Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 80

Thread: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

  1. #1
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Ok guys I after taking into account everything I know i've finally come the conclusion. The greatest commander in history is......., actually its a tie.

    Julius Caesar and Napoleon both win. Napoleon and Caesar are equals, but they are both better than the rest.

    I think that people usually get too caught up in the simple "history" of the other commanders but really might "overrate" their actual military skills. For example I can't name the number of times I've heard people discount Napoleon in a debate simply because "he lost". Yet they completely ignore his Italian Campaign which could easily outclass almost anything Khan or Alexander ever did in pure tactical skills. Or they mention how Khan rose up from nothing or Hannibal had such low support, yet they fail to see the absolute brilliance in how Caesar handled Roman politics (arguably he cruelest one in history).

    Infact I honestly dont think that the rest even deserve to be in the top five, but I just put them because they are more known. But regardless even if I put some of the superior commanders than Alexander, Khan, or Hannibal that would not change the outcome.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Ricdog; 04-04-2011 at 16:05. Reason: Necessary more info

  2. #2
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    3,269

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    I think you haven't really thought this through.

    A monastery is a place of discussion about history and this topic might be interesting but you need to explain your position for the discussion to actually start. Otherwise, others may as well just list their favourites and that would be the end of it.

    So, if you plan to start an interesting discussion, edit the OP with reasons or the moderator will probably close it. If you're just looking for a childish peeing contest, moderator will again close it...

    Oh, and welcome to the .Org.

  3. #3
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    I gave a little more info on my reasoning for picking the two winners, but not too much detail. Hope this is what you wanted.

  4. #4
    Member Member Harkilaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    48

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Hannibal had such low support.
    This is actually a common misconception - he had lots of support - only his other commanders completely failed - the Battle of Dertosa in 215 BC won by the Scipio brothers against Hasdrubal Barca's army he was bringing to Italy really dealt Hannibal's efforts a terrible blow. Not only did he lose a large contingent of men coming to support him from Spain, but massive reinforcements from Africa were sent to replace those men lost to the Scipios to defend Spain. At such a critical time, with Rome on the back foot, this could well have been what Hannibal needed to win the war... but of course, some things were not in Hannibal's control.

    They did manage to send him some reinforcements in 215 BC, but - possibly under Hannibal's orders - other reinforcements were sent to other war zones - an army was sent to try and take Sardinia, but failed, and the army sent to Sicily was ultimately destroyed by an epidemic, though Hannibal had tried to support this push by sending one of his best officers, Muttines, there with some Numidians. The Carthaginian navy was poor, and even when they outnumbered Roman fleets they either sailed away or got defeated. In Italy on two occasions large numbers of men coming to reinforce him from his allies were completely destroyed.

    Towards the end, Mago was still sent to purchase mercenaries among the Ligurians and Balearic Islands which he used to hassle the Romans in northern Italy in the last years of the war, before being recalled.

  5. #5
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Aah, few things in life please me more than my reputation for moderating brutality.


    My own favourite - shock! - is Napoléon.






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Welcome to our forum, Ricdoq!


    To bid you welcome, here is a picture of our mutual favourite. I took the picture myself, ages ago, when I spent an afternoon in the Invalides.



    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  6. #6
    Member Member Harkilaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    48

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Sadly my knowledge on Napolean isn't all that great - but I shall get around to learning about him one day! An audio book could be handy as I work though!

  7. #7
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Harkilaz View Post
    This is actually a common misconception - he had lots of support - only his other commanders completely failed - the Battle of Dertosa in 215 BC won by the Scipio brothers against Hasdrubal Barca's army he was bringing to Italy really dealt Hannibal's efforts a terrible blow. Not only did he lose a large contingent of men coming to support him from Spain, but massive reinforcements from Africa were sent to replace those men lost to the Scipios to defend Spain. At such a critical time, with Rome on the back foot, this could well have been what Hannibal needed to win the war... but of course, some things were not in Hannibal's control.

    They did manage to send him some reinforcements in 215 BC, but - possibly under Hannibal's orders - other reinforcements were sent to other war zones - an army was sent to try and take Sardinia, but failed, and the army sent to Sicily was ultimately destroyed by an epidemic, though Hannibal had tried to support this push by sending one of his best officers, Muttines, there with some Numidians. The Carthaginian navy was poor, and even when they outnumbered Roman fleets they either sailed away or got defeated. In Italy on two occasions large numbers of men coming to reinforce him from his allies were completely destroyed.

