Preview: The Qarthadastim

[[cF]HanBaal]

Polybius, on the absence of any other contemporary source and on the fact that he wasn't roman neither carthaginian, is indeed the most reliable source, even if working for the romans. His greek passion in the search for truth visiting personally the places and routes Hannibal took, collecting physical evidences like those plates where Hannibal wrote his army's numbers and taking testemonies from people from those same places is remarkable. He even later in his life followed the steps of Hanno the Navigator sailing along the Moroccan and Mauritanian atlantic coast.

Livy on the other hand was a much more passionate and biased born latin, besides writing at a much more distant time. However, since Polybius account of the 2nd punic war became fragmented after Cannae, we are left with none other than Livy for the most part of events since his work remains fully preserved. What is positive though is that one of Livy's main source regarding the 2nd punic war was Polybius and both their narratives, up to Cannae, are oftenly carbon copies. So we can assume that Livy's account post-Cannae should not be taken entirely with "a grain of salt" as moonburn suggests. Livy even had an advantage as he used more sources, including a very important one, Coelius Antipater, who followed Silenos, one of the historiographers who accompanied Hannibal during his campaign and who was also used by Polybius. Coelius wrote about the second punic war in 7 books, who are now unfortunately lost. In this way Hannibal's quotations like the one I presented are very possibly true, or at least, very close to his actual words.

When reading Livy you must distinguish the parts where he makes judgements of character, personal opinions and engrandment of anything that would embolden his own nation, from facts and quotations from older sources he could not alter much due to the distance in time that separated him from these events. Most of the critics about Livy are regarding his early works about the foundation of Rome where almost no sources were available and he gave his imagination a lot of wings. Being contemporary of Augustus and his period of success as well as the brink of the Christian Era helped emphasize his works.

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[olly]

Just wanted to say thank you for the preview. My favourite 'big' faction of all time and it looks smashing. Thanks

[Cadwalader]

Oh, EB team, you're spoiling us!

Thanks for another interesting and deeply satisfying preview. I'm as amazed as ever about the work you put into your mod.

[moonburn]

sorry for my outburst but people are seing carthage by the roman point of view and forgetting a few things that might or might not have influenced the carthaginian decisions during the entire war and therefore continue to criticise the poenii senate without giving them a chance
one of the best quotes in the entire game is "don´t wish ill uppon an enemy, plan it" and somehow this seems something that fit the chartaginians well enough so if i was the senate of carthage (or a member of it) there aren´t that many things i would have done diferently based on the time and place of the events and the limited control that a group of people standing in africa can have over an army of men in italy and colonies all over the western mediterrenian and friends and allies from diferent places asking for help

carthage wasn´t as wealthy as prior to the 1st punic war (per se) thats why they needed the silver mines of iberia so sending armies to iberia to secure them seems perfectly sensible expecially because their allies in iberia where less then trustworthy barbarians who only knew loyalty by either iron or gold (and lets face it they could get more gold by taking control of the mines and siding with the romans as scipius did towards the end when he brought several of the punic allies to his side) "senate view" if i was a poenii and in no way an attempt to disvirtuate the celtiberian and iberian allies of carthage

also i bet that the mercenary wars left a bad taste in carthaginian mouths so at the start of the war they probably weren´t so willingly to trust so much in mercenaries as before and instead rellyed more on the iberian allies (and even so hannibal sent 22.000 of them back because he didn´t trusted them)

on the mercenary side they knew the roman fame in war and probably knew what had happened after the 1st punic war so they probably weren´t so willingly to join the poennii in a war where their chances of where survival where not so appealling and there was a chance they wouldn´t get payed after the war (probably the greek and lybian mercenaries ) so carthage hability to raise armies was also ampered it took hannibal a few victories before the mercenaries saw that they had a chance at victory (and plundering of rome) and started to enlist

as for reenforcement armies it seems hannibal brother left iberia fleeing scipio because he was turning the iberians against the carthaginians so hardly the senates fault he was ambushed as for the armie leaving from africa and then turning to sardinia it seems perfectly plausible that having a base in sardinia to suport hannibal and acess to the nurighian mercenaries would be a smart move on the long run


it wasn´t the poenii senate fault that the romans decided to wage an atriction war after canae that they didn´t sued for peace or that they stoped trying to defeat hannibal in a pitched batle and instead went to iberia and africa to undermine hannibal´s suport in africa and iberia and it wasn´t the poenii senate fault that the makedonians didn´t joined the war in italy either so what could the senate do ? i mean diferently from what they did during the war ?

