Admit it: TARP worked

[Lemur]

An interesting article over at FrumForum, and one with which I largely agree:

Free-market capitalism and the constitution are among our noblest concepts and vitally important to the life-blood and character of this nation; they are what made us great, but they are not suicide pacts. And I ask those of my libertarian friends who love no government at all, those who claim they would have let the banks die, to consider the history of fascist states and remember that the rise of dictators and despots is often through the exploitation of major social/economic upheaval. America is not immune to this phenomenon. I was not willing to run the risk should the free marketers have truly underestimated the severity of the crisis and chaos which ensued.

I would be interested to hear the Orgah perspective on this.

[Beskar]

I think I said a reply to CR which pretty much said something similar to this. Unfortunately, he didn't reply to it, I was interested in how he would view what I said.

[HoreTore]

Planned economy
Mixed economy
Laissez-faire economy

Get with the program, people!

[jabarto]

Free market capitalism didn't make us great. We got to the position we're at for two main reasons:

1. We protected the hell out of our industries during their infancy, and
2. All of our competitors were carpet bombed in WWII.

[Beskar]

Free market capitalism didn't make us great. We got to the position we're at for two main reasons:

1. We protected the hell out of our industries during their infancy, and
2. All of our competitors were carpet bombed in WWII.

Actually, they were decimated during the First World War. The periods afterwards and growing independence movements, along with World War 2 just killed off its main European rivals, Britain and France, as both Britain and France dismantled their empires after the war as well. As Japan (America's biggest rival) was also taken care off, it allowed America to assume the position of being the most dominant power, filling up the vacuum of space being left by the other nations.

[Fragony]

He's an idiot all systems are as good as their people, there's no evil in capitalism or communism or even national-socialism for that matter for extreme's sake. Libertarians take decency for granted, that may be stupid and unrealistic but I prefer it over the cynism that is control of any sorts. It's not the answer to anything, just a direction

[Brenus]

“there's no evil in……..even national-socialism”: ???????? Err, a political doctrine based on Racism, war and natural right to expend and enslave eastern neighbours?

[Fragony]

“there's no evil in……..even national-socialism”: ???????? Err, a political doctrine based on Racism, war and natural right to expend and enslave eastern neighbours?

That's what national-socialists did, there is no section on Siberian camps in Das Kapital as far as I know. National-socialism was a normal political movement in many a European country at the time, and social and racial darwinism as well, heck in the seventies people who didn't look all that vking were still sterilised in Scandinavia.

[Rhyfelwyr]

“there's no evil in……..even national-socialism”: ???????? Err, a political doctrine based on Racism, war and natural right to expend and enslave eastern neighbours?

If you strip all the racism etc that was associated with the historical national socialist movements, all it really is is a different take on the economy. A third way between capitalism and communism.

I actually quite like the national socialist approach to the economy, doesn't make me a neo-Nazi.

[Fragony]

If you strip all the racism etc that was associated with the historical national socialist movements, all it really is is a different take on the economy. A third way between capitalism and communism.

I actually quite like the national socialist approach to the economy, doesn't make me a neo-Nazi.

Exactly, labour party hates to hear it, but what they basicly did is expanding on the welfare state that was introduced by the nazi's. That's not meant as an attack on labour, comparing them with nazi's is of course way of, but they share many ideas on society.

edit, love your openmindness you are my favorite relinutjob

[Brenus]

“etc”: Well, actually that is the "etc" that makes problems, isn’t it.

As mentioned, nor Das Kapital or Marx’s writing include Gulags.

However, the unique book written by a National Socialist is clearly explicit about homosexuality, sub-human races and right of conquest and social Darwinism…

[TinCow]

TARP prevented a chain-reaction destruction of the financial industry. Regardless of how anyone feels about that industry, such a situation would have resulted in an economic collapse several orders of magnitude worse than we are currently experiencing.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Disregarding the many fine benefits of nazism and its wonderful intellectual legacy, yes, I must grudgingly support TARP.

One can get caught with one's pants down. The situation left little alternative, I think.

[Fragony]

“etc”: Well, actually that is the "etc" that makes problems, isn’t it.

As mentioned, nor Das Kapital or Marx’s writing include Gulags.

However, the unique book written by a National Socialist is clearly explicit about homosexuality, sub-human races and right of conquest and social Darwinism…

Your French you can read 'La question juive' (the jewish question, for you English, it was never translated) by that same Marx, it's not new, replace 'jews' witk captitalists, it's just the same thing.

[HoreTore]

Your French you can read 'La question juive' (the jewish question, for you English, it was never translated) by that same Marx, it's not new, replace 'jews' witk captitalists, it's just the same thing.

....By the jewish Marx, you mean?

[Rhyfelwyr]

....By the jewish Marx, you mean?

Hitler was part Jewish. Plus the Judeo-Bolsheviks ran the USSR. Not to mention the role of the international Jewish capitalists in upholding the western powers. Plus everyone from capitalist Britain to Nazi Germany to communist Russia worshipped a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago.

