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Thread: Global Climate Disruption.

  1. #91
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Yes, when we need stuff, the market is best suited to give it to us.

    Other issues, however, are best solved by society(via the government or idealists). The market can't give everyone health treatment. The market cannot educate the public. The market cannot give us justice or safety.

    But to be honest, I'm not sure which category climate change falls under...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #92
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Not every scientist is 100% sure that evolution is correct.

    I still see no reason to teach it.
    Not all schools teach that god exists, but all schools do teach that we have to be absolutely terrified of CO2. Lying about the fact that there is no consensus is just as bad as not teaching the evolution-theory, even worse in fact as the hoax has much more direct impact

  3. #93
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    but all schools do teach that we have to be absolutely terrified of CO2.
    If you want to be taken seriously, Frags, I suggest that you quit the hyperbole.

    Here are the goals from my curriculum that concerns climate change and such:

    Quote Originally Posted by in science
    - Observe and give examples of how human activity has impacted on an area in nature, identify different interest groups views on the impact and suggest measures which can protect nature for future generations.
    Quote Originally Posted by in geography
    - Assess use and abuse of resources, the consequences that can have for the environment and society, and the conflicts that can lead to locally and globally.

    - Tell about nature with emphasis on inner and outer forces on the earth, movement in the air, the water circuit, weather, climate and vegetation, and discuss relationships between nature and society.
    Do note that "climate change" is never mentioned specifically, and these three goals are very broad. Oh, and this is for the 10th grade.

    As I see it, I'm not allowed to give high marks on the first goal if the student is unable to discuss at least one argument in favour of climate change as well as at least one that opposes it.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-20-2011 at 12:33.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #94
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Me using hyperbole that's funny, I'm not the one saying billions will die because of mass starvation and war IF WE DO NOT ACT RIGHT NOW

    I can't, been dead since 2000, the other hoax did it
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-20-2011 at 12:28.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Me using hyperbole that's funny, I'm not the one saying billions will die because of mass starvation and war IF WE DO NOT ACT RIGHT NOW

    I can't, been dead since 2000, the other hoax did it
    .....no comment on Norwegian schools not conforming to your description? None at all?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  6. #96
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    I can read the question but I can't read the desired answer so no no comment

  7. #97
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    As they say, follow the money....

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What is the link between a beautiful stretch of north Devon countryside, the brother of Diana, Princess of Wales, and that ever more curious body, the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change? The starting point for teasing out this riddle is a hefty new report just published by the IPCC on renewable energy. This has engulfed the IPCC in controversy yet again, after a preview of the report made headlines by claiming that, within 40 years, nearly 80 per cent of the world's energy needs could be met from renewable sources, most notably through a massive expansion of wind and solar power.

    What only came to light when the full report was published last week was the peculiar source of this extraordinarily ambitious claim. It was based solely on a paper co-authored last year by an employee of Greenpeace International and something called the European Renewable Energy Council. This Brussels-based body, heavily funded by the EU, lobbies the European Commission on behalf of all the main renewable industries, such as wind and solar. The chief author of the Greenpeace paper, Sven Teske, was also a lead author on Chapter 10 of the IPCC report, which means that the report's headline message came from a full-time environmental activist, supported by a lobby group representing those industries that stand most to benefit financially from its findings.

    Not surprisingly, expert critics of the IPCC have been quick to point out how this seems to reinforce the revelations 18 months ago, which did more to discredit the UN body's authority than anything in its history. At the centre of those scandals was the discovery that the more alarming predictions made by the IPCC's major 2007 report – such as a claim that most of the Himalayan glaciers would be gone by 2035 – were not based on proper science at all. They were simply scare stories originating from environmentalist lobby groups, used in a way that broke all the IPCC's own rules, which insist that its reports should be based only on properly accredited scientific studies.

    Adding to this was the unfavourable publicity also directed at that time at the IPCC's chairman, Dr Rajendra Pachauri. Yet in the preface to this new report, he is given special thanks for all he did to bring it about. Not only that – he also wrote an introduction to the controversial Greenpeace paper on which its headline claim was based.

    As the IPCC's supposedly impartial chairman, and arguably the world's most influential public official, Dr Pachauri – whose Delhi-based research institute is heavily involved in various renewable energy projects – has also written forewords to two earlier Greenpeace publications.

    So preoccupied have the sceptics been by the questionable provenance of the IPCC's new report, however, that they have not yet focused on what is, arguably, an even greater scandal. This is the astonishingly one-sided nature of the rest of the report, which reads less like a scientific document and more like a propaganda puff for the world's renewable industries.

    A long chapter on wind energy, for instance, brushes aside some of the more peripheral objections raised to wind turbines, such as that they kill vast numbers of birds and bats, or have a damaging effect on house prices. And in all its 108 pages, there is no real attempt to address the central objection to wind turbines, which is that they are a ludicrously inefficient and expensive way to produce electricity – so unreliable, due to the intermittency of the wind, that the derisory amount of power they produce can make no significant contribution to meeting the world's energy needs.

