The Morality of Petty Theft

[rory_20_uk]

We can chose between regular coffee, cappucino and espresso.

/runs

When I was an "intern" at AztraZeneca they had fnatastic instant machines that did tea (2 types), coffee (2 types), hot chocolate, mint tea... [sigh]. Now there's only tea, coffee and tapwater.

[Don Corleone]

File a report and state the facts as you know them. Stating facts is a value neutral action that leads to more openness and usually has no negative consequences. Just ask our friend Julian Assange & his two lovely Swedish friends.

All kidding aside, as others have said, stealing is wrong at all levels. She didn't steal a crust of bread out of the trash because she's famished. She stole a personal item, presumably because she wanted it. You don't know that she stole it, so refrain from offering your judgement or opinions. Just relate the facts of the incident as you know them.

You cannot begin to know (and therefore be held responsible) for all the possibilities of the case. Yes, she might get fired right before Christmas. But if you don't report her, she might be emboldened and start stealing more valuable items like credit card receipts out of the trash or prescription meds out of somebody's drawer.

You're only responsible for what you know and what you do. Reporting the facts as you know them cannot possibly be a morally negative act.

[HoreTore]

Yes, you have a point. But this is the BR, so I won't admit it.

We can chose between regular coffee, cappucino and espresso.

/runs

GAH!!!!!

I only get drip coffee later in the day, in the morning it's just instant coffee.... There's tea too though, but that's for chicks so it doesn't count.

You're not hiring, are you?

[Andres]

GAH!!!!!

I only get drip coffee later in the day, in the morning it's just instant coffee.... There's tea too though, but that's for chicks so it doesn't count.

You're not hiring, are you?

We need a cleaning lady

[drone]

So, I've decided not going to report her. However, and this is the point of my post, I feel angry at this situation. Somehow, it seems to me that this woman stole from me, and yet I've ended up feeling guilty about it. How did that happen? Why did it happen? Is this some kind of personal guilt-complex about our disparate socio/economic backgrounds? Am I wrong to feel this way, or is this natural? Am I helping society as a whole by not causing major problems for this woman, or am I hurting it by letting a thief go unpunished?

TinCow, this statement indicates you have a soul. I thought the Bar Association was supposed to remove that on admission. This may be a test by your employer.

[Reenk Roink]

What headphones are you thinking of getting? I'd recommend Sennheiser HD555 myself. I got a pair last year and while I'm no audiophile, listening to just about anything is a completely different experience with a quality pair of headphones like these.

[Rhyfelwyr]

So, if TinCow would be a guy with a crappy job in a fastfood restaurant, it would be ok to report it and see the cleaning lady be fired before Christmas?

OMG personal attack!!!

Everybody has the right to get fired if he's stealing on his workplace.

Of course the woman has no right to complain if she gets fired, where did I say otherwise?

I said it would be a nice thing to do if TinCow didn't have her fired. The fact he isn't obliged to do it is what makes it a nice thing to do.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Theft, or even the suspicion of theft, for a cleaner in America in all likelyhood means the end of her job, of this job. On which her family might be dependent.

So I think you have to be pretty darned sure before you accuse her of stealing. 95% sure is not good enough. 99% isn't either.


Indeed, socio-economical disparities really do have everything to do with it, as do power structures. That would take me a lenghty essay to explain. So instead, as a tangentially related but useful comparison, compare the fear a man in some position of authority, however slight - police officer, teacher, priest - feels for the accusiation of sexual harrasment.
In a liberal environment, say a university, a man's career is pretty much over the minute a single female student accuses him of harassment. The suspicion will always remain, the social damage is done, the career is over.
One has to be sure about the allegation, one has got to be certain of the case before reporting harassment. 95%, or even 99%, is not good enough.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Property is an extension of the person. To harm or take another's property is to harm them.

Rory's coming up aces on this one.

[HoreTore]

Property is an extension of the person. To harm or take another's property is to harm them.

Bah, nonsense.