Bah! Human history may as well be called Jewish history!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As if it were needed:

[Fragony]

....By the jewish Marx, you mean?

ever heard of self-loathing? Take Amsterdam, it may be in Dutchland but it's really a jewish city at heart, always have been, it's also the last city where you want to be jewish after maybe Brussels

[Skullheadhq]

the Judeo-Bolsheviks ran the USSR.

Sure is 30's in here.

[Rhyfelwyr]

ever heard of self-loathing? Take Amsterdam, it may be in Dutchland but it's really a jewish city at heart, always have been, it's also the last city where you want to be jewish after maybe Brussels

Heh, I heard Ajax are proud of their Jewish heritage and style themselves as antifascists, kind of funny since now most people that call themselves antifascists and hate Israel openly protest with Muslims that do Nazi salutes, funny how things come round like that.

[Xiahou]

Define "worked".
It certainly succeeded in ushering in a new era of crony capitalism. It was great for lobbyists.
Was the Troubled Asset Relief Program successful at buying up troubled assets? No, not at all- that was left for the Federal Reserve to do.
Did it succeed in stimulating more lending? Nope.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Aren't they defining "worked" as "only cost the taxpayer a little bit and prevented economic collapse"? Regardless of lobbyist's and lending etc...

[Fragony]

Heh, I heard Ajax are proud of their Jewish heritage and style themselves as antifascists, kind of funny since now most people that call themselves antifascists and hate Israel openly protest with Muslims that do Nazi salutes, funny how things come round like that.

The antifacists don't get me started on them they are the most intolerant and violent lot you will ever see, anything that doesn't please them is a target, the extreme left is sickingly dangerous. Rediculously violent and uncompromising, activists my

[Hosakawa Tito]

The big promise of TARP was supposed to keep the unemployment under 8%, epic failure there. Taxpayers are going to lose at least $10 billion on GM, not counting the loans GM still owes, cash for clunkers and the Chevy Volt subsidies.
The remaining taxpayer shares would have to jump from $33/share to $51/share just to break even on the loan, not gonna happen.

The Frank-Dodd financial reform bill codifies into law future bailouts. It creates a permanent new bailout authority that undermines our bankruptcy system and rule of law. Too big to fail is alive and well. This administration will trumpet how well Bailout Nation "worked" to justify future bailouts of other firms.

The chief economic case against the bailout was not that huge infusions of taxpayer funds and special exemptions from bankruptcy rules could not make G.M. and Chrysler profitable. Of course they could. Instead, the heart of the case against the bailout is that it saps the life-blood of entrepreneurial capitalism. The bailout reinforces the debilitating precedent of protecting firms deemed “too big to fail.” Capital and other resources are thus kept glued by politics to familiar lines of production, thus impeding entrepreneurial initiative that would have otherwise redeployed these resources into newer, more-dynamic, and more productive industries. The “success” of the bailout is all too easy to engineer and to see. The cost of the bailout—the industries, the jobs, and the outputs that are never created—is impossible to see, but nevertheless real. George Mason University economist Don Boudreaux

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Interesting. But kind of uncomfortably theoretical or "impossible to see" as he puts it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Can we drop the endlessly amusing Socialism=Nazism=Whatever-I'm-Not debate for once and address Lemur's original post and the implications of TARP.

Thank you kindly.



Has anyone seen a thoughtful analysis of what would have happened if banks had been allowed to fail? Frankly, offloading all the costs of the bail-out onto taxpayers for the next several decades seems to have done wonders for those with banking interests, and very little for ordinary people. The economists who regularly offer the received wisdom that everything would have gone to Hell without the bail-out are, in the main, dependent on that very ecosystem.

[Fragony]

Wasn't my intention to do so, thought I made that clear. TARP and libertarism is a conflict of ideas on government, don't think it was all that off-topic, didn't want to derail sorry if I did

[Hosakawa Tito]

If there has been any such analysis, BG, I have not read it. However, one of the primary causes, Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae programs still exist and need to be wound down and abolished. Real estate is still a huge problem, and banks are still weak due to bad loans on their balance sheets according to this article: What's Really Behind Bernake's Easing?

[Xiahou]

Aren't they defining "worked" as "only cost the taxpayer a little bit and prevented economic collapse"?

Did it though? Again, TARP didn't accomplish any of it's stated aims. The Fed injecting over a trillion dollars into the economy (and you know, actually providing troubled asset relief) had more effect than TARP. I guess "a little bit" is subjective too. TARP funds were poured into AIG and GM- we'll never recoup all the billions spent on those.

[Vladimir]

Too big to fail is an oxymoron. If a private organization grows so large and powerful that we cannot do without it, break it up.

I don't care if TARP worked; I don't think it should ever be needed.

[gaelic cowboy]

Too big to fail is an oxymoron.

Take it from me "Too Big to Fail" is old hat round here our banks were so large they sank our state basically. The Banksters must now be smashed there temples destroyed we should keep cattle in there branch offices.