    Nowhere does the report properly address the major defect of these turbines, that they only generate, on average, 25 per cent or less of their nominal capacity. The figures the report gives for this, in a brief passage that skirts round the issue, are absurdly exaggerated. It claims that US turbines achieve 30 per cent of their capacity, without pointing out that the output of all 12,000 turbines in America equates on average to no more than that of two large coal-fired power stations. And nowhere does the chapter mention the mind-boggling cost of these machines, which no one would dream of building without the aid of subsidies that in Britain amount to 100 per cent of the value of the electricity they produce (and 200 per cent for offshore turbines).

    Step out of this foetid IPCC hothouse into the real world and consider what is going on at Fullabrook Down in north Devon, where they are constructing what will soon be the largest onshore wind factory in England. The developers boast of how the 22 giant 3MW turbines they are building on the hills between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe, at a cost of more than £60 million, will have the "capacity" to generate 66MW of electricity, and how they will contribute £100,000 a year to "community projects" to buy off the hostility of local residents.

    In reality, this wind farm's output is not likely to average more than 16.5MW, or 25 per cent of its capacity (the average output of UK turbines last year was only 21 per cent), an amount so pitifully small that it represents barely 2 per cent of the output of a medium-sized gas-fired power station. Yet for this, the developers can hope to earn £13 million a year, of which £6.5 million will be subsidy and of which the £100,000 they hand back to the local community will represent well under 1 per cent.

    Another of the scores of sites across Britain where wind farm plans are now arousing huge anger and unhappiness among locals is the Althorp estate in Northamptonshire, where Earl Spencer is hoping that a French company, EDF, will be allowed to spend £2.5 million to erect 13 2MW turbines, towering 385ft over the Vale of Avon Dassett. These will provide their owners with subsidies of around £650,000 a year, for producing a quantity of power so small that its fluctuating contribution to the grid will scarcely register. Compare this to the nearly 900MW output of the £400 million gas-fired power station recently opened near Plymouth and it can be seen that the capital cost of these wind farms, for the puny amount of electricity they produce, is around 10 times as much. The expense of the Welsh Assembly's £2 billion plan to build 800 turbines, up to 415ft high, across a vast stretch of mid-Wales, plus 100 miles of pylons to connect them to the grid, will be a staggering 15 times higher than would be needed to produce the same amount of power from gas, without subsidy.

    These are the kind of hard facts that appear nowhere in the IPCC's latest propaganda exercise. Its only purpose is to provide politicians, such as our Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne, with a piece of paper they can wave to claim that their dreams of covering the Earth with wind turbines have been fully vindicated by "the world's top climate scientists".

    Our Government, supported by virtually all our politicians, hopes to see us spend £100 billion on wind turbines in the next nine years. Even if this was practically achievable, it would necessitate building a score of gas-fired power stations just to provide instant back-up for whenever the wind failed to blow at the correct speeds. These would have to be kept spinning all the time, wholly negating any theoretical reduction in Britain's emissions of CO2.

    Truly, this infatuation with the chimera of wind power ranks alongside the creation of the collapsing euro as one of the supreme follies of our age. It is, of course, delightful that Dr Pachauri's latest effort should coincide with those warnings from an array of US scientists that the current dramatic decline in solar activity might herald the approach of a "mini-ice age". But as the great global warming scare continues to fade away, the real problem is that our politicians have so much collective ego invested in this delusion that, even when hell freezes over, they will still find it impossible to admit they got it wrong.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...-our-time.html
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  8. #98
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Do a little google for 'emmision rights', making people absolutely terrified of CO2 is big business. Mankind needs religion sadly, as a bishop told a Dutch landlord (real story) ' You keep them poor and I'll keep them stupid'

    'But as the great global warming scare continues to fade away, the real problem is that our politicians have so much collective ego invested in this delusion that, even when hell freezes over, they will still find it impossible to admit they got it wrong.'

    Meh when most people realise it's all a hoax said politicians have long be rewarded by the lobbyists
    Last edited by Fragony; 06-19-2011 at 13:14.

  9. #99
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Interesting interview with a serious scientist, probably his last one for obvious reason, but than again maybe not as he seems too established to be ridiculed by the green rapturists. That he calls himself a heretic is very telling

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...n-2224912.html

  10. #100
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    I note the comments have been closed.

    "The scientists who handle these models point out that they can accurately match up the computer predictions to real climatic trends in the past, and that it is only when they add CO2 influences to the models that they can explain recent global warming."

    What a condescending prat!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  11. #101
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    This is a very good interview and article. It's sad that someone with a sharp mind like FD has to resort to childish arguments to avoid answering straightforward questions. But he is 87 years old so perhaps his mind is going or gone. That's not ad hom, it's just what happens at that age. Be that a lesson to us all - speak/act while you're brain is still functioning properly as nature will take its course as you age.

