Preview: The Qarthadastim

[Zarax]

Err, no.
This is as much a compromise situation as it is an historical readjustment.
Given that there is one less province available than in RTW this is what resulted from long debates between those who wanted to fuse sardinia and corsica in one province and the quarthadastim members who wanted 3 provinces for the island.

I'm sure you can imagine the situation, while for the units I feel Tanit is better suited to answer.

[[cF]HanBaal]

oh i see. no extra province then? :(

It will indeed look very weird to make both coastal areas one province (and even more weird their inlands?!) since each island had its own particular history, both before and at the begining of the game (main rules on map definition for EB if things stayed the same since EB1). Korsim and Sardin were 2 distinct phoenician/karthadastim colonies with 2 diferent administrations as the game starts and this change is very negative to the realistic part of the game in these particular islands. In my opinion of course. Even today Corsica belongs to France and Sardinia to Italy. They're not even crossable by foot or small boats.

I would leave it as is if the team decides to not give the islands 3 provinces (and the lack of slots probably justifies it). Though of course 3 provinces would be the perfect solution. Where did Augila province slot went then?

EDIT: nevermind, reread the preview and the new province is in numidia.

Cumps

[Zarax]

For most of our timeframe sardinia and corsica were ruled as one province, Alalia was just a former etruscan colony that passed into carthaginian hands before our timeframe.
The strait of bonifacio is passable by small boats in summer (although knowledge of the currents is necessary) as it is short and relatively shallow.

Today's national situation does not apply, the two islands are still culturally close to each other than to the respective mainlands and natives can understand each other easier by speaking their local dialects than by relying on french and italian, also during the roman republic the islands formed one single province, Sardinia et Corsica.
The only period of time in which they were ruled separately was the few years between the end of the 1st punic war and the truceless war, otherwise from the 5th century BC onwards the islands (or better, their coastal areas) were a single puno-etruscan first and later just carthaginian domain.

[[cF]HanBaal]

"from the 5th century BC onwards the islands (or better, their coastal areas) were a single puno-etruscan first and later just carthaginian domain"

I didn't know this part in particular. I had the impression that Sardinia for example was never under a joint "puno etruscan domain" according to what i read. Can you point me where did you read this? I'm not doubting i'm just curious. I really thought i read somewhere them having 2 different administrations and backgrounds. Sardinia being much more punic influenced (and basically only colonised by phoenicians from the start) than Corsica, which was initially a Greek (Phocaen) colony and had a much more mixed population (phoenicians, etruscans and greeks).

Even militarily, during the 1st punic war, the romans conquered Corsica in 259BC, even if temporarily, but never Sardinia (a failed invasion at 256BC). Only after the 1st punic war, in 238BC, they would take advantage of the mercenaries revolt and treacherously claim the islands from the carthaginians, somewhat similar to what started the 1st punic war at Messana in Sicily, and form "the single province, Sardinia et Corsica" as you rightfully said.

Regarding the crossing between the 2 islands with small boats you're probably right. I just had the impression the currents were too strong considering the number of roman fleets wrecked around the islands (n00bs).

cumps

[Zarax]

During the first punic war the romans were much better than the carthaginians at sinking their fleets, mostly because they stubbornly ignored advice from greek sailors until they lost a couple hundred ships that way... The waters between Sardinia and Corsica are quite calm in summer (even today small boats often cross between the islands) but treacherous in winter (I tried them in a cruise-ship size ferry and it wasn't pleasant despite the ship size).

Carthaginians and Etruscans shared at some levels control of the islands since the battle of Alalia, which marked the end of phocean attempts at colonizing the islands and actually made them evacuate to Massilia, some historians points at the lamines of Pyrgi as an example.
Until the 3rd century BC the estruscans were of course more active in the north-east (Alalia, Olbia) while the carthaginians in the west (Turris, Tharros, Cornus, Sulci, Nora, Karali) but until the losses of late 4th and early 3d century BC both powers were active in both islands, although etruscan presence was mostly merchantile compared to punic one.
Also, the roman conquest of Alalia in 259BC should not be mistaken for any kind of widespread control, their early attempts on the interior costed high losses and the strategy basically shifted to just preventing the carthaginians from using their thyrrenian sea ports.