had hannibal won in zuma what would have happened ? the poenii wouldn´t get their iberian concenssions backs sardinia and sicily where lost the allies where spent and the numidians where turned into the roman side so even if hannibal had won that batle it was just postponing what inevitably happened after because carthage couldn´t "harvest gold" from trade with it´s ports blockaded and with no gold no way to continue to hire mercenaries

[wudang_clown]

My regards to the EB II Team for all the work!

Preview holds brilliant features, absolutely fantastic work, guys. :)

[[cF]HanBaal]

what could the senate do ? i mean diferently from what they did during the war ?

One of the things that strikes me as odd in humanity is that there are people who not only make bad decisions, but even knowing the outcome of bad decisions will still do them.

Let me refute some of your critics by parts begining with your questioning of the army at Massilia ignored by Hannibal as well as your support to the decision of not sending Hannibal immediate reinforcements after Cannae as he requested.

The key word is time. Time was of the essence and that's why, at the early stages of the war, Hannibal not only ignored the army who landed at Massilia when he was, we must say, already a few days of march past them and heading for the Alps - and this way avoiding the consular army ready on Sicily to land in Africa and otherwise return to Northern Italy to confront him and his new allied Celts of northern Italy - but also completed his first objective, to bring the main stage of war and the terror and devastation associated with it to Italy itself, while saving his home city from this and a probable siege.

After Cannae Hannibal needed immediate reinforcements for 2 reasons. First, Northern Italy was already in a turmoil as proved by the legions totally destroyed in the same year of Cannae at the hands of the northern allied Celts. With Southern Italy properly garrisoned and his army replenished, he could finally march on what would be the main stage of war for the rest of the campaign having all his sides secured. That's why at this same year he established alliances with both King Hieronimous of Syracuse and Philip of Macedon.

Second. Central Italy would not be as easy as their counterparts to ally with him and Hannibal knew it well since this is where most of the latin colonies were. Even in the South the few latin colonies didn't change sides. It was not a question of "not having trees to build siege engines" as you said. A depleted army with less than 40.000 men now marching on a region who pumped up around 23 new legions between Cannae and 213BC, as recorded by Polybius (that's easily above 200.000 men) without his rear secured would be disastrous in my opinion. Especially considering it would be immobilised and encamped, as you suggested, at the gates of a well defended, highly populated city as Rome, which would take years to starve and almost impossible to storm with such a short army.

they needed the silver mines of iberia so sending armies to iberia to secure them seems perfectly sensible

First, they were secured by Hasdrubal Barca. Second, I agree the silver mines were important, but at such a decisive point in the war, weren't those troops desperately needed in Italy as I described above? Let me quote Polybius to justify my point, as well as the disastrous consequences of those reinforcements to Iberia under Hasdrubal Gisgo (or Gesco), who not only delayed the planned reinforcement of Hasdrubal Barca to Hannibal from Iberia through the Alps, as well as eased the mission of the romans of bringing many tribes to their side:

"The Carthaginian commanders had mastered the enemy, but were unable to master themselves, and while thinking they had put an end to the war against the Romans began quarrelling with each other, constant friction being caused by that covetousness and love of domination which is innate in Phoenicians. Hasdrubal, son of Gesco, was one of them, and his abuse of the authority he wielded went so far that he attempted to extract a large sum of money from Andobales, the most faithful friend the Carthaginians had in Spain, who had formerly been deprived of his principality owing to his attachment to them and had recently been restored to it for the same reason. When he now refused to pay, relying on his loyalty in the past to Carthage, Hasdrubal brought a false accusation against him and compelled him to give his daughters as hostages." - Polybius Book 9

This is just one example but clearly illustrates my point. On a side note, even in Polybius we see these doubtable judgements of character on the phoenicians I mentioned in Livy but understandable considering he was working for the romans.

