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Thread: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    I just gave you example of Japan. If China will get more prosperous, do you think the population will not become more prosperous? If they will become more educated.Dont you think they just might start demanding for some more rights? You are making China look like some Boogie man that little children should be scared with. I am sure that China will rise as a global economical power, which is only natural, but i dont think it will be the ruin of us. It is not interest of China either.As in Global economy we all are somewhat dependant upon each other. Afterall China needs buyers for their products.
    Bigger threat then China to our wellfare state system are countries that try to exploit the clobal economy by playing with their own rules. I am happy to help Ireland with some of my tax money, just like i was with Greece, but the cost is that your economy will be regulated so that it will follow the European standards and you cant be a tax haven anymore, just like Creece had to stop its ridiculous spending.

    Not as quick they will stay relatively cheap for long enough to ruin us all and that is the whole point is it not. Standards will obviously have to drop here in order to level the field so that eventually we can both grow together.

    On regulating our economy were cutting benefits here which are too high and that is as it should be, why should your tax money go on dole payments in Ireland far better it go to the banks who are in debt so the money can be paid back to the German, UK and French banks who are owed bond money.

    Never again will we have a narrow tax base in this country that was our problem along with a property bubble, we will collect more money but were not about to stand on top of a functioning part of the economy when exports are up 10.9% highest in the EU since last year.

    To do so would be silly the global recovery is fragile enough without taxing the working factories.

    Final point Ireland is not a tax haven they actually do business here with actual workers not like Bernuda or Holland where there is some office with a telephone your all listening far too much to Louis and lying politicians pretend there is an easy solution to unemployment figures in there respective countries. Wage and energy cost are high here as are transport cost the corporations get low tax to compensate for that but as the Graphic at the start shows there too mean even to pay 12.5% routing it through Bermuda and Holland.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 11-24-2010 at 18:52.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  2. #32
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Not as quick they will stay relatively cheap for long enough to ruin us all and that is the whole point is it not. Standards will obviously have to drop here in order to level the field so that eventually we can both grow together.

    On regulating our economy were cutting benefits here which are too high and that is as it should be, why should your tax money go on dole payments in Ireland far better it go to the banks who are in debt so the money can be paid back to the German,UK and French banks who are owed bond money.

    Never again will we have a narrow tax base in this country that was our problem along with a property bubble, we will collect more money but were not about to stand on top of a functioning part of the economy when exports are up 10.9% highest in the EU since last year.

    To do so would be silly the global recovery is fragile enough without taxing the working factories.

    Final point Ireland is not a tax haven they actually do business here with actual workers not like Bernuda or Holland where there is some office with a telephone your all listening far too much to Louis and lying politicians pretend there is an easy solution to unemployment figures in there respective countries. Wage and energy cost are high here as are transport cost the corporations get low tax to compensate for that but as the Graphic at the start shows there too mean even to pay 12.5% routing it through Bermuda and Holland.
    I guess i have to agree on disagreeing with you. The financial crisis is not about poor Corporations being overtaxed by governments, nor is the medicine for it to lower the life standards of citizens of said countries for the benefit of corporations, by taking away benefits of workers. Ireland is still a tax haven whether or not the corporations are making actual business or not in Ireland. What makes Ireland tax heaven is the fact that Ireland has lowered its corporation taxes on the levels of third world countries in order to draw corporations into Ireland.

    Last the difference for me to give my tax money in support of Ireland compared to giving that money to private banks is that i dont have any oblication or solidarity towards private banks, but i do have solidarity towards the Irish people as fellow Europeans.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 11-24-2010 at 18:58.
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  3. #33
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I wish ...

    Anyways, Louis, you may notice the real problem here is shifting income to subsidiaries in no-corporate tax countries, like Bermuda. It's preventing such transfers that's the real issue.

    CR
    1) No. Ireland's parasitic 12,5% corporate tax rate is a big neon flag planted as advertisement on a huge steaming pile of ****. A steaming pile of tax cuts and government benefits and handouts that Ireland gives foreign corporations. It is all intimately tied together.