As for sources, they are mostly in italian, I'd suggest Lilliu and Barreca as two of the most respected archeologists of the area, "Sailors, shepherds and conquerors" is the only english book I'm aware of but not nearly as accurate.

[[cF]HanBaal]

I've been reading a little more online and you're right when you say the interior of Corsica resisted bravely to roman invasions. Only after more than 100 years and with heavy losses they secured the inland.

But the question here that i couldn't find is if under puno-etruscan and later carthaginian control (at 272BC in particular) the whole island of Corsica was under punic control or not. I read a lot of mentions to resistance from the Sardinian interior tribes (though by 272BC relations were peaceful), but none from Corsica's. Judging from what you wrote i would say the situation under punic control was similar in both isles (peaceful relations yet independent)

Both options (2 provinces=2 isles or 2 provinces=coastal+inland of both isles) seem a bit short but, in light of the new information you provided (crossable straits, similar resistance/independence from the interior tribes) both become reasonable considering 3 provinces is out of the question. In fact, now we would need 4 provinces to represent the most accurate situation . However, and this is my personal opinion, i would still keep the 1st option and the reason is many regions in the map share the same problem of the existence of mountainous tribes who remain independent at some sort and they don't get the same treatment as here. Isn't this opening a precedent? The different colonisation/military history/ownership history up to 272BC would be another solid reason. But again, both options are acceptable.

Thanks for the sources but my italian is close to non-existant. I'll try that english source if i get the chance.

cumps

[Zarax]

The difference here is the amount of resistance put.
Consider that the romans took longer to pacify the interior of the islands than they did with stronger populations like the celtiberians and the fact that the area hosted a pretty unique civilization that left monuments still visible today.

[[cF]HanBaal]

The difference here is the amount of resistance put.
Consider that the romans took longer to pacify the interior of the islands than they did with stronger populations like the celtiberians and the fact that the area hosted a pretty unique civilization that left monuments still visible today.

I could argue back with the amount of effort put :)

And I think you chose a bad example. Rome waged war on Iberia almost continuously since 218BC up to 19BC (and their presence in northeastern Iberia dates from even earlier). That's 200 years. And we're talking of several consular armies lost in the process to the point that back in rome people refused to enlist to fight in Iberia. I think it was Julius Caesar who once said about Iberia: "First to be invaded, last to be conquered".

Of course we're talking of different scales. The iberians could field large armies too.

cumps

[Zarax]

Well, I did point at a slightly different scale, using the celtiberians as example.
Of course direct comparisons are not adequate but when you scale things properly you'll realize that it wasn't an easy war and kept tied 1-2 legions for around a century, which is not a small feat considering that the largest nuragic effort in our timeframe consisted of around 10000 soldiers (if we are to believe roman sources), most of which were light armed (no easy access to tin and iron supplies, copper alone is a bad choice to equip an army).

[[cF]HanBaal]

Impressive feets indeed. I enjoy reading these heroic victories from poorly armed armies from underdog nations defending their homelands.

Reminds me of 10.000 also poorly armed Lusitanians under Viriato, my nation's first hero, who for several years crushed roman armies, defensive initially but later even conquered regions from the romans. Was just revisiting his deeds:

- Praetor Gaius Vetilius with his 10.000 men in 147BC (4000 killed including the Praetor)

- Plaucius Hipseus in 146 BC (his successor) was also defeated along his 11.300 army, 2 times

- Then Viriato went to the next province and defeated the local Praetor Claudius Unimanus and his successor Nigidius also 2 times in 145BC.

- Then Rome sends a Proconsular army under Quintus Fabius Maximus Aemilianus of 15.000 men, 2.000cav to join with local Praetor Gaius Laelius army who were also defeated in 143BC, twice, the 2nd being a total victory.

- Then Rome sends another Proconsular army under Quintus Fabius Maximus Servilianus (a famed general) with an army of 18.000infantry, 1.600cav and 10 elephants who are not only defeated twice in 141BC but the remaining forces completely trapped, making Rome sue for peace and name Viriato "a friend of Rome" for sparing their lives. Peace would only last a year until Rome renewed the war (how unsurprising) and eventually bribed some diplomat envoys to assassinate Viriato in his sleep

Impressive but a bit frustating. Iberians had no rest during their conquest. Almost every year Rome sent tenths of thousands of fresh soldiers to different front lines (the Numantine War was going at the same time)

cumps

[Zarax]

No power of the time could match roman manpower, no matter how many legions you crushed more would come until they won by exhausting the adversary.