About sending other armies to Sicily and Sardinia, I use the same argument of wether were they more needed at this decisive point in the war. Besides, their disastrous result also questions if they wouldn't be better employed under a capable commander as Hannibal.

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[moonburn]

to avert those results the senate would have to know what would have happened in the future or in real time as they where going
since they didn´t we can only imagine that they made a bad call on the caracther of the person picked to lead those armies in iberia and it doesn´t seem a strategical error since they needed (gold/silver) to conduct their campaigns

so you can´t directly input that on the punii senate

hannibal didn´t went to rome because he himself made a caracther judgement mistake he assumed that the romans would sue for peace
after cannae there weren´t any decent roman soldiers left and it would take time to train them had he fallowed the romans into rome and he should have been able to build a few rams and storm/sack the city like brennus had done just 100/200 years earlier

as for flaws of caracther you say it like if the romans didn´t had them too (the reason for canae to have ended the way it did was that the 2 consuls refused to work together) and since the romans had more power and more time to abuse that power i think we can make an enourmeous list of wrong doings by the romans (extortion lieing betrayals pure stupidity arrogance and so forth and so forth), roman luck was their imense recruitment pools to recruit from and a few admiral comanders at the right time sadly for carthage they seem to have had their only luck with hamilcar and hannibal

the army in massilia as i had said would have delayed the carthaginian plan so hannibal did the same as iulius cesar did 200 years (give or take) after he picked speed and surprise over numbers and the original plan as i said nobady knows exactly who made it but it does show some hability by the punic to strategyse wich goes in accord to my original claim (do not wish ill uppon an opponent, plan it) so i think that in this we concur

central italy wouldn´t be a problem after the romans had accepted peace terms or had their head decapitated with the fall of rome thing is he never went to the doors of rome it´s just a few dozen kilometers from canae (not sure) but instead he sitted on his ass instead of pushing the tactical advantage


as for the part of they wouldn´t have been better used under the hands of a better comander such as hannibal i can agree to that but something always showed up when carthage where about to send an army just because the romans didn´t knew about their plans doesn´t mean they didn´t had one it just means that the poenii where good in controlling information

hannibal army in italy was a way for carthage to take control of sardinia and all of their former colonies back he was never suposed to win so splendidly as he did probably he was just suposed to pin the romans in italy most likely but the fact is we don´t know and if we don´t we have no right to call the carthaginian senate dumb or that they where screwing up hannibal on purpose putting personal interests before the carthage superior interest but i highly doubt that

we can take alot of analogies with the cesar story where the senate where trying to undermine him so he wouldn´t crown himself king of rome except that cesar´s victories proved them right

if i was a strategist in carthage and please try to think like that what would be better ? send an army to italy or an army to iberia to take control and acess to more resources so you can compete with the roman recruitment pools ? what would be better to send an army to italy where they could be intercepted or destroyed in a storm or ambushed in the alps or send it to sardinia where you could collect more soldiers and have a better base to launch attacks against rome ? for me it´s an easy plan pin the romans in italy take sardinia and then from sardinia ship the men up the tiber and do as it appears in the eneias story or do as alexander did (hammer and anvil) thats how i assume that the senate in carthage planed and thinked their entire war plan (reconquer what we lost keep what we gained in iberia and catch the romans unprepared by disembarking on central italy)

from sardinia with the wealth of iberia the wealth of corsica the wealth of sicily (wealth also includes the hability to recruit mercenaries may it be understood) you can build enough armada´s to control the sea´s and when you control the seas you can probably land army after army into central italy perhaps with the greeks of megales hellas on the south pressing the romans the makedonians disenbarking by the adriatic sea and the celts pressing the romans from the north rome would have to surrender and sue for peace

^
|
| thats how i see the carthaginian plan coming together

[Ptolemaios]

Very good, as ever!!!
I think the best improvement to EB 1 is that you know have some other factions in northwestern africa, so the beginning of the camapaign should be more interresting. I maybe start with this faction eventhough i´m a fan of the hellenistic ones. The greatlooking skins just blew my mind.