    It makes sense to the small economy. Two percent of a large amount is still a large amount. Take the case of Google alone, which ends up paying that two percent. Europe loses some three billion euros in taxes a year. In return, Ireland receives a measly 25 million in taxes, and 2000 clerk jobs for administration. It is sheer economic vandalism. Nearly three billion of tax revenue forfeited across Europe so one country can make 25 million and a few jobs.



    2) America has a 35% corporate tax rate.

    Why do people consider the 0%-1% tax country a tax haven, a tax loophole that needs to be closed. But the 12,5% country a 'competitive business environement'. What is the qualitative difference between undercutting by 35% or by 22,5%?
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    It is highly likely that a large number of EU banks are owed bond money by the sickly Irish banks who have suffered a property bust.

    In a paradoxical way you are in fact helping yourselves to fireproof your own banks from suffering any Irish loan losses while the Irish taxpayer will agree to pay back your taxpayers.

    As long as Portugal and Spain do not blow up now then the Euro is secure and so therefore Eurozone banks are safe that is the real reason of the bailout for Ireland. Our banks are so toxified they will now likely be smashed up and sold off to prevent this madness happening ever again.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  5. #35
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    The distortion of a functioning market by the Irish taxation policy becomes clear when one considers the following two hypothetical solutions:

    Re-instate normal taxation for Google in Europe, let's say at German or US levels. This amounts to three billion euros annually. Those 2000 clerk jobs will remain somehwre in Europe, it doesn;t matter where. Now share the profit, give Ireland, one percent of Europe, its 12,5%: 450 million. Give the other 99% of Europe the remainder, 2,55 billion. Both Ireland and Europe have now benefited tremendously, the two of them!

    Even worse is the following thought:

    The smart thing to do for Europe is to offer Ireland that it never needs to work again, to offer each Irishman - man, woman and child - the average income of €30k a year. All that Ireland has to do in return is to promise to retire, to cease all economic activity save for spending the money they receive. Europe still benefits in this scenario. For that is the extent of the Irish taxation vandalism, the amount of taxation Europe misses out on just so a tiny island can keep a tiny sum of the enormous sum that remains untaxed in Europe. We should offer Ireland that it never needs to work again.

    The Irish are Europe's most expensive citizens by far, so expensive that Europe would still make a profit if it would subsidise all Irish to cease their economic activity.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    It makes sense to the small economy. Two percent of a large amount is still a large amount. Take the case of Google alone, which ends up paying that two percent. Europe loses some three billion euros in taxes a year. In return, Ireland receives a measly 25 million in taxes, and 2000 clerk jobs for administration.
    Your know nothing about tech companies if you think Google employees are desk clerks there is huge localisation and testing team based in many of these places they have plenty work making Google.FR, Google.DE, Google.whatever.

    I agree that we should get more money but you continue to ignore the Bermuda and Dutch angle to this lark because your personally annoyed we got a bailout. It is obvious that the bigger economies already know that these corporations are doing this but to admit it is being done in Bermuda means grabbing a financial nettle they make billions from themselves so they blame 12.5% corpo tax instead cos it is easy to see and shout about.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 11-24-2010 at 19:14.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  7. #37
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Your know nothing about tech companies if you think Google employees are desk clerks there is huge localisation and testing team based in many of these places they have plenty work making Google.FR, Google.DE, Google.whatever.

    I agree that we should get more money but you continue to ignore the Bermuda and Dutch angle to this lark because your personally annoyed we got a bailout. It is obvious that the bigger economies already know that these companies are doing this but to admit it is done in Bermuda means grabbing a financial nettle they make billions from themselves so they blame 12.5% corpo tax instead cos it is easy to see and shout about.
    And Monaco, and Switzerland, and Luxembourg. If it were up to me, the tanks would ride out tonight to overthrow these countries.

