannies can be rather intimidating to newbs, particularly when they're together in their social groups. I think many took pleasure in making newbs feel small and stupid. Even now, "oldies" still cling together, give each other shout-outs and pats on the back--while pretty much ignoring unknowns and SPers, etc.. I don't think any disrespect or exclusion is intended--but it happens anyway sometimes. We all know how cliques work, how they can effect others on the "outside." So, what will we do to balance that out? Org staffers make it a point to welcome newcomers directly--this is a good start. "Vets" would do well to do the same. Their acknowledgments carry a lot of weight ....

    I think many SPers who might be quite good at MP avoid it because they are somewhat intimidated by the veteran MPers and their cliques. This is sad. I was one of those, but found myself with an excess of time on my hands and decided to subdue my "fear" and try it out. Luckily, I found some cool guys (or they found me) who befriended me, showed me the basics and helped me acclimatize. A HUGE shout-out to them; they know who they are and epitomize what "honor" is in a gaming environment.

    I guess my point is, veteran MPers can help attract new talent by openly welcoming new players and encouraging them to participate, being consistently friendly, being considerate of their ideas--even when we know what they are suggesting isn't practical--and actively including them in what we do. I tend to climb up on my pedestal and shout angrily on the subject of "elitism" when I see elitist behavior and structures that support it because it alienates. Everyone should be included and respected unless/until they demonstrate consistently that they are not worthy of that inclusion/respect. Such judgment should not be made flippantly. If a new player felt welcomed and respected--despite their lack of knowledge or experience--then I think more would be inclined to get involved. In time, they too will become knowledgeable and experienced, and we all stand to benefit from their shared insights.

    This doesn't mean we have to be weak and accommodating when evaluating skills and training newcomers on the battlefield. That is a separate matter. The cub-to-adult process is brilliant and has produced some fantastic players who wouldn't be as good if they'd been coddled "politely." But community involvement is different. We would do well to distinguish between the two.

    This is a good topic to focus on now, being that a community is people, and we would do well to increase our numbers and active involvement.

    Rambling ... sorry. It is indeed good to talk about things MP with others who have a passion for MP.
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  25. #25
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyElmo2 View Post
    Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.
    I hear you, UglyElmo2. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I will say this: Often, to get, we must give. Often, to forget, we must forgive. Who will take the initiative? Who should doesn't matter ... who will?

    With respect ....
    Last edited by Togakure; 09-06-2010 at 03:12. Reason: corrected a typo in name
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  26. #26
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyElmo2 View Post
    Ah I see where you are coming from now Togakure. :) In normal circumstances, I would agree, but given the .org's reputation concerning past events, I think there is going to have to be an olive branch thrown to the MP community, and having one or two moderators in the MP forum selected by the MP community itself would be a very good indicator of the .org's willingness to accept the MP community back. Otherwise, I fear the status quo will be maintained and the .org will remain just a fond memory to the MP community.
    This was done for M2TW I believe. Me and another person (the name slips me) were put forward to moderate the MP forum. Unfortunately, as total war history will tell us, M2TW was a bit of a let down and within a couple of months the forum was practically dead. If I remember correctly, the other nominated mod didn't actually turn up for work and I was kicked from the role due to a couple of months of inactivity without so much as a PM. Fair enough I was inactive, but it's not like there was a heavy flow of posts which needed to be moderated..

    Anyway, back on topic, the one down side with such a nominated moderator system is that certain people from certain bits of the community would generally be put forward as names to moderate. Much then depends on how big the game is and how big the community is here. If we assume the community will be us plus a few others, then a nomination system would work fine. If it is bigger than we anticipate however, nominating moderators can often lead to cries of there being some sort of insiders "clique". It's kind of hard to explain but there was a debate in the watchtower a couple of months back where some people suggested the .org itself was a big "clique". This is of course a subjective observation and one I disagree with but it's also one some people perceive as accurate. Some people might be put of by this image of an inclusive .org clique but equally others might see it as attractive.

    I do however generally agree with such an idea but I just thought it would be best to show the other side of the coin so that if such a thing comes about, it can be implemented correctly.
    Last edited by tibilicus; 09-06-2010 at 03:21.


    "A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."

  27. #27
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Good discussion so far. Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

    I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

    And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

    This space intentionally left blank

  28. #28
    Member Member UglyElmo2's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Don't get me wrong Gregoshi: I think you are very capable of moderating the MP forum. :) You have the personality for it, as well as Kage. The reason I stated the .org may want to have the MP community vote for the moderators in this new section, is to disprove what Tibiculus stated as a perceive clique. Though, I also understand Tibiculus' thoughts about how the voting could also be perceived in such a manner. It's quite a conundrum. :)

    I think the first step which needs to be taken is opening up this section of the forum to new patrons without them having to go through the introduction/waiting period. Otherwise, I think you will find people will not be willing to join here. This is probably the main reason some people feel the .org is a clique and not an open forum.

  29. #29
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Since many speak about the past. The current situation, as far i can see, was caused by the general opinion of how this game has to played - SP.
    I remember endless discussion about this matter and it was always the same, this of course did lead to the situation, no Tourneys, hardly some clear positioning.

    Newer clans are not here, as far i can see, without them this cant/wont work. How to suddenly attract those player?
    If i see Gregoshi ask where are the new clans are, i ask myself, why the ORG took that way?
    I remember the "NET" times, people always since then wanted more room for the MP part of the game, but the ORG didnt deliver!

    We become older, Im sure, that many of the old guys are more than willing to help to build something up here.

