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Thread: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer - A Request for CA

    (Hoping I can get a sticky on this right away, as this is a very serious subject.)

    No matter how good or bad the game or the players are, the most important thing in multiplayer is a quality connection. Without that connection, nothing else matters. If the game is laggy, or players drop, you might as well take on the AI in a single player game.

    We now have a tri-color, tri-level, “Connection” meter on the Battle List screen. This can tell you about the host’s connection. I am not sure what exactly we are looking at there, but stay away from hosts with any red bars, am cautious about yellow bars, and always happy to see green bars.

    Now that is all well and good, giving you some advanced notice on the potential of a host to be able to sustain the number of players at the army size proposed. But there is no way in the game for the host to be able to analyze the connection suitability of the “players” joining their game.

    I am assuming that the host meter is measuring ping between the host and their local Steam communications server. And believe that when different people join their game, the impact on that connection is visible on the Battle List screen. Of course the problem here is that the host can no longer see that meter to have any clue as to how much ping “weight” he may be being asked to carry.

    It would be great if this same meter was available in the Army Set Up, to see who might have to be eliminated from the current line up. But even better yet would be a “host to player ping meter” of sorts, as this is the way I believe that the game will be functionally handled, with the host becoming the server for the actual games processing.

    Something needs to be done “before” we all venture into Shogun2, as the lag and eventual drops are on the verge of ruining the multiplayer we have now in Napoleon for many players.

    This is not reinventing anything, just giving us a tool that is desperately needed!

    Thanks for your attention.

    Any players who understand the problem, and can add their voice to this request, please do so.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Tomisama; 09-06-2010 at 15:48. Reason: minor revisions
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  2. #2
    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    I support this Tomisama. I usually hate it when I get drop, because of Steam or due to a bad connection because of a host.

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    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    i smell a good idea for the wishlist....
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    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Wasted another 2 hours the day before yesterday with 3 false game starts.

    Two because of unplayable lag, and one because of a single lame player who quit in the first 5 minutes, dumping on the other seven players in the game.

    These two problems are now at epidemic proportions in our community.

    Little can be done about the bad manors of a particular player, but a pregame lag detection monitor is something doable, and is still the most critical improvement needed.

    Bump!
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    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Well, how on earth we did play in STW with 56k modems? 4v4 was hard, but 3v3 was mostly good and smooth.
    1v1 and 2v2 wasnt a problem at all.

    Discs was very rare those times. Why there is such a big problem today? Im not a programmer, someone might explain this plz to me.


    And yes, i agree with that point. But i would like to mention that, if the game is crap, you dont need a connection at all, since you wont play it anyway!
    So in the first place, the game itself has to be good, to be of any interest to play it.

  6. #6
    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    smooth MPenvironment + flawless gameplay = best TW ever
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  7. #7
    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Basically Steam isn't great the random disconnects and general crap ability for it to have players linked in from different timezones is very annoying, I know its easy to look back with rose tinted spectacles but I agree with Kocmoc we did play games in Shogun on 56k (and 14-15inch crt monitors lol) but despite the judder lag midgame you would get on the larger games it still seemed more stable than the current setup.

    I've yet to complete a 4v4 whenever I join Cancritters games as I get a steam disconnect each time, add that to the fact that some evenings you can spend hours disconnecting from steam and these days I'm on a 25mb line. Not sure if its steam or NTW thats to blame. I'd hope to see a huge improvement for Shogun 2 though please.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Kas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    I kinda like NTW, but no longer play it online, because of the (lack of) playability.
    I've a nice pc and very good connection...still not good enough it seems.

    I'm afraid STW2 online won't be much better...prolly even worse.

    Of course I'll buy the game, but I fear TW online will be a big disappointment...graphics rule these days. Gameplay comes second (if at all). Fancy looks sell...the rest is of no importance it seems.

    Is there a strong NTW community? nope! Why not? because the game isn't good enough.

