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Thread: Global Climate Disruption.

  1. #1
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Global Climate Disruption.

    First we had Global warming. Then we had Climate Change. Ladies and Gentlemen, may I proudly announce our new friend, Global Climate Disruption.

    Now for those who questioned why I had changed my mind about Global Warming, here's why...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last November things began to go seriously wrong for the IPCC version of science. Things started after a leading Indian glaciologist called VK Raina publicly pointed out that he disagreed with the IPCC conclusion that the Himalayan glaciers would melt away within 30 years. Raina said studies showed that at the present rate of melting, the glaciers would take hundreds of years to do so. The Indian public had previously been told that the waters from the Himalayas would dry up within their lifetimes, so this good news was published on the front pages of the Indian newspapers.

    Dr Rajendra Pachauri, using his title as the chairman of IPCC, reacted strongly against the good news and told the press there were no errors in the conclusions of the IPCC AR4 report. He told the press that VK Raina's conclusions were based on “voodoo science”, and that his opinions were not worth listening to. Questions were raised by observers, who couldn’t help noticing the strong reactions from the IPCC chairman, at the cost of addressing the errors themselves.

    Pachauri’s crude attempts did not work and within days VK Raina found himself being interviewed by the Indian media alongside a very political Englishman who was not a glaciologist. Whether Raina appreciated Dr Richard North’s intervention I do not know, but certainly North had a different style about how to confront the smearing of Raina’s reputation by the chairman of the IPCC.



    By that time, the error had been tracked back to a glaciologist called Syed Hasnain. Through a simple error, a rumour had developed that the glaciers would be gone within 40 years and the IPCC had published this story as part of its conclusions. Hasnain admitted to the press that there was an error in the IPCC report.

    Eventually Pachauri had to acknowledge the IPCC’s error but the record in the assessment report (AR4) was never corrected, and remains incorrect to date.

    One under-reported aspect of this scandal was the fact that Pachauri had a charity called TERI, which was poised to benefit from millions of euros and hundreds of thousands of dollars set aside to study the melting of the Himalayan glaciers. It turned out that TERI had used the IPCC’s very prediction of glacier doom in asking for funds. It also turned out that Hasnain was at work at TERI studying Himalayan glacier melt. It also turned out that Hasnain already knew about about the exaggerations in the IPCC report. The Sunday Telegraph became the venue where Richard North, who had uncovered major portions of this story, published these stories. Perhaps, as a result of this exposure, the Carnegie Corporation of New York decided to release no further funds to TERI.

    On his blog, North asked obvious questions about the conflict of interest of one person being responsible for overseeing the writing of IPCC reports without error and running a charity which received money to study the conclusions of the IPCC reports. Was he tardy in responding because TERI’s glaciology team studied the same problem of catastrophic melt and therefore he assumed the problem to be genuine? North also raised questions about the accounts of TERI-Europe which is a charity run by Dr Pachauri from a suburban house in South London.

    For the IPCC, there was more to come. Another claim that failed the test was that peer-reviewed scientific research had concluded that a small change in rainfall would decimate the Amazon tropical rainforests. North revealed this claim was gleaned from unsubstantiated gray literature put out by green advocacy groups. The scandal, which was published in the Sunday Times, became known as Amazongate.

    By then of course, the public trust in climate science had taken a further severe knock after the leaking of the CRU Climategate emails. These emails showed how an inner circle of climate scientists had tampered with the proxy temperature records to “hide the decline”, hidden their raw data from other scientists and statisticians and perverted the conventions of peer review.

    The Monbiot counter-attack

    Following Climategate, Glaciergate, Amazongate and North’s articles about Pachauri, Monbiot was finding it harder to sell his messianic scare stories and views to a sceptical public. The two crutches on which he had always relied to convince his fans — the conclusions of IPCC reports and peer-reviewed papers written by climate scientists — no longer worked like they had in the past.