[Divinephyton]

Wow, you guys are sick!
Emailing Mattingly and getting a thourough response, that is just plain epic!
Very very much looking forward to the release!

[[cF]HanBaal]

First of all sorry for clogging up the thread with an off-topic discussion, even if directly related to the faction of this preview.

So, moonburn, since you are going into the world of possibilities we will just have to agree to disagree. Just 3 quick but fundamental corrections. Rome wasn't by FAR as "easy to storm" in the 2nd punic war as in Brennus days more than a century before as you say. A lesson equally learnt by Carthage in the Mercenaries War that, even if not conquered, reforced extensively its defences by building triple walls and barracks inside for 40.000 infantry and 300 elephants. Carthage in its only real siege, by a gigantic roman army in the 3rd punic war (which wasn't a real war), and even after giving 200.000 individual equipments of war and its catapults to a treacherous roman condition for peace, resisted for 3 years and was only taken by a sea attack. Carthage NEVER surrendered. The same can't be said of Rome: Brennus and his Celts, Alaric and his Visigoths, Genseric and his Vandals... pussies xD

Second, Rome wasn't "deprived of soldiers" after Cannae as you say. 2 legions were sen't to the north by the roman senate in this same year and after Cannae, only to be destroyed by the Celts it's true, but if they were so desperately needed they would have stayed in Rome. If you search through the primary sources you'll see that days after Cannae Rome was fully prepared for a carthaginian siege, that never came. People tend to overestimate the loss of 86.000 (and consider around 10.000 escaped Cannae to Canusium) in the estimated recruiting pool of 750.000 able men romans had. And this not counting slaves, criminals and under and overaged Rome used to form more legions at the later part of the war. A testemony to the several more legions Hannibal destroyed in Italy in the 14 years after Cannae, contrary to the general belief no more proper battles were fought after it.

Third, Cannae wasn't a "few dozens kilometres away" from Rome. Rather few hundreds. And such a battle must have had many wounds among his soldiers, who must also have been very tired, and also many dead to bury of his already depleted army. And as Hannibal said in one of his speeches to his soldiers, the loot from the dead and the captured was their pay.

But as important as all these 3 points if not more, he now had many allies turning to him and which needed proper garrisons (basically all of Southern Italy except the latin colonies who constantly pressed on his new allies) who would make a perfect base of operations for both geting a steady chain of supplies which would be CRUCIAL for a prolonged siege/war in Central Italy, at the same time have his rear guarded and finally, receive reinforcements from Carthage. He got Locri for example, one of the biggest southern ports, from where he eventually got 4000 numidians and 40 elephants by the senate in 215BC, if you can call that proper reinforcements in the 14 years he was in the south.

To conclude, a common saying "Those who do not learn from mistakes, are destined to repeat them". This critic I made above was directed to you, not the carthaginian senate, who obviously could not know the consequences of their actions. Though I bet some did.

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[NeoSpartan]

This EBII game is going to be OFF DA HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As soon as this comes out I am buying a new PC, and I already have a new one, I will still spend $$ to upgrade it. I needz full detail.

Btw... I will forward this game to some of the history faculty at University of Maryland.

[hoom]

I'm really liking this rework of the Carthage roster :)
I was particularly shocked by the previous absence of Iron cuirasses on the Sacred Band given its one of the few pieces of Carthaginian armament that has been quite clearly stated.

Excellent quality & variation in the shields & armour of the Libyphoenicians & Sacred Band :)
If other factions/units get similar quality work this is going to be a visual feast.

I hope that you guys have been keeping an eye on this thread & we might get to see a rendition of Carthage in her glory!

I presume that Carthage will be able to recruit a wide variety of regional units as well as this core group?
I hope there will be fairly tight unit maxes on these top-end units too?

[-42-]

By far my favorite preview to date. The roster makes more sense (I was always confused as to why citizen militia were base level troops), and I'm thrilled to see skirmishers with swords and decent shields (cheap flankers).

[nazgool]

Yesterday I found something like this about Sardinia
LINK
This article is quite interesting.
Have a nice day all EB fans :)

[Zarax]

Nice link, it uses many of the sources I based my work on and it gives a good idea of the extension of the "punic limes".

