EU budget talks collapse: Was Britain wrong to NOT negotiate in a 'European spirit'?

[rory_20_uk]

broadly agreed idaho, hopefully the limited budget increase will put a crimp in the mission-creep.

Fat chance. I imagine they'll just spend money they don't have and ask for more later.

The positives in the EU don't require the EU. They require specific treaties covering a specific point. So as issues are not intertwined, things can be sorted out as required, and not one issues used as a point of leverage for another. Of course that would also mean mission creep is much tougher as one would have to stipulate which treaty was enabling a specific action and not just shrugging of the shoulders and saying it's in there somewhere.

[Furunculus]

Fat chance. I imagine they'll just spend money they don't have and ask for more later.

The positives in the EU don't require the EU. They require specific treaties covering a specific point. So as issues are not intertwined, things can be sorted out as required, and not one issues used as a point of leverage for another. Of course that would also mean mission creep is much tougher as one would have to stipulate which treaty was enabling a specific action and not just shrugging of the shoulders and saying it's in there somewhere.

ah, if only we could have exactly that!

[Beskar]

ah, if only we could have exactly that!

What a bureaucratic and pointless waste it would be, you would make civil servants proud.

[Furunculus]

i doubt it, you would scratch out 50% of the EU's bureaucratic and 'democratic' functions overnight, as it would revert to a simple harmonised free-trade zone.

and any inefficiency in the process of managing individual treaties would be worth it for their inherent restriction on mission creep.

[rory_20_uk]

They are legally separate treaties, but can be functionally addressed together - there are many laws, but not a police force for each of them!

[Beskar]

i doubt it, you would scratch out 50% of the EU's bureaucratic and 'democratic' functions overnight, as it would revert to a simple harmonised free-trade zone.

and any inefficiency in the process of managing individual treaties would be worth it for their inherent restriction on mission creep.

Actually, if we scratched out all the national departments and move the major common policies to Brussels, it would cut EU bureaucratic wastage significantly and cut domestic wastage significantly as well.

[Furunculus]

Actually, if we scratched out all the national departments and move the major common policies to Brussels, it would cut EU bureaucratic wastage significantly and cut domestic wastage significantly as well.

quite, and yet you always skip over the part where seeking a democratic mandate from the people might be desirable, to state that such an entity would be both representative of their needs and thus legitimate, why is that?

i'd have that referendum tomorrow, would you?

[InsaneApache]

Personally I'd wait until monday. I'm off out for luncheon tomorrow.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Britain has had its referendum, and it has voted pro-Europe.

By contrast, nobody has ever asked the Scots, English and Welsh if they wanted to form a British Union. Nobody has ever asked any Briton whether he agreed to delegate British defense to NATO ('defense is the first duty of the state blahblah'). Nobody has ever asked any Briton if he wanted to join a Commonwelath together with Pakistan and Uganda.
But the British have been consulted about Europe.


Moreover, Bitiain is a democratic country, The UK government acts on behalf of the people. Therefore we must assume that it is the continuing democratic wish of the British people to be part of the EU.

[Idaho]

Britain has had its referendum, and it has voted pro-Europe.

By contrast, nobody has ever asked the Scots, English and Welsh if they wanted to form a British Union. Nobody has ever asked any Briton whether he agreed to delegate British defense to NATO ('defense is the first duty of the state blahblah'). Nobody has ever asked any Briton if he wanted to join a Commonwelath together with Pakistan and Uganda.
But the British have been consulted about Europe.


Moreover, Bitiain is a democratic country, The UK government acts on behalf of the people. Therefore we must assume that it is the continuing democratic wish of the British people to be part of the EU.

Getting a bit confused there. You are saying that politicking and the absence of democracy in some areas justifies the same in others. I support democratic decisions regardless of whether they are the ones I would have chosen.

[InsaneApache]

Britain has had its referendum, and it has voted pro-Europe.

Nope. We voted for a trading bloc.

[Furunculus]

I support democratic decisions regardless of whether they are the ones I would have chosen.

very much agreed!

i am not greatly in favour of direct democracy, but the only time i demand a referendum is when the question is raised; who governs me?

by common consent and civil war we have reached acceptance that the british people will consent to be government by the british parliament, if that parliament wishes to give away its authority to govern the british people to some third party then I DEMAND to be consulted on the matter.

Nope. We voted for a trading bloc.

yup, the question was: "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community?"