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Thread: Just Something I Noticed

  1. #1

    Question Just Something I Noticed

    I cannot be sure how reliable or relevant this is, but I was just going over this wiki and saw this sentence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    At the time of Augustus, the Greek geographer Strabo considered cataphracts with horse armor to be typical of Armenian, Illyrian, and Persian armies
    Does this mean that the Illyrians used heavily armored shock cavalry in the Eastern (or even Greek) vien? It does make some sense considering their contact with various Hellenic states I suppose, and it would be a cool regional, but I'm not sure about the reliability of the info. Please note that this is not a proposal for an Illyrian faction, those threads are everywhere anyways. I'm just curious, and if there is any meaningful data on the matter I'd love to see it. (I'm also aware that Augustus only exists towards the very end of the EB timeframe.)


  2. #2
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    Quote Originally Posted by -42- View Post
    I cannot be sure how reliable or relevant this is, but I was just going over this wiki and saw this sentence.


    Does this mean that the Illyrians used heavily armored shock cavalry in the Eastern (or even Greek) vien? It does make some sense considering their contact with various Hellenic states I suppose, and it would be a cool regional, but I'm not sure about the reliability of the info. Please note that this is not a proposal for an Illyrian faction, those threads are everywhere anyways. I'm just curious, and if there is any meaningful data on the matter I'd love to see it. (I'm also aware that Augustus only exists towards the very end of the EB timeframe.)

    can you link us all to the wikipedia article itself? It's possible that the guy misquoted his source.

    EDIT: ok, I found the paragraph in which this is found; tracking the source reveals a work by a certain Perevalov, S. M. (2002), the work in question being "The Sarmatian Lance and the Sarmatian Horse-Riding Posture", Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia 41 (4): 7–21

    it doesn't actually lead to the paper itself, so I cannot verify it here. googling "Illyrian Cataphracts" just mostly leads either to the wikipedia article, or stuff regarding Belisarius (well after the fall of the western empire). and I don't know what chapter of Strabo this is supposed to be either. :(
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 01-18-2011 at 01:37.
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  3. #3
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    From the article:

    "At the turn of our era, cataphracts with defensive armament for horses were considered typical of the national army for Armenians, Albanians, and Midians (Strab. XI. 4.4–5), p. 502;XI.14.9, p. 530)."

    Editors note on this:

    "The ethnic groups named here do not perfectly correlate with modern-day Albanians and Figure 5. A horseman with two-handed [dvuruchnyi] lance: an engraving on a sixth-century dish from Isola Rizza (from Boss 1993). Armenians. This is relevant to current politics of national history concerning the origins of “White Albanians.” For more on the politicization of debates about ancestral correlations, see Victor A. Shnirelman, The Value of the Past: Myths, Identity and Politics in the Transcaucasus (Osaka: National Museum of Ethnology, 2001).

    Out of the pictures depicting horsemen and cata's it's clear that somewhat armoured two handed chargers are meant. But not the super heavy knight like armoured men on fully armoured horses. Some of the guys depicted wore nothing more than a scale shirt and helmet. It's not anything grivpanvar like. At least that from a quick look of the article, didn't read it. Just looked for the passage and took a look to the pretty pictures.

    In other words it just seems the author claimed that the "ancient albanians" used a double handed lance, quite similar and probably due to influence of the Sarmatians and were armoured in the same way. With even some defensive armament. But not like I said not the super heavy catanks.

    Now someone else look up the passage mentioned if you want more information.
    Last edited by Moros; 01-18-2011 at 03:59.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    albanians and epirotes aren´t the same ? and could illirya be aplyed to another geographic area more to the east ? if not i guess some epirote sucessor of phyrrus decided to create a cathraphact cavalry forçe (i mean they had elephants afterall so shouldn´t be hard for them to buy a few armours or armourers from the east)

    if not this will end up like the basque royal guard totally armoured soldiers who never or hardly could constitute a unit in eb (or if they did it would end up being something like 50 guards on huge)

  5. #5
    Member Member Epimetheus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    Wouldn't "Albanians" in this instance more likely refer to Caucasian Albanians, rather than Illyrian ones?

  6. #6
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    Quote Originally Posted by Epimetheus View Post
    Wouldn't "Albanians" in this instance more likely refer to Caucasian Albanians, rather than Illyrian ones?
    That's exactly what it means. Nice spot there.

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  7. #7
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    Indeed. Especially considering the mention of the following bookat the footnote:
    Myths, Identity and Politics in the Transcaucasus

  8. #8

    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    That clears that up then. Small wonder I could find no mention of them in any other sources.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Just Something I Noticed

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    albanians and epirotes aren´t the same ? )
    no they are not the same .

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