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Thread: Global Climate Disruption.

  1. #31

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    That's not weird at all. It shows the difference between economies which require relatively little travel (IOW: fuel burning) from those that do. It also helps to address the issue that if all your economy does is soak up laundered money or dodged taxes you would end up completely white even if your imports require an inordinate amount of CO2 to arrive.
    But if they have terrible polluting factories where we would have nicer factories, that's on them not us, even if we buy their stuff. We can't pass laws regulating their pollution like we can in our own country.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    No doubt this has a lot to do with differences in purchasing power of the USA vs. that of China. Me I blame the airco, and the petrol cars.
    That's the point. The Chinese numbers are illusory. Destitute people are capable of very limited energy utilization. While China does have a growing middle class, including hundreds of millions (billions?) of people into the per capita equation who live in a state of poverty not seen in the Western World skews the numbers in favor of the PRC. Unless Psychonaut is suggesting that the United States should drastically reduce the standard of living for a large portion of the population, there is little to be learned or emulated from China's energy policy. Their industrial practices are far inferior to those of the West in terms of pollution and energy conservation.

    That is why most of Africa is virgin white on the map. It doesn't mean they are particularly better at energy conservation or that they are examples for industrialized first world nations to follow.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 09-23-2010 at 04:31.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    But if they have terrible polluting factories where we would have nicer factories, that's on them not us, even if we buy their stuff. We can't pass laws regulating their pollution like we can in our own country.
    That's a most un-American attitude. I thought the Free Market offered you the ability to Vote With Your Wallet?
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  4. #34
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    That's a most un-American attitude. I thought the Free Market offered you the ability to Vote With Your Wallet?
    That's economic democracy, not the free-market.
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  5. #35
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    My dear man would you like some tartar sauce with your red herring?
    They're that color because of the rose-tinted glasses. Panzer sufficiently addressed your post.

    Wait...was that a Mongol joke?


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  6. #36
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    That's not weird at all. It shows the difference between economies which require relatively little travel (IOW: fuel burning) from those that do. It also helps to address the issue that if all your economy does is soak up laundered money or dodged taxes you would end up completely white even if your imports require an inordinate amount of CO2 to arrive.
    What is especially interesting is the clockwork precision of climate-change, never heard about such a thing such as an industrial age every 50.000 years or so. Maybe planetary allighnment could have something to do with it, just musing. Interestingly enough CO2 levels rise after temperature does, which is of course amazing to everybody who didn't know that liquids vapourize when warmed.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Oh C02 levels would rise when the seas get hotter, and it has little to do with vapourising at all (it's simply that C02 gas becomes less soluble in water when temperature rises).
    But on the other hand C02 levels would rise far more if the world's phytoplankton population were in decline for the world's phytoplankton reduces far more C02 than do the world's land based plants. Funnily enough phytoplankton populations might just have been doing exactly that: declining since the 50's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankto...lation_decline
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 09-23-2010 at 18:08.
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  8. #38
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Fragony's favourite movie was Waterworld.
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  9. #39
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Fragony's favourite movie was Waterworld.
    No personal attacks please.
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  10. #40
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Fragony's favourite movie was Waterworld.
    Nah not nearly enough water, that's just silly

  11. #41

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Waterworld is one of the best movies ever made and anyone who says otherwise doesn't like movies (like people who say whiskey is bad because it burns).

  12. #42
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    No personal attacks please.
    It wasn't a personal attack, or wasn't meant as such. Personal joke, yes.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-23-2010 at 22:17.
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  13. #43
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    It wasn't a personal attack, or wasn't meant as such. Personal joke, yes.
    I know, my post was more about the quality of Waterworld.
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  14. #44
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    I know, my post was more about the quality of Waterworld.
    HA

    My favorite movie atm must be Let the Right One In, it's about a vampire, you know vampires, they wanna bleed you dry

  15. #45
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    omgwthwut? du jour

    http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1139..._de_muur_.html

    I thought this was a parody about the green khmer making people absolutely terrified of CO2. I was wrong it isn't parody, the green khmer actually released this. WARNING INSANILY GORY but perfectly perfect young for children, you got to work that skull
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-05-2010 at 04:48.