    CA should go back to what was good...and make it better. Instead they move on like a steam(argh!)roller...add more bells and whistles and all will be fine? No it won't...it will be worse.

    graphics rule...graphics sell, so...expect another great looking fail game.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not
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    Aggony Clan Senior Member Swoosh So's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Wonder when we will see the first TRUE 3d sterioscopic totalwar... I know u can do with the nvidia kit at the moment but wonder when games will actually be designed for 3d especially with 3d movies and tv all over the place nowadays.


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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Swoosh So View Post
    Wonder when we will see the first TRUE 3d sterioscopic totalwar... I know u can do with the nvidia kit at the moment but wonder when games will actually be designed for 3d especially with 3d movies and tv all over the place nowadays.
    I can't believe you said this Swoosh with so many non-graphic things you've discussed that need fixing. I can see the cliche, cheesy title now: Medieval 3D Total War.
    This space intentionally left blank

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    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Although nothing is perfect, it is not the game.

    It is not Steam, as it was not GameSpy, as it was not Electronic Arts before them.

    It is the players (their operation of and/or their equipment)!

    This has always been true, is now true, and will be true in the future.

    And what is needed is a way to qualify those you wish to play with (as much as possible anyway).


    Please see my post in Napoleon Multiplayer:

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...tal-time-in-MP
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    Clan Takiyama Member Sp00n's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama View Post
    Although nothing is perfect, it is not the game.

    It is not Steam, as it was not GameSpy, as it was not Electronic Arts before them.

    It is the players (their operation of and/or their equipment)!

    This has always been true, is now true, and will be true in the future.

    And what is needed is a way to qualify those you wish to play with (as much as possible anyway).


    Please see my post in Napoleon Multiplayer:

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...tal-time-in-MP
    I disagree many of us have very fast internet and very fast PC's and still get the same issues, some of the issues sure are caused by laggy players, I can play games with Swoosh on occasion and get lag and we're in the same country with similar PCs specs and internet. Its a number of issues.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sp00n View Post
    I disagree many of us have very fast internet and very fast PC's and still get the same issues, some of the issues sure are caused by laggy players, I can play games with Swoosh on occasion and get lag and we're in the same country with similar PCs specs and internet. Its a number of issues.
    Did you read my post with all of conditions that need to be met?

    I should have probably have listed them out (maybe will in the future).

    This is not magic, or rocket science either, in other words there is a reason (not a total mystery) and it can be figured out (and by almost anyone).

    The one major problem is you are dealing with human beings, who may or may not know exactly what they are talking about, and may not even know that themselves.

    And when found at fault in a particular situation, will stretch the truth, or even outright lie to save social face.

    I have friends in the UK who sometimes can or can not play depending on traffic in their particular area.

    I also know others there who are able to host under almost every condition, but seem to find it easier when that side of the Atlantic is going to bed.

    You can disagree all you want, but I have scores of contests, involving clans in the hundreds, and individual players having successfully completed thousands of battle missions, that can and do prove my points.
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    <code>ninja</code> Clan Nikodil's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Well, if you take the game, as-is, as a given parameter, then of course you have to blame the players, because that's the only varying factor between games. But really, you have to admit that robustness of the current TW engine is below the acceptable standard?
    Last edited by Nikodil; 10-23-2010 at 21:56.

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    Aggony Clan Senior Member Swoosh So's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi View Post
    I can't believe you said this Swoosh with so many non-graphic things you've discussed that need fixing. I can see the cliche, cheesy title now: Medieval 3D Total War.
    Heh i said i wonder when we will see it not that i want it :D


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    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutzeit View Post
    Well, if you take the game, as-is, as a given parameter, then of course you have to blame the players, because that's the only varying factor between games. But really, you have to admit that robustness of the current TW engine is below the acceptable standard?
    If the game could be changed to a central server based format (standard), eliminating the dependence on the hosts machine and connection to support all of the players, now that would cure many (if not most) of the stability problems in multiplayer.

    Who knows what’s in the works?