    Certainly, someone had to be blamed.

    Monbiot saw an opportunity to strike at North after the Sunday Times withdrew the Amazongate story. He saw the retraction as a green light, writing two successive pieces at the Guardian, accusing North of “peddling inaccuracy, misrepresentation and falsehood” in the first. North only showed that things were worse — the IPCC statement had been harvested from a defunct Brazilian website. North considered Monbiot’s accusations to be libelous and lawyers were called in to sort out the mess. Monbiot had to admit he had unfairly attacked North and give him space on his column for a reply. (Dr North’s complaints about Monbiot are still awaiting adjudication by the Press Commission).

    The next opportunity arose for Monbiot when the Sunday Telegraph retracted its article and apologised for suggesting that Pachauri was corrupt. The retraction occurred after Pachauri undertook libel action against the paper. In the piece, Booker and North questioned the IPCC boss who donned several hats, working on the boards of several corporations that benefitted from business action against climate change.

    Monbiot repeated the same strategy writing two more articles attacking North for “smearing” the reputation of Dr Pachauri. Perhaps he had not paused to notice, as with Amazongate, that the retracted Telegraph article neither referred to Pachauri’s conflicts of interest nor questions raised about TERI-Europe’s accounts.

    Nevertheless for Monbiot, just as a newspaper retraction vindicated the IPCC earlier, another newspaper retraction, under threat of libel action seemed to absolve the IPCC chairman of all lapses. The caveat-laced, ‘limited review’ of Pachauri’s personal accounts in India, by a private corporation KPMG, which relied on information provided by him, seemed enough for Monbiot.

    The second of the two articles defending Pachauri was titled: “Press continue to hound Rajendra Pachauri despite his innocence”. Members of the public were quick to use the comments forum on Monbiot’s blog to challenge his portrayal of Pachauri as a man who had been smeared by Dr North. Addressing one commenter, Monbiot wrote in his own comments section:


    More than just smears

    I responded with an open letter to George Monbiot asking him to explain his position more clearly. I wanted to know why Pachauri thought VK Raina’s report was “voodoo science”. Was he simply ignorant that the 2035 date in the AR4 report was incorrect and none of his team of experts in glaciology had alerted him to the error? Was not TERI using public funding from the EU, to study the same claim? Wasn’t Monbiot bothered by this? Why did he persist in giving Pachauri the benefit of the doubt? The letter was removed soon after I posted it.

    Further comments were being deleted as well; but I was not willing to give up. I repeatedly asked for Monbiot to comment on why Pachauri made his “voodoo science” smear. I asked whether it was unreasonable to inquire if it had anything to do with TERI being funded to study the very "2035" glacier melting claim.

    Monbiot never responded. As before however, there was more to come.

    The UK Charity Commission made available TERI-Europe’s published and revised accounts. I presented them to Monbiot.
    Year
    Income as submitted before inquiries
    Corrected figures submitted after inquiries

    2006
    7,000
    16,610

    2007
    9,000
    49,878

    2008
    8,000
    103,980

    TOTAL
    24,000
    170,468


    Ritu Kumar, TERI’s director at London was compelled to revise their accounts, following the Telegraph’s inquiries into its dealings. The differences were astounding. What the new accounts showed was that, for three years running (the period shown above), TERI-Europe had grossly under-declared the income of the charity. It did not have any known subsidiaries. This was the same period TERI-Europe obtained DEFRA public funds, just for the IPCC synthesis report alone, an amount almost twice what it declared on the books.

    In the period shown, only 15% of their income had been put through the charity’s accounts and 85% of TERI-Europe’s income had simply not been included in their declared income. Their complete accounts have not been submitted to date.


    TERI-Europe Income reported to the Charity Commission UK

    Monbiot asked visitors to his Guardian thread to come up with evidence of Dr Pachauri’s unreliable bookkeeping. He must have thought this impossible. The one account unable to be veiled from public scrutiny was Pachauri’s TERI-Europe’s and that had 85% of income missing from the books until prodded. I provided Monbiot with what he asked for.