    Towards the end, Mago was still sent to purchase mercenaries among the Ligurians and Balearic Islands which he used to hassle the Romans in northern Italy in the last years of the war, before being recalled.
    Yea that was pretty good. I only mentioned that statement because a lot of people use that misconciption of him.

  8. #8
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Yea this is actually really a response thread to one started years ago.

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...n-or-Alexander

    I was rather shocked to see comments that degraded Napoleon (and sometimes Caesar) so much.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    mayo
    Posts
    4,834

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    We should resurect some of those old MTV celebrity deathmatch episodes and settle these once and for all
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 04-05-2011 at 00:53.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  10. #10
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not in Kansas anymore Toto....
    Posts
    971

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Whereas Gehngis Kahn was a great commander, as well as a great conqueror, Alexander and Napoleon left a much greater legacy to posterity IMO. Both of them left behind a lasting influence on not only military thinking, but political and cultural domains as well. The "Code Napoleon" is still the basis of the French legal system today. I addition, who can deny the influence of Hellenism in both the east and west that resulted from Alexander's conquests? There are not many such achievements left by the Gehngis Kahn, outside of Mongolia, where he is still revered, that I am aware of. All three, of course were noted for their alleged brutal practices during their many campaigns. Is there really any other way for a tyrant to behave?
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  11. #11
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    9,634

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    It's about luck and having a good scribe
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

  12. #12
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Wherever my blade takes me or to school, it sorta depends
    Posts
    6,007

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    rotor your simply wrong about Genghis khans long lasting effect on the world. You should do a little more research on him. Alexander's long lasting effect is negligible in comparison and Hannibal's is nearly non-existent. As well Napoleons is overinflated in my opinion. you can throw around Hellenism to which I can say were more effects of his successors.

  13. #13
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    9,634

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    lOL

    Could you at least point him in the direction of some research?

    One could point out that it was the Mongol unification of Asia that granted Europeans access to the spice trade and when the empire subsequently fractured and the mid east was overtaken by the Turks whom in turn cut off the Europeans from the spices.

    This of course forces the Europeans to turn elsewhere and in this venture were led by Spain in Portugal, whom for reasons that are pertinent to the thread were the natural choices. Portugal led by Henry the Navigator basically claimed the Africa route forcing Spain to sit there wondering how to get around the damned Portugese when some idoit Italian (synonomous I suppose) contrives some hairbrained scheme using bad math based on pretty good Greek calculations. Of course Isabellas advisors know he's an idoit and reject the plan but for some reason (most likely due to her vagina, not saying she had an affiar just that she was stupid) she kept him around until the Muslims were kicked out of Granada in 1492 (Such a hectic year) Of course now that Spain is unified she sends this man on his merry way and Im sure you can fill in the blanks from there


    But yea insulting the poster is equally as good
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

  14. #14
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Wherever my blade takes me or to school, it sorta depends
    Posts
    6,007

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world
    Genghis Khan: history's Greatest Empire builder
    Anything by Conn Iggulden.


    Access to greater Eastern trade is merely the tip of the iceberg. And it was not insulting. If you really want the post to be negative you would be better placed to use a term like reprimand.

    Edit: Especially the Jack Weatherford book. One of my favorite books of all time.
    Last edited by Centurion1; 05-03-2011 at 23:04.

  15. #15
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    9,634

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

  16. #16

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Greatest commander of all time? Would you ask Alexander to lead the Allies against Nazi germany? He would probably use the bullets for a game of tossing the cans.

    All great and famour commanders are "Great" in their own time and region. Non is greater then the other because each faces different enemies under different circumstances.

    This is by all means stupid and looking at the list, without a doubt, too euro centric too be taken seriously.

  17. #17
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by East East Wild View Post
    Greatest commander of all time? Would you ask Alexander to lead the Allies against Nazi germany? He would probably use the bullets for a game of tossing the cans.

    All great and famour commanders are "Great" in their own time and region. Non is greater then the other because each faces different enemies under different circumstances.

    This is by all means stupid and looking at the list, without a doubt, too euro centric too be taken seriously.
    Indeed I believe I mentioned I dont believe several in the list even belong in the top best, however due to popularity i simply chose them. But just outta curiousity who would you also put on the list.

    I disagree with any of the differences in tech and or time. I believe that regardless of those a general showes his genius for what he did and that remains so for the ages.