    Maybe even 3D for Swoosh…lol :p
    Last edited by Tomisama; 10-24-2010 at 14:27.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Kas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sp00n View Post
    I disagree many of us have very fast internet and very fast PC's and still get the same issues, some of the issues sure are caused by laggy players, I can play games with Swoosh on occasion and get lag and we're in the same country with similar PCs specs and internet. Its a number of issues.
    QFT

    when all was fine...nice and shiny...rose coloured...happy joy joy...etc...why isn't there a happy thriving NTW community?

    The game itself is pretty good, so the absence of a healthy happy online community says something I guess.

    When so few people play the game online...something is wrong...several somethings even
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    Senior Member Senior Member Tempiic's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kocmoc View Post
    Discs was very rare those times. Why there is such a big problem today? Im not a programmer, someone might explain this plz to me.
    Something I have been noticing in my field of work. Nowadays very few programmers actually know much about how networks / internet connections (using simple terms) actually work. Dunno why, but this specific knowledge is slowly dissapearing. It is apparantly not taught at school anymore (based on interims(sp?) we get and such) for some reason. Maybe it is because everything is set automatically thanks to dhcp and people and teachers assume it works anyways. Same thing is happening with how pcs actually work. Haven't met an interrim yet who could explain that to me.

    Now your average coder doesnt need to know that stuff, but if a good cisco programmar for example cannot get his stuff working because he doesn't understand the IP part very well, I am slightly worried. Then again, nowadays there is so many things to know, maybe it is simply not possible anymore to know everything about every aspect.

    Anyways why there is less stability. One huge difference perhaps is that we as whole have started to use internet much more heavier with much more people compared to a decade ago.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempiic View Post
    Anyways why there is less stability. One huge difference perhaps is that we as whole have started to use internet much more heavier with much more people compared to a decade ago.
    This is certainly one of the factors involved, also the overall complexity of the game it’s self has grown.

    Another is the player base that both grown and changed over the years.

    Just lately, presenting the game on Steam opened the community up to anyone with the price of admission, with no particular knowledge, specific interest, or commitment required.

    They come, they drop (poorly equipped), or quit (poorly mannered), they leave to return to their RPGs and FPSs.

    *****

    Just checking the stats, and here is a surprise, at least to me.

    Look at Empire vs. Napoleon

    Current-Peak-Game Monday October 25th 11 am GMT

    28,749 75,108 Counter-Strike: Source
    25,662 72,212 Counter-Strike
    25,556 69,021 Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - Multiplayer
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    11,195 25,486 Team Fortress 2
    7,003 19,814 Left 4 Dead 2
    6,535 15,659 Football Manager 2010
    4,652 10,024 Football Manager 2011 Demo
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    3,041 7,417 Condition Zero
    2,775 8,541 Garry's Mod
    1,983 4,388 Fallout New Vegas
    1,853 4,931 Napoleon: Total War
    1,621 4,144 Mafia II
    1,589 5,357 Day of Defeat: Source
    1,527 5,164 Battlefield: Bad Company 2
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    1,351 4,036 Left 4 Dead
    1,173 3,458 Mount&Blade: Warband
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    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    empire has a bigger and more attractive timespan.... and when ur totally new how would u know that older tw releases were better...
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  21. #21
    The Puppet King Senior Member AggonyKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempiic View Post
    Something I have been noticing in my field of work. Nowadays very few programmers actually know much about how networks / internet connections (using simple terms) actually work. Dunno why, but this specific knowledge is slowly dissapearing. It is apparantly not taught at school anymore (based on interims(sp?) we get and such) for some reason. Maybe it is because everything is set automatically thanks to dhcp and people and teachers assume it works anyways. Same thing is happening with how pcs actually work. Haven't met an interrim yet who could explain that to me.

    Now your average coder doesnt need to know that stuff, but if a good cisco programmar for example cannot get his stuff working because he doesn't understand the IP part very well, I am slightly worried. Then again, nowadays there is so many things to know, maybe it is simply not possible anymore to know everything about every aspect.