    Monbiot declared Pachauri's personal accounts and financial practices were shown by KPMG as being clean. In the light of the above however, Monbiot's unquestioning confidence in such conclusions were puzzling.

    About midday the inconvenient evidence that I provided at the Guardian forum, along with discussions of that evidence with aghast Monbiot fans were removed from the thread. The thread was closed down.

    Every single comment about the accounts was removed.

    The new Monbiot

    It was always faintly funny that the Monbiot should accuse Richard North of ‘smearing Pachauri’. We saw that Monbiot’s harmless IPCC-inspired pushing of the party line had shallow foundations that would one day be swept away by the growing awareness of the public. But we should revise that opinion. It is one thing to put forward one own points of view and cite half-truths as evidence; it is quite another to tamper with and remove facts from the public record to support an argument that does not stand up. To call for evidence and then hide is both hypocritical and paradoxical. Monbiot should be asking questions and releasing evidence, not covering it up to protect public figures like Pachauri. One wonders how long this charade will last.


    http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2010...ord-clean.html



    Not so much fishy as downright dishonest, methinks.
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  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    These eco-nostra scammers got so many gates by now that there aren't enough gardens. But some people will always be absolutely terrified anyway, the APOCALYPS by CO2, forgive me for I have consumed
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-20-2010 at 14:24.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    its all good, the loonier elements of the activist policy makers/propagandists are gradually being winnowed out, and sensible people are starting to have their voice heard, its all to the good.

    i'm pretty sure we'll have a good idea of what really id going on by the 2014 publication of the 5th IPCC report, now it looks like we might have some sensible policy-makers to respond to it.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    @mods
    might as well lock this thread before it gets into another 50 page who is a bigger NAZI bore
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    @mods
    might as well lock this thread before it gets into another 50 page who is a bigger NAZI bore
    Are you predicting this thread will get heated?
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Are you predicting this thread will get heated?
    No. Disrupted.


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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    When you do good science you acknowledge the uncertainty of your findings. Things are considered unresolved, a new study might show that current theories are wrong. When it comes to politics this makes it tough on people--the opposition can always say "well, that's uncertain". So scientists tend to claim certainty to get around that, confidant that they are right. This seems to have come back to bite them. But it's being overexploited by the opposition. They are falling into the same trap--arguing that global warming is bogus when they should be arguing that there are uncertainties. The former is a rallying cry, the latter only is if they former is heavily implied. But in truth there is no reason to think the science is not basically correct.

    When they talk about how vaccines don't cause autism, they probably overstate the certainty of the findings. But I think they are right to do so. They are combating irrational disbelief. But vaccines are fairly simple in terms of the consequences and what to do. Global warming isn't, and is on a much longer scale.

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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    No. Disrupted.
    Cool!
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Our future overlords, the Chinese, do not question Global Warming. Instead, they are taking the lead in clean energy industry and innovation. We must not let the totally bogus discrediting of climate science hijack public debate. That will keep us in the stone age while the Chinese overrun us:

    What a contrast. In a year that’s on track to be our planet’s hottest on record, America turned “climate change” into a four-letter word that many U.S. politicians won’t even dare utter in public. If this were just some parlor game, it wouldn’t matter. But the totally bogus “discrediting” of climate science has had serious implications. For starters, it helped scuttle Senate passage of the energy-climate bill needed to scale U.S.-made clean technologies, leaving America at a distinct disadvantage in the next great global industry. And that brings me to the contrast: While American Republicans were turning climate change into a wedge issue, the Chinese Communists were turning it into a work issue.