    I could be wrong that his mind is going. He could have had this flaw all his life. According to Wikipedia he is a "non-denominational Christian" and was awarded the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion in 2000. Neither of these things would I want on my epitaph.
    Just about sums up the quality of the "consensus"

    How dare a Christian call himself a man of science, or a man of science not agree with the consensus?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  12. #102
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Another setback for doomday-preachers http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...e-Age-way.html

    Not that it's going to stop them from repeating we are all going to diehieee IF WE DO NOT ACT RIGHT

  13. #103

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Another setback for doomday-preachers http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...e-Age-way.html

    Not that it's going to stop them from repeating we are all going to diehieee IF WE DO NOT ACT RIGHT
    Lol, I am from America and even I know the daily mail is trash.


  14. #104
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Lol, I am from America and even I know the daily mail is trash.
    They are more likely to print of course as they never believed in the great scare. Don't care who prints it
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-06-2011 at 15:04.

  15. #105
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Lol, I am from America and even I know the daily mail is trash.
    You mean thrash! like trash metal. Daily Mail is awesome!


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  16. #106
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Lol, I am from America and even I know the daily mail is trash.
    does that change the fact that multiple studies from NASAA and elsewhere have found what *may* be the start of a new grand-minimum, which may result in us limeys skating across the Thames once more?

    play the ball, not the man.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-06-2011 at 17:02.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  17. #107
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    play the man, not the ball.
    Isn't it the other way around, just sayin' (unless you are Nigel de Jong)

  18. #108
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Isn't it the other way around, just sayin' (unless you are Nigel de Jong)
    lol, quite. you can tell i'm no football fan!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #109
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Space is cool http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow...192334971.html

    Not that it's going to stop the Green Khmer from lying about the climate but still, it's Nasa

  20. #110

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    does that change the fact that multiple studies from NASAA and elsewhere have found what *may* be the start of a new grand-minimum, which may result in us limeys skating across the Thames once more?

    play the ball, not the man.
    Link the actual studies, not unintelligible crap a reporter cranks out after skimming the abstract and extrapolating it.

    EDIT: No one should trust any "science" section of any newspaper, no matter how reputable. They always get it wrong, they always exaggerate, they always give half truths. Take your time on google scholar.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 07-30-2011 at 04:57.


  21. #111
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    It's linked right in the article.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  22. #112
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gutmensch View Post
    Link the actual studies, not unintelligible crap a reporter cranks out after skimming the abstract and extrapolating it.

    EDIT: No one should trust any "science" section of any newspaper, no matter how reputable. They always get it wrong, they always exaggerate, they always give half truths. Take your time on google scholar.
    Does peer-reviewed don't matter anymore? It doesn't, but still

  23. #113

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    It's linked right in the article.
    What? I have looked the page like 10 times and I still don't see where they put the link. Oh well, thanks for it. I will read it and see it. From a slight glance it is only 10 pages with one page obviously being sources. So to me this already screams, that it isn't exactly the most extensive paper considering how long the IPCC reports are.


  24. #114
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gutmensch View Post
    What? I have looked the page like 10 times and I still don't see where they put the link. Oh well, thanks for it. I will read it and see it. From a slight glance it is only 10 pages with one page obviously being sources. So to me this already screams, that it isn't exactly the most extensive paper considering how long the IPCC reports are.
    A page devoted to sources just tend to be just there, common practise and all that. That is cool because you get to see wether or not conclusions are based on a column in a hiking magazine

  25. #115
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gutmensch View Post
    What? I have looked the page like 10 times and I still don't see where they put the link. Oh well, thanks for it. I will read it and see it. From a slight glance it is only 10 pages with one page obviously being sources. So to me this already screams, that it isn't exactly the most extensive paper considering how long the IPCC reports are.
    let me get this straight; you doubt the veracity of brand new scientific research because it does not have as many pages as some vaguely related ten year old research?

    that's genius!
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-30-2011 at 15:20.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #116
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    That is cool because you get to see wether or not conclusions are based on a column in a hiking magazine
    Ouch

    AII
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  27. #117

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    A page devoted to sources just tend to be just there, common practise and all that. That is cool because you get to see wether or not conclusions are based on a column in a hiking magazine
    That seemed oddly specific, is there a paper that did that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    let me get this straight; you doubt the veracity of brand new scientific research because it does not have as many pages as some vaguely related ten year old research?

    that's genius!
    LOL yes by saying that it doesn't seem extensive on the first glace considering the subject means "I THINK THIS IS FALSE."

    That strawman was almost a bit insulting.

    If you admit it is brand new scientific research than you have already failed by waving it around as a smoking gun.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 08-02-2011 at 01:56.


  28. #118
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.


  29. #119
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gutmensch View Post
    That seemed oddly specific, is there a paper that did that?
    Yep.

    It was kinda long as well.

    Take a guess.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  30. #120

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    So my skepticism was correct?

    That's genius!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yep.

    It was kinda long as well.

    Take a guess.
    Seriously, the IPCC report?


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