    Anyways why there is less stability. One huge difference perhaps is that we as whole have started to use internet much more heavier with much more people compared to a decade ago.
    well there are 3rd party devs that handle online for a lot of games. Example, Demonware. They handle networking needs for a huge majority of console and PC games. Most of the dev code mp when it comes to gameplay and to make it compatible with Demonware type services.

    but this is no surprise as CA has always had a 3rd party handle the complicated hosting services, gamespy and now steam.

    They really need to mimic what Blizzard does and make the mp the important area. They are really missing out on all the potentials that come with a strong mp system and infrastructure. Although once in a while I enjoy a sp campaign, it is mp where the money is made the most on the long run (ads, dlc, etc) Honestly I think CA just doesn't know how to code for steam and hopefully their mp team for Shogun 2 can do something about it.

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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Magyar Khan View Post
    empire has a bigger and more attractive timespan.... and when ur totally new how would u know that older tw releases were better...
    Look at some of the RTW players I play with that started on MP in 2007/2008. They think RTW is the best game MP wise and they get mad when a person like me who started during the pre-RTW era says that STW or my personal pick MTW 1 is better.

  23. #23
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    I will sticky this one Tomisama, I hope it will be noted.

    I saw the title and was thinking: 'fun' is most important. But thinking about it, fun decreases rapidly when gamespeed is 1 fps or less.
    Ja mata

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    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    GAH!

    Vanya suspects other games have dealt with the problem of lag and bad connections. Vanya wonders how people can play WOW for days on end against other kids.

    Vanya thinks the problem lies with each computer progressing on it's own and reconciling the events with all the other computers. Vanya thinks the host should run all the action, with all the others simply subscribing to the feed. This way, no reconciling. Peers send commands to host, host computes, broadcasts results. Each peer then updates and the cycle continues. Vanya sez this because He thinks a good portion of drops have nothing to do with lag but with divergent versions of reality.

    GAH!
    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  25. #25
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    I recall online matches in RTW where both sides won, without the game going out of sync, so what you feel certainly happens.

    But wouldn't the host have to send real-time data of everything to every player then? That sounds like a load of data.
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  26. #26
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu View Post
    I recall online matches in RTW where both sides won, without the game going out of sync, so what you feel certainly happens.

    But wouldn't the host have to send real-time data of everything to every player then? That sounds like a load of data.
    It depends how they send the data I guess.

    A game I can use as an example is Warcraft 3.

    Same sort of setup, with the servers, then the players actually hosting the games.

    You can have hundreds of units played by up to 12 players, in real time, with no lag between actions being inputted, and the return, with simple download/upload from players of about 1-5KB/ps (depending on the amount of stuff happening) and the host with that times the number of players.
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  27. #27
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kas View Post
    I kinda like NTW, but no longer play it online, because of the (lack of) playability.
    I've a nice pc and very good connection...still not good enough it seems.

    I'm afraid STW2 online won't be much better...prolly even worse.

    Of course I'll buy the game, but I fear TW online will be a big disappointment...graphics rule these days. Gameplay comes second (if at all). Fancy looks sell...the rest is of no importance it seems.

    Is there a strong NTW community? nope! Why not? because the game isn't good enough.

    CA should go back to what was good...and make it better. Instead they move on like a steam(argh!)roller...add more bells and whistles and all will be fine? No it won't...it will be worse.

    graphics rule...graphics sell, so...expect another great looking fail game.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not

    Amen.

    Kas is completely right. Exactly my feelings and thoughts about what happen the last years.

    Any company has to care about the sold copies, that logical and the most important thing. On the long term you need working game, TW is/was a "working" game.
    That we have to deal with things like disconnects, bugged maps, bugged UI, bugged controlling, is weird and disappointing, but for SP it isnt such a problem.

    Community?! There is no community right now, there are more player who play on steam, but no real community. We was a lot less player in STW1, but we had a lot more stuff goin on, the community actual was a community. And yes, the game is average in the best case, there are not many good player playing it, simply as the good player rather play working, good games and that wasnt TW the last years.