    “There is really no debate about climate change in China,” said Peggy Liu, chairwoman of the Joint U.S.-China Collaboration on Clean Energy, a nonprofit group working to accelerate the greening of China. “China’s leaders are mostly engineers and scientists, so they don’t waste time questioning scientific data.” The push for green in China, she added, “is a practical discussion on health and wealth. There is no need to emphasize future consequences when people already see, eat and breathe pollution every day.”



    And because runaway pollution in China means wasted lives, air, water, ecosystems and money — and wasted money means fewer jobs and more political instability — China’s leaders would never go a year (like we will) without energy legislation mandating new ways to do more with less. It’s a three-for-one shot for them. By becoming more energy efficient per unit of G.D.P., China saves money, takes the lead in the next great global industry and earns credit with the world for mitigating climate change.



    So while America’s Republicans turned “climate change” into a four-letter word — J-O-K-E — China’s Communists also turned it into a four-letter word — J-O-B-S.



    “China is changing from the factory of the world to the clean-tech laboratory of the world,” said Liu. “It has the unique ability to pit low-cost capital with large-scale experiments to find models that work.” China has designated and invested in pilot cities for electric vehicles, smart grids, LED lighting, rural biomass and low-carbon communities. “They’re able to quickly throw spaghetti on the wall to see what clean-tech models stick, and then have the political will to scale them quickly across the country,” Liu added. “This allows China to create jobs and learn quickly.”
    This weekend's Thomas L. Friedman's column: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/op...me&ref=general
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    eh, I'm pretty ok with that. They have the motivation and the "unique ability" so let them work it out and we can buy the tech from them. Or steal it like they steal stuff from us :p

    There's some weird nationalistic undertone to that column (at least the quoted bit). The world getting cleaner (and especially terribly polluted countries like china) is more important than a 1st place medal and cash. And they are in a much better place to work it out than we are, right? I guess he's just trying to be persuasive.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    This is simply an effort in rebranding. 'Global Warming' is an economic exercise first and foremost. It took quite a hit with the record low temperatures last year, and the powers that be have obviously adopted a smarter strategy that doesn't peg their message to one temperature extreme or another.

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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Great piece on China Louis. As usual they are way ahead of their time. Green energy is big business, and while the rest of the world drags it's feet, China will profit in the short, medium and long-term.
    #Hillary4prism

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Why, as luck would have it, today's Guardian runs a very timely article about China's clean energy program:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    China resorts to blackouts in pursuit of energy efficiency

    With end of current five-year plan looming, many regions are desperately pulling the plug to meet usage targets


    No TV. No internet. No air conditioning. Traffic lights off. Hospitals deprived of electricity. Tens of thousands of household fridges and freezers without power. Milk curdling. Vegetables rotting. The risks of delaying energy-saving measures have been all too apparent in a Chinese region where the authorities initiated draconian rationing last month to achieve the state's efficiency targets.

    Anping County, in Hebei Province, cut electricity to homes, factories and public buildings for 22 hours every three days in a radical move that has highlighted both the serious last-minute effort that China is making to achieve environmental goals and the immense long-term difficulty of shifting away from a dirty, wasteful model of economic growth.
    There are less than four months left until the end of China's current five-year plan, during which the economy is supposed to have become 20% more energy efficient. That target (which measures energy use relative to GDP growth) is crucial for a nation that wants to move up the economic value chain and prove to the world that it is making a significant contribution toward tackling greenhouse gas emissions.

    Progress towards this goal was initially good, with a 14.4% gain in efficiency until last year. But it was tilted off track in the first three months of 2010 by huge infrastructure spending – largely on energy-intensive steel and cement projects – aimed at warding off the worst effects of the global economic downturn.

    This meant China's economy surged forward at more than double-digit pace, but was having to burn more coal for each yuan of productivity. After this was revealed, the state council – China's cabinet – ordered the provinces to step up their efforts to reach the energy efficiency target by the end of the year.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...rgy-efficiency
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Most arguments about "global warming" are as sterile as using the last decade as the basis for evolution.