  16. #46
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    did anyone notice the New Scientist article that turned up in my paper copy last week?

    three different mechanisms by which the sun is now thought to impact earth's climate, via mechanisms surrounding cloud formation and influenced by cosmic rays.

    notably; mention of the fact that the GCM's used to create projections for the 5th IPCC report in 2014 will now include such mechanisms.

    a lot of people have received a lot of abuse from the catastrophe activists over the last few years for suggesting exactly these things, now its mainstream accepted theory in the process of being tested for the level of impact it has on earths climate, will they now apologise?

    i understand the new scientist taking a very pro IPCC line over the past decade, they are a scientific magazine and should be expected to defend the scientific method: create a theory, test it for validity, accept it until new testing disputes its validity, or new theories better explain the observed results. there is no other way to properly conduct science.

    but the IPCC isn't just laboratory science, it results in policy that has the potential to seriously impact the wellbeing and welfare of humanity for generations to come, so for this reason cost-benefit should be applied to policy that results from IPCC reports.

    trying to retrofit the precautionary principle into scientific method has been a disaster for public trust in science generally, not just the the creation of sensible climate policy.
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  17. #47
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Climate Facism from Rishard Curtis and Gillian Anderson: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...10-10-activism

    This was not funny, and the fact that anyone should suggest this even in jest is abhorrent.

    Heresy trials anyone?

    I have decided I no longer believe in Global Warming, though I still believe recycling and emission reductions are important for our children's future - I no longer believe that humanity can have such a decisive effect on the Global climate, the science just doesn't seem to be there.
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  18. #48
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Why is there doubt? Doubt, in your heart?

    *splut*

  19. #49
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Climate Facism from Rishard Curtis and Gillian Anderson: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...10-10-activismI have decided I no longer believe in Global Warming, though I still believe recycling and emission reductions are important for our children's future - I no longer believe that humanity can have such a decisive effect on the Global climate, the science just doesn't seem to be there.
    The part that is dangerous here is not that you don't believe in global warming thats fine it is the statement I no longer believe that humanity can have such a decisive effect on the Global climate

    The earth is a sphere all sphere's are finite therefore it is possible to cause some kind of effect on said sphere by human activity.
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  20. #50
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    I'm surprised that no one has posted this yet. As a former believer turned sceptic myself, I feel dejected by the whole mess that is AGW.

    Dear Curt:
    When I first joined the American Physical Society sixty-seven years ago it was much smaller, much gentler, and as yet uncorrupted by the money flood (a threat against which Dwight Eisenhower warned a half-century ago). Indeed, the choice of physics as a profession was then a guarantor of a life of poverty and abstinence—it was World War II that changed all that. The prospect of worldly gain drove few physicists. As recently as thirty-five years ago, when I chaired the first APS study of a contentious social/scientific issue, The Reactor Safety Study, though there were zealots aplenty on the outside there was no hint of inordinate pressure on us as physicists. We were therefore able to produce what I believe was and is an honest appraisal of the situation at that time. We were further enabled by the presence of an oversight committee consisting of Pief Panofsky, Vicki Weisskopf, and Hans Bethe, all towering physicists beyond reproach. I was proud of what we did in a charged atmosphere. In the end the oversight committee, in its report to the APS President, noted the complete independence in which we did the job, and predicted that the report would be attacked from both sides. What greater tribute could there be?

    How different it is now. The giants no longer walk the earth, and the money flood has become the raison d’être of much physics research, the vital sustenance of much more, and it provides the support for untold numbers of professional jobs. For reasons that will soon become clear my former pride at being an APS Fellow all these years has been turned into shame, and I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society.

    It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford’s book organizes the facts very well.) I don’t believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

    So what has the APS, as an organization, done in the face of this challenge? It has accepted the corruption as the norm, and gone along with it. For example:

    1. About a year ago a few of us sent an e-mail on the subject to a fraction of the membership. APS ignored the issues, but the then President immediately launched a hostile investigation of where we got the e-mail addresses. In its better days, APS used to encourage discussion of important issues, and indeed the Constitution cites that as its principal purpose. No more. Everything that has been done in the last year has been designed to silence debate

    2. The appallingly tendentious APS statement on Climate Change was apparently written in a hurry by a few people over lunch, and is certainly not representative of the talents of APS members as I have long known them. So a few of us petitioned the Council to reconsider it. One of the outstanding marks of (in)distinction in the Statement was the poison word incontrovertible, which describes few items in physics, certainly not this one. In response APS appointed a secret committee that never met, never troubled to speak to any skeptics, yet endorsed the Statement in its entirety. (They did admit that the tone was a bit strong, but amazingly kept the poison word incontrovertible to describe the evidence, a position supported by no one.) In the end, the Council kept the original statement, word for word, but approved a far longer “explanatory” screed, admitting that there were uncertainties, but brushing them aside to give blanket approval to the original. The original Statement, which still stands as the APS position, also contains what I consider pompous and asinine advice to all world governments, as if the APS were master of the universe. It is not, and I am embarrassed that our leaders seem to think it is. This is not fun and games, these are serious matters involving vast fractions of our national substance, and the reputation of the Society as a scientific society is at stake.