[Folgore]

Totally awesome preview! Made me reinstall EB1 and start a Qarthadastim campaign. (Additionally, the discussion about Hannibal in this thread got me reading Livius. It's great!)

I have two questions though, regarding the units.

I read, on the other forum, that these units constitute the entire factional roster for the first EB2 release. However, it strikes me, from the unit description, that the liby-phoenician hoplite units will use the mechanism presented in one of the earlier Stele, where you have no upkeep inside a city, but very high upkeep outside it, to represent that they are a citizen militia only called upon in times of emergency. Now, in EB1 I'm using these guys to form my main line. If these guys aren't supposed to come along on campaign, which unit should I use in my armies?

And that really is my second question, in terms of EB2 units, what would a Qart Hadashtim army (from the first Punic war, I suppose) look like?

[Tanit]

A Qarthadastim army relied upon several methods of recruiting. Firstly they had a regular levy that all administered territories were subject to supply at all times, Carthage itself and Utica were free of this restraint. Second, any territory, even the independant ones, could be called upon to form a conscript force in times of need, this applied to every territory without exception. Troops were equipped in two forms thus, the first group were a trained force, equipped from a centralized magazine/armoury in Carthage. The equipment of the second force was dependant on the speed in which it was raised, and the people it was raised from. Carthage maintained a large enough armoury it could equip conscripts as easily as its regular levies, but some troops were not equipped from the armoury or were needed too soon to be brought through Carthage. In addition to this regular force, Carthage could hire mercenaries, although it hired fewer than most authors have made it appear, most troops were either levies or conscripts. The confusion comes because Carthage paid its levies and conscripts at the same time as its mercenaries, thus causing almost the whole army to be referred to as mercenaries.

The core of the Punic army consisted of a hoplite line. This was made up mostly of the regular levy, or conscript, Libyan infantry. This Libyan hoplite phalanx was supplemented before about 260 regularly with citizen hoplites including both Liby-Phoenicians and Sacred Band for first release relevance. The Sacred Band always formed the right flank of the phalanx line where possible. However, this era of heavy citizen use is nearing its end after losses to Timoleon and Agathocles. The army also had a large number of skirmishers, these usually included Libyan skirmishers and could also include African slingers, Numidian skirmishers and Numidian archers, see the Numidian preview, as well as Balearics. The cavalry flanks were formed by citizen cavalry before about 260, with the nobles forming the right wing, but afterwords, with the exception of battles against invaders on African soil, the cavalry was composed of levies and mercenaries. Libyan cavalry, and sometimes Liby-Phoenician cavalry, served this purpose, but they were largely, though not entirely, later replaced by Iberian and Numidian cavalry. Elephants and chariots could be used to either support the flanks or weaken the enemy centre before the infantry engagement.

You see, Carthage conducted itself in manner similar to ancient Persia. Subject territories were usually free to go about their business, but had to supply troops. Thus the Carthaginian army can evolve over time depending on which territories it gains. Heavy infantry will always form the centre of their line, with skirmishing troops ahead, and cavalry divisions on the flanks. A very typical army of the age. They prefer hoplites for the line, but will use any troops, even celtic and celtiberian mercenaries.

[Leão magno]

Great work as usual... but I can not deny I do not understand Sacred band not using totaly white shields; Where are Astartes one? What happenned with Anatin Lybeen (mispelled), where are the Elephants, the late units and elites?

[bobbin]

The late units will not be in the first release, so they haven't been made yet.

[Tanit]

White Shields - Were the 10,000 citizen troops who fought Timoleon. The Sacred Band were 2,500 and had, according to the after battle account, extremely elaborate and ornate armour and shields.

Astartes - Read the Sacred Band and Noble Cavalry unit descriptions

Aanatim Leebim - These are now the Lo'hamim Lybim, read the description for an explanation of the transition from Hoplites to thureophoroi style infantry

Elephants - Already seen in the Numidian preview, or was it the North African Peoples' preview? Either way, so we did not feel it necessary to show them again with so many other exciting units and updates to feature.

Late Units - As Bobbin said, not first release, you will see them in the future.