    The only major difference is that if the earth were to heat up again, most of the globe will be under water. What is at fault is less relevant than trying to prevent this - man made or otherwise.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    eh, I'm pretty ok with that. They have the motivation and the "unique ability" so let them work it out and we can buy the tech from them. Or steal it like they steal stuff from us :p

    There's some weird nationalistic undertone to that column (at least the quoted bit). The world getting cleaner (and especially terribly polluted countries like china) is more important than a 1st place medal and cash. And they are in a much better place to work it out than we are, right? I guess he's just trying to be persuasive.
    Friedman's pieces are always opinionated, striving to convince as well as inform. Can't say he did not come up with a surprising perspective on Global Warming, namely the planned communist economy taking the lead.

    In such stark contrast to three decades ago, when Thatcher called for action to halt global warming while the Soviet block happily destroyed the environmental foundation of its society...
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    In such stark contrast to three decades ago, when Thatcher called for action to halt global warming while the Soviet block happily destroyed the environmental foundation of its society...
    You know why that was of course she did chemistry in college did she not.


    It seems to me that the rise of the Professional Politician who has only ever maybe being a politician is detrimental to actually sorting out problems.

    Maggie felt unions got too much money so she broke them a solution to the problem only a technical person would do.

    Check the background of the political class of every broke country today there all lawyers or from political families who have only ever being politicians.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 09-21-2010 at 14:53.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Great piece on China Louis. As usual they are way ahead of their time. Green energy is big business, and while the rest of the world drags it's feet, China will profit in the short, medium and long-term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Why, as luck would have it, today's Guardian runs a very timely article about China's clean energy program:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Yes. Ahead of their time and brilliant. Much like their population control and internal security efforts.


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  18. #18
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Our future overlords, the Chinese, do not question Global Warming. Instead, they are taking the lead in clean energy industry and innovation. We must not let the totally bogus discrediting of climate science hijack public debate. That will keep us in the stone age while the Chinese overrun us:

    This weekend's Thomas L. Friedman's column: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/op...me&ref=general
    Yes. China- friend to the environment.
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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    This is simply an effort in rebranding. 'Global Warming' is an economic exercise first and foremost. It took quite a hit with the record low temperatures last year, and the powers that be have obviously adopted a smarter strategy that doesn't peg their message to one temperature extreme or another.
    2008 is 10:th warmest year on record, after 2009 kicked it down. Me think it had a lot more to do with talking about costful CO2 measurements during an economic downturn.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Much like their population control and internal security efforts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Yes. China- friend to the environment.
    CO2 per Capita and Energy Consumption per Capita. When we look at Renewable Energy Production, China leads the way, and additionally produce 30% of the worlds Solar panels. China of course has it's issues, especially with 2/3 of it's energy production coming from coal. However, it is well ahead of anyone else.
    Last edited by naut; 09-22-2010 at 18:11.
    #Hillary4prism

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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Yes. China- friend to the environment.
    Well, the Chinese have far more serious environmental problems on their hands than most of us. As a result it's not surprising that the government wants to do something about them, as among other things it threatens the food supply of the country and the livelihood of millions of Chinese... And I think the government remembers all too painfully what would happen if they let it out of control, a small taste of which they had with that scandal when the milk turned out to be polluted.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Per capita? Think about that one for a minute.


    When we look at Renewable Energy Production, China leads the way, and additionally produce 30% of the worlds Solar panels. China of course has it's issues, especially with 2/3 of it's energy production coming from coal. However, it is well ahead of anyone else.
    That is, as anyone who has looked at the issue past surface level knows, due solely to the broad use of hydroelectricity in China which - like most large scale public works projects in the US - is difficult to implement due to environmental issues and the associated lawsuits. The United States leads China in every other measure in your list. Also, solar panel production does not tell the whole story. The producers of solar panels, like every other good, often look for the cheapest labor market. That does not mean that 30% of solar panels are used in China, which makes sense as both the European Union and the United States far exceed Chinese solar energy production on your list.