    I didnt played it, so didnt many other of the top player. I miss the old activity, of working around, giving something back. Organizing clanwars, hold strong challanges, have some "wars" on the boards, dissliking, hating, harrassing, politics... all the things which spice it up.
    Today i see here a Happy-Hippo-World, where everyone loves each other and kiss everything what comes close to his/her mouth.

    Thats a wargame, this is Total War and here we need clans who dont like each other and want to fight it out online!
    We still have to stick to some rules and after all, we are humans and should show some manner. ;)
    Hopefully, people understand what im saying here.

    Let me mention all those personalities, whith there way to write/speak, some of them wasnt good player at all, but they made this board and the game something special.

    Today you log on into steam and if you dont get some help from player, your completely lost. You have no overview, its hard to get some overview, the "stars" behind the names means nothing.
    Games are closed, matchmaking dont work, getting a game vs someone who dont leave after the first clash of some units is hard.
    Again, like many years ago, you spend more time to get a game, than playing.

    The game isnt good for MP. The game works good for SP and the campaign is okay to play. The basics are the same like the last 10 years, some things improved, other got worser.



    I want better gameplay and a solid basic game, with no or almost no bugs. I want the good things, which worked very good many years ago involved again.
    Just one example - the colors of the armies. In NTW you are doomed if your teammates choose the same nation than you, 3 times the exact same color is a nightmare.
    Why? Why change good and easy things? Especially as it is something you can turn on/off on your own PC and other wont notice....

    There is a lot of stuff to improve, some are basics, if these basics are not done at start of S2, the whole MP part will be the same as it is right now.


    Koc

  28. #28
    Member Member Kalle's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    have some "wars" on the boards, dissliking, hating, harrassing, politics... all the things which spice it up.
    Bring Monsta back then, he knew how to do the boardtalk :)
    Playing computer strategy games of course, history, got a masters degree, outdoor living and nature, reading, movies wining and dining and much much more.

  29. #29
    Uber Fowl Member TheDuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama View Post
    Although nothing is perfect, it is not the game.

    It is not Steam, as it was not GameSpy, as it was not Electronic Arts before them.

    It is the players (their operation of and/or their equipment)!

    This has always been true, is now true, and will be true in the future.

    And what is needed is a way to qualify those you wish to play with (as much as possible anyway).


    Please see my post in Napoleon Multiplayer:

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...tal-time-in-MP
    Sadly, if it ain't real life friends, I typically don't play with them. The lacking of maturity in the majority is a depressing reality.
    The Duck

    Although plans don't survive contact with the enemy,
    they help focus the mind!

    Plan. Improvise as needed.

  30. #30
    Uber Fowl Member TheDuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Most Important Thing In Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by AggonyKing View Post
    well there are 3rd party devs that handle online for a lot of games. Example, Demonware. They handle networking needs for a huge majority of console and PC games. Most of the dev code mp when it comes to gameplay and to make it compatible with Demonware type services.

    but this is no surprise as CA has always had a 3rd party handle the complicated hosting services, gamespy and now steam.

    They really need to mimic what Blizzard does and make the mp the important area. They are really missing out on all the potentials that come with a strong mp system and infrastructure. Although once in a while I enjoy a sp campaign, it is mp where the money is made the most on the long run (ads, dlc, etc) Honestly I think CA just doesn't know how to code for steam and hopefully their mp team for Shogun 2 can do something about it.
    I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that most sales for TW games are for the single player portion, not the multiplayer. Only the last couple have had more than just simply battles online. Which tells me the large following is single-player oriented. I don't think this is the same as blizzard's games, which have been focused on MP competition (Starcraft) since basically inception (I know, I play SC2, and played SC1 to death).

    I'll also be honest and say that I buy the TW games for singleplayer, not multiplayer (mostly due to maturity levels of a lot of the players in MP games in general). My brother and I play multiplayer MTW2, and played MTW1. But TW-MP has been more of a curiosity than something that would hold my interest..
    The Duck

    Although plans don't survive contact with the enemy,
    they help focus the mind!

    Plan. Improvise as needed.

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