    3. In the interim the ClimateGate scandal broke into the news, and the machinations of the principal alarmists were revealed to the world. It was a fraud on a scale I have never seen, and I lack the words to describe its enormity. Effect on the APS position: none. None at all. This is not science; other forces are at work.

    4. So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation. I might note that it was not easy to collect the signatures, since you denied us the use of the APS membership list. We conformed in every way with the requirements of the APS Constitution, and described in great detail what we had in mind—simply to bring the subject into the open.<

    5. To our amazement, Constitution be damned, you declined to accept our petition, but instead used your own control of the mailing list to run a poll on the members’ interest in a TG on Climate and the Environment. You did ask the members if they would sign a petition to form a TG on your yet-to-be-defined subject, but provided no petition, and got lots of affirmative responses. (If you had asked about sex you would have gotten more expressions of interest.) There was of course no such petition or proposal, and you have now dropped the Environment part, so the whole matter is moot. (Any lawyer will tell you that you cannot collect signatures on a vague petition, and then fill in whatever you like.) The entire purpose of this exercise was to avoid your constitutional responsibility to take our petition to the Council.

    6. As of now you have formed still another secret and stacked committee to organize your own TG, simply ignoring our lawful petition.

    APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?

    I do feel the need to add one note, and this is conjecture, since it is always risky to discuss other people’s motives. This scheming at APS HQ is so bizarre that there cannot be a simple explanation for it. Some have held that the physicists of today are not as smart as they used to be, but I don’t think that is an issue. I think it is the money, exactly what Eisenhower warned about a half-century ago. There are indeed trillions of dollars involved, to say nothing of the fame and glory (and frequent trips to exotic islands) that go with being a member of the club. Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I’m not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.

    I want no part of it, so please accept my resignation. APS no longer represents me, but I hope we are still friends.
    Hal

    Harold Lewis is Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, former Chairman; Former member Defense Science Board, chmn of Technology panel; Chairman DSB study on Nuclear Winter; Former member Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards; Former member, President’s Nuclear Safety Oversight Committee; Chairman APS study on Nuclear Reactor Safety
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    Last edited by InsaneApache; 10-09-2010 at 20:30.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  21. #51
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I'm surprised that no one has posted this yet. As a former believer turned sceptic myself, I feel dejected by the whole mess that is AGW.
    because it has not been a surprise to me.

    my profile statement on AGW has not changed much in some time...........
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  22. #52
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    wow, just learned that the deception is now good for 4.48% of annual budget, that is 3 times our defence-budget to pay our socialism (only 1% of it doesn't go directly to the treac- I mean treasury)

    26.000.0000.000 euro, stolen each year, eco-tax alone
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-13-2010 at 13:44.

  23. #53
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Interesting....

    The debate about global warming has reached ridiculous proportions and is full of micro-thin half-truths and misunderstandings. I am a scientist who was on the carbon gravy train, understands the evidence, was once an alarmist, but am now a skeptic. Watching this issue unfold has been amusing but, lately, worrying. This issue is tearing society apart, making fools out of our politicians.

    Let’s set a few things straight.
    http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...odels-go-cold/

    I wonder if this little snippet of information will change anyone's mind?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

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  24. #54
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    interesting piece, and no, it hasn't changed my mind.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  25. #55
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Interesting....



    http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...odels-go-cold/

    I wonder if this little snippet of information will change anyone's mind?
    Nah the green khmer starts too early with terrifying kids, WAY before they start questioning what adults tell them. The adults who are still absolutely terrified of CO2 will probably never make a full recovery sadly

  26. #56
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Not any more than how much I change my mind of capitalism by reading the rant of some random capitalist who has turned socialist.

    Which is effectively zero. Or less than zero.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #57
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    If I was feeling cruel, I could surely produce an example of one denier who had changed his mind and realised the validity of the science on climate change with a quick Google search. As I am so good-natured, I'll be content to just concur with HoreTore's post and say that one dude changing his mind != not a change in the scientific consensus.

  28. #58
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    You mean the political consensus.

    Go ahead, be cruel. You never know you might even get me to change my mind back again.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  29. #59
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    If you do, can you promise not to write essays with a smug "I was once at the other side so therefore I know everything and you're ignorant if you disagree"-attitude? Oh, and without global conspiracy theories too?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #60
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Yeh I'd need such a promise as well :)

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