    The financial meltdowns should be what 9-11 was. A warning sign. An end of the line. The final act. No more of this, the stakes have been raised. When Ireland recieves one hundred billion in bailout funds and the working Irishman loses everything he gained the past twenty-five years, then something is awfully amiss.

    The game has changed. It is serious. We are being had, sucked dry for all we're worth. We can bail out any crisis, but there must be the condition that it is game over for those responsible. Ireland is bankrupt, it needs to rethink its strategy. I find it incomprehensible that there are nearly inhumane austerity measures for Irish pensioners, while the right of foreign corporations to not pay taxes in Ireland remains unaffected. I think Ireland is mistaken to cling on to its tax policy, to mistake it for the only possible viable economic policy.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    If you want to see a real Hibernian Financial Terrorist then look no further than this fella



    Yeah that is right Bono the man who campaigns against the evils of the western finacial system uses the Dutch part of your graphic.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006...tsnews.ireland

    Bono may be celebrated for browbeating world leaders into funding debt relief for developing countries, but his Irish rock band is facing criticism for switching its financial affairs overseas to avoid paying higher taxes.
    U2's move has been revealed as Bono's California-based venture capital firm, Elevation Partners, confirmed it had invested around $300m (£157m) in Forbes, the US business magazine frequently described as the "bible of capitalism".

    Irish politicians have expressed surprise at U2's decision to move part of its multi-million pound operation from Ireland to Amsterdam. The tax rate on royalty earnings in the Netherlands - where many of the Rolling Stones' assets are based - is only a few per cent.

    U2's changeover may have been triggered by reforms announced last December by the Irish finance minister, Brian Cowen, who imposed a cap of €250,000 (£168,000) on tax-free incomes for artists resident in the republic. Before the cap, the scheme attracted many famous names to Ireland. But the government came under pressure to curtail the incomes of those benefiting disproportionately from the scheme.

    At the time Mr Cowen said: "We cannot stand over a situation in which some high-earning tax residents, through the use of incentive reliefs, can reduce their taxable income to nil."

    The Irish Labour party's finance spokeswoman, Joan Burton, said this week: "Having listened to Bono on the necessity for the Irish government to give more money to Ireland Aid ... I am surprised that U2 are not prepared to contribute to the exchequer on a fair basis along with the bulk of Irish taxpayers."

    Corporation tax in Ireland is only 12.5%. The standard rate of personal tax is 20%, rising to a top rate of 42%. The band had been able to claim artists' tax relief as songwriters, but the scheme did not cover income from tours and performances.

    Alongside Bob Geldof, Bono has spent years cajoling US presidents and other world leaders into increasing debt relief to poorer countries, improving aid to Africa and helping Aids victims. U2's donations to aid organisations have always remained anonymous, although the royalties from several of their songs have been given to charities.

    The band will continue to live and work in Ireland, paying other taxes, an industry source told the Guardian. Like other bands, the source added, U2 "try to be as tax efficient as possible". Principle Management, which controls U2's financial affairs, would not comment.

    Elevation Partners is a private venture capital firm with six partners, one of whom is Bono. It has an estimated capital value of $1.9bn. U2 were said to be the world's most lucrative group last year, earning more than €210m.

    Their success, however, has generated signs of resentment.

    Proposals to construct a so-called U2 Tower - the tallest residential development in Ireland on the southside of the Liffey river - have drawn complaints from locals in Dublin's Ringsend. The tower, a 31-floor construction, will house luxury apartments and provide space for the band's recording studios.