Elites - African Infantry are late, pikemen are not in first release, Liby-Phoenician elites were a cross idea between two unit types and the rework of that concept will be featured in a future release, Sacred Band are still in, Sacred Band cavalry have become the noble cavalry, see the description.

[-42-]

Quick question, the description of the Noble Cavalry states that the horses wore peytrals and chamfrons, have those simply not been modeled yet?

[bobbin]

The horse models and skins have not been finished yet, what you see on the unit card is a placeholder from another unit (celtic noble cavalry i think).

[Leão magno]

I just sincerely hope that the mercenary roster for Qarthadastim is at least as numerous and sorted as EB I, usually much of my Qarthadastm armies are composed of mercenaries (Italians, Iberians, Africans, etc)

[Delta146]

I have always liked playing as Qart-Hadast, I love the army compositions, troops, and the general situation of the area. The EBII Qarthadastim look like they will be a lot of fun to play as. I particularly like those Sacred Band, they look superb.

[QuintusSertorius]

Aanatim Leebim - These are now the Lo'hamim Lybim, read the description for an explanation of the transition from Hoplites to thureophoroi style infantry

I noted that they're now "thureophoroi-style", not actual imitations which are almost identical, as they were in EB1. Bit of a shame, I liked the Aanatim Leebim.

[Leon the Batavian]

First just another great preview of yet another mighty faction. Superb job

Carthage NEVER surrendered. The same can't be said of Rome: Brennus and his Celts, Alaric and his Visigoths, Genseric and his Vandals... pussies xD

cumps

Hmmmmmm

Anno 2011

Rome: Where millions of people everyday enjoying their cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise.
Carthage: ............... where a wind blows away some more sand.............................

Yes you are right Carthage never surrendered.................................. there was and is simply nothing left to surrender.

I bet you are a great admirer of mister P. C. S. Africanus

Anyways, nice to be able to repeat history again and to utterly and decisively destroy Hannibal and his Carthage.

[[cF]HanBaal]

Hmmmmmm

Anno 2011

Rome: Where millions of people everyday enjoying their cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise.
Carthage: ............... where a wind blows away some more sand.............................

Yes you are right Carthage never surrendered.................................. there was and is simply nothing left to surrender.

I bet you are a great admirer of mister P. C. S. Africanus

Anyways, nice to be able to repeat history again and to utterly and decisively destroy Hannibal and his Carthage.

Hmmmm?



A nice view from nowadays Carthage's 5 star Hotel Villa Didon, right on the legendary karthadastim Byrsa hill. Certainly more than just "sand"? And certainly pleasant for a "cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise."?

Carthage nowadays is a very pleasant place to visit where recent excavations
show several karthadastim constructions and where even the famous man-made punic ports remain visible.

And don't forget both cities have gone through many different 'leaderships' after the ancient times. Comparing both to nowadays standards is ridiculous. You know perhaps that rome's population went as low as 17.000 right after its imperialist days?

And again, contrary to ancient rome, ancient Karthadast never surrendered. Sorry if that bothered you but you'll just have to live with that. =)


EDIT:


For comparison, an image of ancient Karthadast with the same angle. In the first pic if you look closely you can see where the 2 ports were. And to imagine around 1/4 million cubic meters were moved to build them, using the technology of those days, makes them even more fantastic.

[Leon the Batavian]

I know Carthage was a gem even before Rome was something worth mentioning.

The fact is that the City has been completely destroyed unlike Rome so there wasn't really something left to surrender.

And no it doesn't bother me at all, i know the outcome of the Punic wars as you do.

By the way, I do like those pictures and I admire Hannibal.

[cmacq]

I know Carthage was a gem even before Rome was something worth mentioning.

The fact is that the City has been completely destroyed unlike Rome so there wasn't really something left to surrender.

And no it doesn't bother me at all, i know the outcome of the Punic wars as you do.

By the way, I do like those pictures and I admire Hannibal.

Then you understand Rome suffered its destructions as well. For example the Gauls once held the city for ransom, and it is from this point its real history begins.

[Ludens]

Indeed. It was Rome who insisted upon wiping out Carthage after the third Punic War. It's not Rome's merit that her own enemies were gentler.