[fightermedic]

tell that to phyrrus and hannibal ;)
sometimes i really AM curious how the world would look like had hannibal been properly supported by the carthagian council....

[B-Wing]

I've lost track of the on-going discussion/debate between Zarax and HanBaal. What exactly is the issue or question at hand?

[Tanit]

The issue was the provincial division and representation of Sardinia and Corsica.

[Bucefalo]

I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

[moonburn]

Thing is that you would historically have needed to subdue both at the same time, romans had to learn that the hard way.

There are records of one roman campaign that was successful in northern sardinia only to be ambushed in southern corsica when they stopped there to resupply.

technically with the permanent stone forts one should be able to simulate the problems of taking over the entire island

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

[[cF]HanBaal]

I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

Exactly my thoughts. A precedent has been made and what will happen in the rest of the map remains to be seen. I didn't even know about this possibility of Permanent Stone Forts who would indeed be a better solution too in my opinion.

I think what the team wants, and made a priority of, is to represent the Nuraghi native population and their hinterland in both isles who remained virtually unconquered by 272BC. And that is great. But by doing that they will eliminate the importance of Corsica since now if you conquer Nora in southern Sardinia automatically (coastal) Corsica goes into your hands (?) which is peculiar at least. This would also clash with the history of both islands as i already mentioned (until the battle of Alalia, Corsica was in greek hands and Sardinia was in phoenician hands; in the first punic war romans took Corsica briefly but never Sardinia; the population in coastal Sardinia was basically phoenician while in Corsica was a mix of greeks, etruscans and phoenicians; even the revolts of the native population in both islands were not simultaneous i believe).

Concluding, any of the solutions will not be perfectly balanced but with the possibility of Permanent Stone Forts - one on the hinterland of each island, remaining 2 provinces to represent the coastal colonies of each island - it would get as close to perfection as it could, IF these Permanent Stone Forts represent more than a simple military presence. Question: By conquering them, the province in which they stand will get additional bonuses (law, happiness, trade, farming)?

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe

tell that to phyrrus and hannibal ;)
sometimes i really AM curious how the world would look like had hannibal been properly supported by the carthagian council....

That sir, is the billion dollar question. Incredible decisions were made by then. It wasn't lack of resources who stopped Hanno's party from supporting Hannibal in Italy as he requested right after Cannae, sending his younger brother Mago to Karthadast personally. Instead Hanno sent a large army under Hasdrubal Gisgo to Iberia to take control there (and disrupt the solid Iberian alliances with Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal who was in perfect control of the whole region and also militarily successful till then. Polybius describes this perfectly); at the same time he also sent another large (unsuccessful) expeditions to Sicily and Sardinia (read somewhere that as much as 500 ships were in that one). Maybe Zarax has access to more information on that Sardinian invasion.

Concluding, the resentment from Hanno and his ruling party to Hannibal's father coming from the 1st Punic War/Mercenaries War, as well as, in my opinion, envy for their enourmous successes, both father and son, was the key factor for this war's fate.


Cumps

[Tellos Athenaios]

This is really simple: there are two slots to represent Corsica & Sardinia, just like there were in EB 1. But the historians for Carthage in particular felt that what EB 1 did left something to be desired mainly because the inland regions did not come into play, and the close connection between the two islands was not at all obvious.

[Zarax]

Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

As for the diversion of carthaginian reinforcements to Sardinia it most likely was because it was seen as a golden opportunity to recover the island, given that Hampsicora managed to unite a good share of the nuragic tribes and the roman force there was weakened by disease.
Unfortunately for the carthaginians a storm blew the fleet towards the balearic islands, allowing the romans to defeat the two allies piecemeal as they failed to reunite in time.

Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

EDIT: for those interested in Carthage I'd suggest reading the books by Dexter Hoyos, they are well sourced and pretty well written as well.