    The building was originally scheduled to be 60 metres (197ft) high, but last month permission was granted for it to rise to 100 metres. "This tower is going to appear as a monstrosity in what used to be a small maritime village," Damien Cassidy of the Ringsend Environmental Group told BBC radio earlier this week.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    The game has changed. It is serious. We are being had, sucked dry for all we're worth. We can bail out any crisis, but there must be the condition that it is game over for those responsible. Ireland is bankrupt, it needs to rethink its strategy. I find it incomprehensible that there are nearly inhumane austerity measures for Irish pensioners, while the right of foreign corporations to not pay taxes in Ireland remains unaffected. I think Ireland is mistaken to cling on to its tax policy, to mistake it for the only possible viable economic policy.
    We had a property bubble which was used to buy off unions and sweeten election campaigns hence FF were in power since 1997. We were spending too much unsustainable money if we had kept a handle on wage, energy and transport costs and ensured a more sensible minimum wage we possibly might still need a bailout but most likley far far less.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  10. #40
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.
    Bono apparently he still hasn't found what he's looking for a boot up the for free
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  12. #42
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.
    Bono should spend more time locked away in a dark place.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #43
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Bono's done to Ireland what Ireland has done to Europe. And why shouldn't he? The morale in Ireland is that it is okay to evade taxes, it is, after all, the nation's national business.


    Game theory.

    27 people. Each one is presented a choice:
    a) All 27 to receive one euro each
    b) You get three euros, the others don't get anything

    Basically, Ireland has picked option 'b'. (Perhaps fine in itself. However, the natural course for the other 26 now is to ostracise/kill the 'cheating player', to see total income rise eightfold)


    In the Google example, Ireland offerd Google tax excemption for all of Google's business in the EU. In exchange for 2000 Irish jobs. (Better to make 3 euros yourself than you and all the others one euro each).
    Assuming a German corporate tax rate, this amounts to three bilion euros a year in lost taxes for the rest of Europe. That is, the European taxpayer subsidises Ireland by 1,5 million euros for a single Irish job.

    The extent of the Irish parasitic financial practices are such, that it would be cheaper for Europe to offer each Irish 'high tech' Google employee one million euros each, per year, just to cease activity. Irish policy is that detrimental to Europe.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Blah blah blah
    Assuming a German corporate tax rate means Ireland gets the money not Europe would you really want the last/present government to have had even more money at there disposal. All they did with money was feather there nests and spend spend spend no thanks I glad google codded us otherwise we would be looking for 300 billion euro.

    The election is coming early next year so you can wave buy to the toxic Fianna Fail /Greens and say hello to Fine Gael/Labour instead. I predict a 15% corpo tax rate in Ireland at the end of the decade after we have exited this bailiout and can stand up for ourselves. Mainly I see this happening because thats what always happens as the outer regions become more CORE like in there infrastructure the rate naturally goes up. We have fifty years of infrastructure to catch up on we were never going to get it done in ten years so the rate will have to stay where it is for now to compensate it really is as simple as that.

    I grow weary of this Louis your talking to the wrong people and reading the wrong papers, in fact your almost catholic in you attempts to deify sweat and labour as if an Intel employee does not work hard 12hrs a day in the Fabs in Ireland.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 11-25-2010 at 15:23.
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  15. #45
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Assuming a German corporate tax rate means Ireland gets the money not Europe would you really want the last/present government to have had even more money at there disposal. All they did with money was feather there nests and spend spend spend no thanks I glad google codded us otherwise we would be looking for 300 billion euro.

    The election is coming early next year so you can wave buy to the toxic FF and say hello to FG/Labour instead I predict a 15% corpo tax rate in Ireland at the end of the decade after we have exited this bailiout and can stand up for ourselves. Mainly I see this happening because thats what always happens as the outer regions become more CORE like in there infrastructure then rate naturally goes up. We have fifty years of infrastructure to catch up on we were never going to get in done in ten years so the rate will have to stay where it is for now to compensate it really is as simple as that.

    I grow weary of this Louis your talking to the wrong people and reading the wrong papers, in fact your almost catholic in you attempts to deify sweat and labour as if an Intel employee does not work hard 12hrs a day in the Fabs in Ireland.
    I have to take it out someplace. I've agitated aginst tax havens many times before. Now Ireland just cost us all 100 billion on top of that. I'm allowed to about it for a few days.