Person > other persons > property

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Property is an extension of the person. To harm or take another's property is to harm them.

Rory's coming up aces on this one.

Bah, nonsense.

Person > other persons > property

And that, dear Horetore, pretty well sums up the bulk of our philosophical differences with one another. Tis, in it's own way, a "great divide."

[TinCow]

Is there a difference between taking another persons soda because you're thirsty any different to, say, stealing some cheap stuff to give to your kid for christmas because you can't afford a present?

I think this is a significant point and worthy of some discussion, because I really do believe that the value of the item in question makes a difference. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have reported the theft if it had been the iphone itself ($200) that was taken. Somewhere between the phone and the headphones, there is an invisible line that is crossed on 'value.' This is certainly not an absolute value, it's just my own personal judgment on the situation, but it definitely exists. I would have reported the loss of the $200 phone, but I did not report the loss of the $30 headphones. Clearly that is a result of my own valuation of the true worth of the items, and my gut-instinct that $30 isn't worth the hassle makes me feel like perhaps I'm an elitist snob. However, that feeling in itself makes me a bit upset, as I don't think I should have to 'apologize' or otherwise feel bad about being better off than some other people.

On a side note, the 'thirst' comment about the theft of the soda actually raises an important legal issue, at least in the US. Larceny (theft) is actually NOT a crime in the US if it is theft of an item needed for survival. That term is pretty narrowly defined and generally limited to food, clothing, and shelter in a situation where not stealing those items would result in death or serious harm. In addition, after the survival situation has passed, the thief is still legally obligated to restore the property that was taken or otherwise compensate the person from whom it was stolen. Still, it is interesting that the law does allow for 'righteous' theft in certain circumstances.

[Andres]

Who are you to decide when theft needs to be reported or not?

Would you have reported it if you would have seen the cleaning lady stealing the 30 $ headphones of your colleague?

Is the fact that you yourself are the victim, relevant to decide whether to report or not?

Theft is a criminal offense, because it doesn't only affect the victim, but also society as a whole. It is punished by criminal law, because society, represented by its' legislative and executive bodies, has decided that it is unwanted behaviour.

Isn't it your duty to report it, regardless of the identity of the victim or the value of the stolen item? It's up to the judge to decide if she should get punished or not. If the cleaning lady deems it ridicilous to get fired for this, then she can go to court. The judge will decide if she's right or not. It's not your place to make those decisions.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread! - Anatole France.

[HoreTore]

And that, dear Horetore, pretty well sums up the bulk of our philosophical differences with one another. Tis, in it's own way, a "great divide."

I know, I just wanted to point that out for the 6547th time

[TinCow]

Who are you to decide when theft needs to be reported or not?

Would you have reported it if you would have seen the cleaning lady stealing the 30 $ headphones of your colleague?

Yes, but the reason is that I would have seen it with my own eyes. If I had actually witnessed her stealing my headphones, I would definitely have reported it. The fact that I did not do so and am thus not 100% sure that she did steal them is a major factor.

Is the fact that you yourself are the victim, relevant to decide whether to report or not?

I think it is. In many cases victims choose not to press charges against the perpetrator, for many reasons. In some situations, it can be worse for the victim (financially, psychologically, etc.) to pursue a criminal charge than to just let the issue lie.

Theft is a criminal offense, because it doesn't only affect the victim, but also society as a whole. It is punished by criminal law, because society, represented by its' legislative and executive bodies, has decided that it is unwanted behaviour.

Isn't it your duty to report it, regardless of the identity of the victim or the value of the stolen item? It's up to the judge to decide if she should get punished or not. If the cleaning lady deems it ridicilous to get fired for this, then she can go to court. The judge will decide if she's right or not. It's not your place to make those decisions.