[[cF]HanBaal]

Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

While it is true the greeks evacuated the island (though i would believe some of them, including half-breeds, would stay around as it happens in every decolonisation process) it is said it were the etruscans who took control of Corsica (others say it was a joint puno-etruscan control), while the phoenicians stayed with full control of Sardinia. A clear distinction in population and customs must have been present then, at least in the coastal colonies. It is not known exactly up until when they kept firm control of the island (you mentioned 280BC?) but in 452BC Syracusan ships attacked both Etruria and Corsica which leads to indicate Corsica was under Etruscan control.

Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

Wether Hanno strategy was the best or not I dunno. I'm with Hannibal, i would concentrate my forces on the enemy's heart, especially considering it was bleeding as never before.

cumps

[Zarax]

Excavations in Alalia found a pretty even mix of punic and etruscan remains in corsica, while in sardinia etruscan ones dwindle the more west you go (although in some nuragic villages they were more prominent than punic ones).

As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

[Paltmull]

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe

Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

[Zarax]

With 20 factions it was a hard choice, 31 gave us more room but still we would have liked more slots.

[Paltmull]

Ok, now I'm confused. What I meant was: Will the Arevaci be a faction in EBII? If so, when was that confirmed? I can't remember hearing about it.

[Tanit]

We have only chosen and implemented a small number of the new faction slots, most of which have been revealed. For the remaining faction slots we are saving work on them for after first release to speed up development, although practice development threads have been done for most of the possible faction choices, these remaining possibilities include the Arevaci, it is possible that someone may have leaked them as a confirmed faction as a result.

[Paltmull]

Ok, thanks :)

[[cF]HanBaal]

As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

Nope.

"For years past they have been trying to force me back by refusing me reinforcements and money; but now they recall me no longer by indirect means, but in plain words. Hannibal has been conquered not by the Roman people whom he defeated so many times in battle and put to flight, but by the envy and continual disparagement of the Carthaginian senate. At this unlovely and shameful return of mine it will not be Scipio who will be wild with triumph and delight, but rather Hanno, whose only way of ruining me and my house has been by ruining Carthage”-Livy’s reports of Hannibal’s response to Carthage’s recall order


Carthaginian political will was embodied in the ruling oligarchy. While there was a Carthaginian Senate, the real power in Carthage was with the inner "Council of 30 Nobles" and the board of judges from ruling families known as the "Hundred and Four". These two bodies consisted of the wealthy, commercial families of Carthage. Regarding the senate, two political factions operated in Carthage: the war party, also known as the "Barcids" and the peace party led by Hanno the Great. Hanno had been instrumental in denying Hannibal’s requested reinforcement following the battle at Cannae. Hannibal attacked Saguntum (who were attacking their iberian allies, the Tordoletes) without the full backing of Carthaginian oligarchy and this presented them with the possibility of war with Rome or loss of prestige in Iberia, where the virtually unlimited silver mines helped their decision. When roman diplomats went to the Carthaginian Senate and declared war, they accepted. The oligarchy and not Hannibal controlled the strategic resources of Carthage. Hannibal constantly sought reinforcement from either Iberia or North Africa. In Iberia, the turmoil provoked by the army sent by the Senate under Hasdrubal Gisgo to control the Iberian holdings, who mistreated several of the Iberian warlords allied to Hannibal as related by Polybius, as well as roman presence north of the Ebro, delayed some years the initial plan of reinforcements by Hasdrubal Barca to Italy by the same route through the Alps. And in Carthage, the commercial interests of the Carthaginian oligarchy led by Hanno, as well as envy and resentment to the Barcas coming from the 1st Punic War, dictated the reinforcement of Iberia, as well as Sicily and Sardinia, rather than Hannibal throughout the duration of the campaign.

To better understand Hanno's party dominance and where this own personal envy and resentment comes from, that compromised both wars, I recommend reading more about the first Punic War, the Mercenaries War and the departure of the Barcas to Iberia. I'll search a good source and post it here when i have more time.

Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

lol. I only mentioned the Arevaci cause moonburn mentioned them before. i dont know if they will be in game, though im pretty sure another Iberian faction will make it.

cumps

[[cF]HanBaal]

Excavations in Alalia found a pretty even mix of punic and etruscan remains in corsica, while in sardinia etruscan ones dwindle the more west you go (although in some nuragic villages they were more prominent than punic ones).