    Emerging economies can with some decency undercut established economies. As eastern Europe is doing, with their policy of 'no taxation for Chinese corporations operating in Europe'. Ireland, before it self-destructed, was in many ways no longer an emerging economy. It was an excersize in revenge on Britain, with Dublin cheering every time another company moved (nominal) headquarters from the UK to Ireland, proud that Irish GDP per capita (on paper!) succeeded Britain's. British corporate taxes have been forced down as a result, and will soon be little more than half those of America. Tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    As to whether it will change, I dunno. Ireland's requested special privilige to agree to Lisbon was...that Ireland could continue to offer foreign corporations 12,5% taxation. In a common market, without tax harmonisation, for each country the temptation will always be there to choose the short term private gain over the long term common gain.
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  16. #46
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    As to whether it will change, I dunno. Ireland's requested special privilige to agree to Lisbon was...that Ireland could continue to offer foreign corporations 12,5% taxation. In a common market, without tax harmonisation, for each country the temptation will always be there to choose the short term private gain over the long term common gain.
    Of course it will change it just wont change soon enough that European politicians can point to a victory etc etc.

    Now if we could start a thread on the possibility that any of these bailouts can actually work we can get down to some real debate.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    And Monaco, and Switzerland, and Luxembourg. If it were up to me, the tanks would ride out tonight to overthrow these countries.
    and once again, for all those unsure and as yet unconvinced by the glorious dream of brussels enforced socialism you provide graphic evidence of why they don't want to be a part of it.
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  18. #48
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    "Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  19. #49
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    "Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.
    Hmm. One might quibble with this, insofar as corporations are legal individuals, but not people. Corporations therefore have a range of options to avoid tax not open to individual human beings. Corporations also pay tax in their own right, usually on top of the the taxes inflicted on the individuals that make up or own the corporation.
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    "Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.
    All taxes are paid by individuals, but we name the different taxes according to how they are collected.

    Thus, the term "corporate tax" is 100% accurate.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  21. #51
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    All taxes are paid by individuals, but we name the different taxes according to how they are collected.

    Thus, the term "corporate tax" is 100% accurate.
    Head Tax, Hearth Tax, Consumption Tax, Sin Tax...I put it to you that, at least in English, taxes tend to be named for whatever is, ostensibly, being taxed. As for-profit-corporations -- legal "citizens" or no -- pass all taxation onto their customers as a cost of doing business, I still assert it is misnomered.

    Now, Banquo, you are quite aware that I am implying that corporate tax should be done away with -- as I think it tends to create un-level playing fields. If you'd like me to point out that I believe that Corporations SHOULD have some of their legal personhood rather more clearly defined, you would find me quite amenable. I am a deep believer in personal rights, but corporations are NOT persons who live, breathe, and are responsible to the Creator for their actions (chill out, I will stipulate that many of you do not believe in such, but you still get my meaning).
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 11-30-2010 at 01:53.
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  22. #52
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    "Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.
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  23. #53
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Now, Banquo, you are quite aware that I am implying that corporate tax should be done away with -- as I think it tends to create un-level playing fields. If you'd like me to point out that I believe that Corporations SHOULD have some of their legal personhood rather more clearly defined, you would find me quite amenable. I am a deep believer in personal rights, but corporations are NOT persons who live, breathe, and are responsible to the Creator for their actions (chill out, I will stipulate that many of you do believe in such, but you still get my meaning).
    Yes, Seamus, I know what you were getting at. Where we might differ is the word "some".

    Incorporation is a truly evil manifestation, and to me there is no "some" about its privileges. Rights always require concomitant responsibilities.
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  24. #54
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Yes, Seamus, I know what you were getting at. Where we might differ is the word "some".

    Incorporation is a truly evil manifestation, and to me there is no "some" about its privileges. Rights always require concomitant responsibilities.
    Not a' tall me boyo... ;-)


    Actually, the element of incorporation that is vital to a modern economy is the separation of corporate and individual assets. If we have to have all companies go back to the old Lloyd's of London model, it will have a steeply chilling effect on investment. This requires that the corporation be enough of a "person" to have standing in court. As to the acretion of other "rights of personhood," I am not nearly so committed. Should corporations have a right to donate to political office-seekers? Does Exxon's freedom of speech equal my own? There are a LOT of other privileges accorded to corporations that have been far too cavalierly defined. Many (most) such privileges might well serve the greater good...but a careful re-evaluation is not out of line.