My duty? That's an interesting way of phrasing it, but I'm going to say that no, it is not my duty. As far as I am aware, there is no legal duty (in the US at least) to report a crime. Aiding and Abetting is a crime, but that's when actual assistance is provided to the crime in some manner. Simply failing to report that a crime has occurred, without otherwise helping the criminal or benefiting from the crime, is not crime. Perhaps there is a moral obligation, but an individual's obligations to society are defined by the laws of that society. Thus, if society has determined by its own laws that a person is not required to do something, how can there still be a duty to do that thing?

[HoreTore]

My duty? That's an interesting way of phrasing it, but I'm going to say that no, it is not my duty. As far as I am aware, there is no legal duty (in the US at least) to report a crime. Aiding and Abetting is a crime, but that's when actual assistance is provided to the crime in some manner. Simply failing to report that a crime has occurred, without otherwise helping the criminal or benefiting from the crime, is not crime. Perhaps there is a moral obligation, but an individual's obligations to society are defined by the laws of that society. Thus, if society has determined by its own laws that a person is not required to do something, how can there still be a duty to do that thing?

It's the duty of the government(through the police and legal system), but it is certainly not the responsibility of each citizen to uphold and/or enfore the laws of our states.

[Whacker]

@ TC

I see nothing wrong with what you are thinking or feeling here.

There is certainly the possibility that the headphones were lost, mistakenly thrown out, or perhaps taken by someone else. You conclusion sounds fairly safe to me, though, but as you said it's not a definite or given. I also agree with Louis, if you are going to accuse, you need to be 100% sure, due to the potential ramifications and stigma. So, that leaves it with reporting the missing item, or not. I would suggest you go ahead and report them missing, and state only the facts in your report. The reasons are 1. based on what you stated, I think it's not an unreasonable assumption that the new cleaning lady stole them, 2. crime should not be rewarded, 3. repeat offenders are born from a lack of consequences, and 4. the best time to stop a behavior and get an individual help if needed is very, very early on.

Assuming theft is the cause, simply reporting this will most likely get back to her in some shape or form, in the forms of questioning or at least an advisory. Many times future acts can be stopped through realization of potential consequences or fear of repercussions.

Let's say theft wasn't the cause, maybe it was a pure accident and she threw them out, or maybe they fell in the trash can, who knows? Perhaps it was an "honest" mistake which she realized when you asked, and instead of fessing up decided to cover her tracks out of fear. Reporting the missing item will most likely result in some questions being asked, which in turn could make her realize the error of her actions and the need for honesty.

Worst case, maybe she didn't steal them, something else happened, but she's still outright fired as a result. Given today's employment situations I would think this would be very, very highly unlikely, but it's still possible. If that were to happen, then I don't think you should feel any guilt or responsibility. Reporting a missing item and stating only facts is the right thing to do IMO. If someone else responds in a completely unreasonable manner, you are not responsible for his or her behavior.

[Husar]

Andres and others are technically correct, it's wrong, it shouldn't happen, etc.
There is however a certain lack of the virtue of mercy in this technical view and since we are humans and not Judge Dredds, I think it should be considered.

That is not to say you should just let her get away with it. I think the middle ground ids to tell her about her suspicions (preferably without everyone else hearing it) and that, should other suspicions about her stealing arise, you are going to report it(not necessarily her, as we are talking about suspicions), that you have no interest in harming or blaming her, but won't tolerate theft either. If she attacks you in the sense of 'how dare you blame me', then that certainly won't speak for her of course, guess you will have to live with a denial either way.

Mercy is not the only reason this may be a better approach, you don't know her story, you don't know why she steals and while it is no excuse for her stealing, you might be the first guy in her life who doesn't smack her/give her up right away for doing something wrong, it may have an impact. If it doesn't and things keep disappearing "on her watch", then report everything you know.
I don't think everything has to be treated in the harshest and strictest way because not all people are the same, give her a chance and let her chose whether to take it or not, if she stole in the first place which isn't 100% proven.

You may also hint that you're not sure it hasn't been misplaced and that you're going to search for it again to prove her innocence, then see whether it actually turns up again. (Unlikely but possible I think)