    A good point came up with some good player becoming a moderator here, this is more than needed. It was always a big problem to argue with moderators here who maybe played a bit online, but was far away from being a real good player. I made a post about what i expect from the ORG concerning tourneys. As i dont know how other guys organize there tourneys, i guess that the current hosts still face the same old problems, at least i didnt found a tool on steam to help organize a tourney.

    I brought up this tool and want to mention it once again.

    You all surely saw the "Table" of the football WM, there you always see this windows where the names of the Teams are written in. The amount thins out more and more and in the end you see just 2 windows which remain the last 2 teams. (I hope that is good explained from me...). This tool i expect here at the ORG. Its pretty easy to work with, in the first line you enter all the names of the player who want to take part, this can be done by the organizer or the player itself.

    Now the easy part, which usually takes ages to actualize, after the 2 player played their game, the winner (actual he is the guy who has still interest) come here and write his name in the "second line", if the loser found that the winner did cheat or whatever he can speak to the moderater od the tourney.
    This tool would speed a tourney up like hell, my tourney back in mtw was 200+ player strong and we did need 4 weeks to finish it - here you found the tourney - www.kocmoc.de

    You could play surely 5-6 games in one day, assuming that a game takes 1h, that would be 32 or 64 player.


    That tool is just an example of what could be done. Also i have never used Steam before, so im not the guy who could say something about it, what i saw was an extra unit you can get,
    if you join a certain TW group on Steam. If this is possible, why the ORG with the help of CA doesnt get a deal done with Steam?

    Replay´s. If i did learn something in another game, than that the people love spectating, they love to watch the better player playing a battle.
    The Org should install ( right now, you dont need to wait for Shogun2) a site here, where player can upload their games.
    We also could stream tourney fights, the software is out and easy to use. It needs to get promoted.

    If shogun2 will really hold what CA actual promise, than we will see tons of new player and the young people today love watching. I know some use youtube, other have their own sites...
    Org need the traffic and the space to host this, if the ORG cant deliver it, you can use Youtube and kinds implement it here, so it look nice at least.

    I doubt that this place has any trouble to be a big meeting point, especially as the old clans, if they really come back, will rule it. This is the big advance.
    You got all the big player still, now you can mix up some old memories, i know that Mag still has the 3v3 Allstart replay, of AMP, Mag and me. This are memories, get something from the old spirits in here.

    The mob always runs to the winner, if the ORG contains almost all the winner, the sheeps will follow.
    This said, hold the hands of the top oldtimer a bit and you already won.

    Without knowing what CA is planning, i personal would create an official playernote, which contains personal infos, but also a lot of statistics.
    This infos can be used to get a quick look at the player, since there are Steam achievements, why not give some more? Won a tourney, won two tourneys... and so on, more MP marks.

    If i met a player online id like to know, how many percent of his games hes winning, which maps he mostly play on, he defend? He use art?
    How long his battles last average?

    What about the old Clanwar belt? or other longrun "tourneys", we always made it ourself, there was no help from the ORG or other places, there could be each weekend the fight for the belt.
    It has to get organised, it needs preparation. If help is needed im more than willing to support and help where i can.

    I have endless ideas, this just would take too long now to bring em all up.

    Koc


    edit: In another tread we spoke about communication. I saw, that Steam offer some kind of Team Speak.
    What about, if the ORG would host a TS3 server? Im not sure, how good the Steam TS is, i just know that TS3 cause some very small extra latency, which is more than important these days.

    Within the "ORG-TS" you could give each Clan who register at the ORG their own clanchannel.


    What about different languages? While it might be a problem in the first place, there could be a some room for different languages, i give you the german elite clan and the spanish celtiberos.
    Both got many players at those times and with more player becoming active in MP, the different languages could be interesting.
    Why not offer player who lack english skills, like me, some space to get help in their own languages?
    Some basics maybe, some help, i personal would like to help german players, other might want to help people from their country as well.

    If the ORG runs tourneys, it would be more than helpful to write the rules not only in english, just one example.
    Last edited by Kocmoc; 09-06-2010 at 12:34.

  30. #30
    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Org could better serve the needs of MP players,Clans and the MP community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi View Post
    Good discussion so far. Lots of good points to discuss and consider, both from the Org side and community side.

    I have been pleasantly surprised at all the discussions that have popped up in the new forum. Comparatively speaking, the Dojo II has turned into a desert since this forum came to be. However, I too have noticed it is pretty much a retired veterans' club - where are the new clans? If we want this to become the focal point for S2TW MP, we must all become ambassadors. If you hear mention of new/unknown clans talking about S2TW, take it upon yourself to find them and engage them in discussion via email, chat, their clan forums, etc and invite them to join the discussions here. Welcoming of new players or new clans is a must if we want to grow the MP community. We will also have to be careful and not ram the "STW MP was soooo much better than the crap MP the TW series has now" attitude down the newer players' throats - the bitter old man syndrome if you will.

    And as for moderation of MP forum(s), I recognize I am not well suited to moderating such forums and have said so to the Org staff. I volunteered to help moderate this forum with Kage for the time being in these early stages of the game's development until better and more suitable moderators are assigned.

    Its early days we have no details on MP and I think the pair of you have done a fine job so far, basically atm all we can do is throw around ideas, I do think the number 1 priority in this time should be to get theorg promoted more hopefully by getting some sort of tie in with CA TW site and or steam.
    Has gone very quite here again since since the initial Shogun annoucement apart from the handful of old vets still posting.
    Last edited by Sp00n; 09-06-2010 at 13:20.
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