    As you say, privileges go hand-in-hand with responsibilities...and I don't see U.S. Steel having to sign up with the Selective Service like I did.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  25. #55
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Patrick Honohan certainly seems to believe that the Euro was a principle actor in the Eire disaster: What Went Wrong In Ireland?

    http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/ph...nt%20wrong.pdf
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  26. #56
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Patrick Honohan certainly seems to believe that the Euro was a principle actor in the Eire disaster: What Went Wrong In Ireland?

    http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/ph...nt%20wrong.pdf
    He had to be appointed to the Central Bank eventually but it was too late to save the country the fools in Fianna Fail had already sank the ship. (along with a conniving ECB)

    The government hates him with a passion now as they were basically forced into his appointment and he has consistently rubbished there claims.
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  27. #57
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Slightly related to the topics discussed in this thread, the EU today opened an antitrust investigation into Google.

    Unlike in America, where Google must pay taxes, Google enjoys privately negotiated tax excemption in Europe. As a consequence, whereas Google is merely dominant in America, it enjoys a virtual monopoly in Europe, where it can easily fend of tax paying competitors. To add insult to injury, Google abuses its virtual monopoly to keep down emerging competitors in Europe.

    E.U. Opens Antitrust Investigation Into Google


    BRUSSELS — The top European antitrust regulator opened an investigation into Google on Tuesday to examine allegations that the Internet giant has abused its dominance in online search.

    The move follows complaints by specialized search-related companies about “unfavorable treatment of their services in Google’s unpaid and sponsored search results,” the European Commission said in a statement.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/01/te...ef=global-home
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  28. #58
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    It will drag on for about a year or two and in the end up they will make some kind of deal just like they did with Microsoft.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 11-30-2010 at 14:20.
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  29. #59

    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    This will only be the case if Google is stupid. If it is smart, like Intel it will probably settle for a few $bn straight away.
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  30. #60
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibernian Financial Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Not a' tall me boyo... ;-)


    Actually, the element of incorporation that is vital to a modern economy is the separation of corporate and individual assets. If we have to have all companies go back to the old Lloyd's of London model, it will have a steeply chilling effect on investment. This requires that the corporation be enough of a "person" to have standing in court. As to the acretion of other "rights of personhood," I am not nearly so committed. Should corporations have a right to donate to political office-seekers? Does Exxon's freedom of speech equal my own? There are a LOT of other privileges accorded to corporations that have been far too cavalierly defined. Many (most) such privileges might well serve the greater good...but a careful re-evaluation is not out of line.

    As you say, privileges go hand-in-hand with responsibilities...and I don't see U.S. Steel having to sign up with the Selective Service like I did.
    My own, rather independent, view is that the problem with incorporation is that it does separate corporate and individual assets. It's about time all businesses were subject to the same thing: risk.

    Corporates that are profligate, uncompetitive and go bust hurt some investors, but hardly ever the eejits in charge that make the mistakes. The old saw that shareholders should hold boards to account is nonsense, since they never do - most corporate shareholders are investment banks or pensions, and just as corrupt as their buddies who happen to be on a board or five.

    Business risk ought to be assessed just as in a small business environment - will I work hard enough to ensure I don't lose my home and family? Is my decision sound enough that my children will eat later this month?

    To take a current example, if the boards of banks had faced the guarantee that their gambling insanity would have put them on a park bench, bankrupt and penniless - as it has done to many blameless small businesses - would we have seen the "risk" taking of recent years - or the wise, considered loans for real assets and business investment that used to be the norm when bankers were boring members of the community?

    Protection from the consequences of risk encourages bad business and huge business that can monopolise markets, and that is why incorporation is an evil.

    However, I fear I digress from the topic at hand.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

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