Nice info, but the doubt remains on who was actually in control of Corsica. The excavations confirm that coastal Sardinia was mainly colonised by phoenicians and consequently under their control. But what about Corsica? The only leading clue i found was that attack in 452 BC by Syracusan ships on both the Etrurian and Corsican coasts which leads to believe that Etruscans were in basic control of the island. I also read that it was a common agreement after Alalia that Carthage would keep Sardinia and Etruscans would keep Corsica. Of course a great deal of interacting between the islands must have happened due to the peaceful relations and treaties between the two nations who would pass on to the roman days when they absorbed Etruria.

[moonburn]

roman propaganda ... as far as i´ve read hannibal (or even hamilcar some say) made the original plan of unleashing an army in italy to recover the old lands back while the romans where busy trying to defend their allies (the source of their manpower)

on his trip to italy hannibal refused to meet a roman army wich in case of victory would have allowed him easyer acess to italy (but also a known route and therefore organised oposition instead of being behinde enemy lines in some ways the same as cesar made where the importance was the element of surprise and speed and not winning by winning) one should also remember that when he refused batle in those circumstances he still had the 22.000 iberians he eventually sent back and his entire elephant corps (wich should have allowed him a win that army was just there to delay him i believe )

so claims that there where intercine political wars in carthage when presented by the romans should be frowned uppon remember that scipius gained his name by facing the greatest threat that rome had ever met so any way to make the threat even bigger (by slandering the charties as a whole and making hannibal more capable...) would mean that scipius would receive greater honours

comunication problems ? ofc intercine and sacrificing carthaginian honour for personal grudges ... i´ll have that with salt please! the importance of sardinia iberia and sicily where tremendous for the carthaginians
also the notion that allies could be kept while hannibal was out of iberia and there wasn´t any carthie army there is a bit ridiculous probably they where sent there (the armies) because as soon as hannibal left iberia several warlords started to plot against the carthaginians interests remember the carthies as a whole where merchants so not highly respected by warrior cultures such as the celtiberians only hannibal was because he was a proven warrior so to keep control of iberia you needed something those warlords respected and that was soldiers even if hannibal had left a son of hamilcar and a brother in charge he wasn´t probably as highly admired or respected as hannibal and therefore several tribes probably considered that they could take them on (see the way the romans that where far ruthless where continously challanged by the local tribes even as far as iulius cesar time where every year a group of lusitanians would gather and start pillaging the southern lands)

so the lack of suport of the senate of carthage if it had existed was probably respecting a greater strategic design to rebuild the carthaginian power by trying to recover sardinia corsica and syracuse or desrupting the roman web of allies (such as bribing a few instead of using the gold to recruit more mercenaries) remember the 2nd punic war was after the mercenary wars so probably the senate was also a bit "afraid" to rely so heavily on mercenaries while the mercenaries where also less willing to fight for carthage after such a war so the hability of carthage to get lybians greeks and others to fight for them was restrained by both the employeers fear of future rebellions as well as the employees fear of not getting payed

it´s easy to oversimply things that at the time that they are being made have 100 possible ramifications

after canae hannibal had no siege engines but what stoped him of building them ? i mean there´s tree´s in italy and engineers and large animals ...

also the army that tryed to invade sardinia where actually hannibal reenforcements that the senate of carthage where sending him to keep the pressure over the romans while another army was destroyed trying to reenforce hannibal fallowing the same route (the alps) and that ambush somehow sealed the fait of the carthies in the iberian peninsula

as for the arevaci i was here when a few people made strong points towards several factions and the arevaci thread received alot of positive criticism by the team members making it clear that the arevavi where undoudabtly one of the factions that deserved the spot (i mean cheack the map when the game is loading there´s a slithly diferent colour in celtiberia meaning that whoever made that map at the time he made it was considering the arevaci a viable faction)

sorry for the long walltext of supositions and halftrues but thats my point on the subject (altough not my entire crazy theory with no historical way of being verified/confirmed)

[Tanit]

While I agree that Livy is often untrustworthy, I put a lot of faith in Polybius.

As for the different colour in celtiberia. Back in 0.7 of EB, the Iberians were a joint faction consisting of several provinces, including celtiberia. Later the faction was reworked to fit the theme of EB by only representing one group of Iberians rather than all Iberians in a manner similar to RTW vanilla.