    Don't get sucked into the propaganda... the same people who demand 'energy independence' keep us from investing in the most productive forms of alternate energy - nuclear and hyrdoelectric power. We're not going to get there on wind turbines and solar panels alone.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 09-22-2010 at 20:28.

  23. #23
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    My dear man would you like some tartar sauce with your red herring?


    CO2 per Capita and Energy Consumption per Capita. When we look at Renewable Energy Production, China leads the way, and additionally produce 30% of the worlds Solar panels. China of course has it's issues, especially with 2/3 of it's energy production coming from coal. However, it is well ahead of anyone else.
    The top 4 countries are muslim nations.

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  24. #24
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Don't get sucked into the propaganda... the same people who demand 'energy independence' keep us from investing in the most productive forms of alternate energy - nuclear and hyrdoelectric power. We're not going to get there on wind turbines and solar panels alone.
    Actually, not exactly true, I am very pro-Thermonuclear Fusion.

    I agree with wind turbines and solar panels. They are for small scale establishments like panels per house, and wind turbine for villages and small towns. Not for the entire country.

    They should give companies tax breaks on the building of new homes if they make them energy self-sufficient, such as installing solar panels, etc on them. That would produce some real change.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Per capita? Think about that one for a minute.
    But that is highly relevant. Taking the USA for example:
    population: 310M
    CO2/capita: 30 u

    Where u is the relevant unit of measurement, compare with China:

    population: 1339M
    CO/2 capita: 8 u

    Normalise for population: 30 u / (1339/310) = 6.9u.

    In other words assuming that 8 u of CO2/capita is “normal” you would expect to see the USA producing about 6.9u per capita wheras in truth they produce a good 12.5% more.

    No doubt this has a lot to do with differences in purchasing power of the USA vs. that of China. Me I blame the airco, and the petrol cars.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Canada, australia, and the US are bright red. Size seems important then. Also I'm not sure why they factor out exports and imports. Do they take all of china's factory emissions and add them to the US if they are sending their products here? Weird.

  27. #27
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Canada, australia, and the US are bright red. Size seems important then.
    Most likely it's a combination of a modern society and low pop density.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    hmm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions
    Note that countries near the top of the list are the most efficient. They produce the most economic output with the least emissions. Countries at the bottom of the list are the worst polluters per unit of economic output.
    China is 5th up from the bottom.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Also I'm not sure why they factor out exports and imports. Do they take all of china's factory emissions and add them to the US if they are sending their products here? Weird.
    That's not weird at all. It shows the difference between economies which require relatively little travel (IOW: fuel burning) from those that do. It also helps to address the issue that if all your economy does is soak up laundered money or dodged taxes you would end up completely white even if your imports require an inordinate amount of CO2 to arrive.
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    hmm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions


    China is 5th up from the bottom.
    What is interesting there is the scope for improvement. China has a lot of old inefficient industry that is still running and their coal mines can hardly be described as environmental wonders of cleanliness either. Moving away from such industry towards modern alternatives and an economy more oriented towards service (tourism & gambling in particular) ought to be a fairly simple way of getting 3 for the price of one:
    (a) Economy continues to grow fast which enables the administration to enact reforms that will cost jobs in some sectors without immediate revolution
    (b) China becomes cleaner which should earn the government a modicum of “well done, I guess you're not all bad” from the significant population of Chinese that used to live with an environmental disaster next door or inside one...
    (c) Politicians have some kind of target to channel the energies of the more restless elements in Chinese society. Think the government is doing a poor job? -> Why are you not actively helping solve the problem? Nothing like a grand revolution to keep people entertained/occupied. </sarcasm>
    (d) Recovered territory may become useful to local populations once more which should reduce tensions with local government. E.g the Yangtzhe estuary at Shanghai, or the South Chinese Sea may once again provide a rich source for fishing...
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