  18. #18
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Wherever my blade takes me or to school, it sorta depends
    Posts
    6,007

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by East East Wild View Post
    Greatest commander of all time? Would you ask Alexander to lead the Allies against Nazi germany? He would probably use the bullets for a game of tossing the cans.

    All great and famour commanders are "Great" in their own time and region. Non is greater then the other because each faces different enemies under different circumstances.

    This is by all means stupid and looking at the list, without a doubt, too euro centric too be taken seriously.
    I disagree about euro centric. who would you include over alexander the great. hannibal is maybe unreaosnable but he was a tactical genius he just failed at politics. and genghis khan is certainly no european.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    I disagree about euro centric. who would you include over alexander the great. hannibal is maybe unreaosnable but he was a tactical genius he just failed at politics. and genghis khan is certainly no european.
    Any Emperors/kings that managed to outlive his oponent while expanding/creating their lasting(at least a few centuries) empire/kingdom during their life time but eventually died in his death bed an old man manages accomplished more than Alexander the Great, who conqured a massive persian empire that consisted of a huge piece of underpopulated central asian land. Who's failed campaign against the indian kingdoms was written like a victorious defeat?
    Just too many if you are willing to dig up a history book THAT IS NOT ABOUT EUROPE.

    His military exploit is genius but his empire fragmentated into pieces as soon as he gibbed. He is great for his time, like all other generals who are famous in their time and region, but he is not always evidently better nor worse then the others.

    Of the 3 generals in the list, 2 are europeans or at least mediteranian(Zzz). Who doesn't know about Mr Temujin? (Only known to the european because one of this general raided eastern europe with a "relatively small" expedition twice...kicking ass)

    If anyone one of you are able to name a few generals outside of european history that is not Mr Temujin, Great Khan of Mongol(or his generals that actually did the raiding). I think alot of people will be very impressed.

    Honestly I don't know enough about other famous generals outside of European history either but I would not just "conveniently" pick them up from my favourite "region" or history book and then try to brand them as the "Most successful military commander in HISTORY!"

    Childish and definately euro centric.
    Last edited by East East Wild; 05-13-2011 at 05:53. Reason: content adding

  20. #20
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by East East Wild View Post
    Any Emperors/kings that managed to outlive his oponent while expanding/creating their lasting(at least a few centuries) empire/kingdom during their life time but eventually died in his death bed an old man manages accomplished more than Alexander the Great, who conqured massive persian empire that consist of a huge piece of underpopulated central asian land? Who's failed campaign against the indian kingdoms was written like a victorious defeat? Just too many. His military exploit is genius but his his empire fragmentated into pieces as soon as he gibbed. He is great for his time, like all other generals who are famous. No better no worse then the other famous in their time.

    Of the 3 general in the list, 2 are europeans or at least mediteranian(Zzz). Who doesn't know about Mr Temujin?

    Can anyone one of you name a general outside of european history that is Mr Khan of Mongol.

    Honestly I don't know much about other famous generals outside of European history but I would not just "conveniently" pick them up from my favourite region and then try to brand them as the "Most successful military commander in history!" childish and definately euro centric
    Khalid ibn al-walid, Winfield Scott (if you dont consider American a European), Yi Sun Sin (although he was an admiral), Han Xin, Tamerlame, etc... Well if you dont want to consider European generasl the greatest, then who? I dont want to be ignorant of other regional leaders, indeed I dont know as much about them as the European ones, but I still have yet to meet many that could even be said to be greater than Fredrick the Great (or even his equal).

  21. #21

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Indeed I believe I mentioned I dont believe several in the list even belong in the top best, however due to popularity i simply chose them. But just outta curiousity who would you also put on the list.

    I disagree with any of the differences in tech and or time. I believe that regardless of those a general showes his genius for what he did and that remains so for the ages.
    I wouldn't put any or start such a thread.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Khalid ibn al-walid, Winfield Scott (if you dont consider American a European), Yi Sun Sin (although he was an admiral), Han Xin, Tamerlame, etc... Well if you dont want to consider European generasl the greatest, then who? I dont want to be ignorant of other regional leaders, indeed I dont know as much about them as the European ones, but I still have yet to meet many that could even be said to be greater than Fredrick the Great (or even his equal).
    No one else is greater than Fredrick the great? Isn't that just your opinion? See how pointless this thread is?

  23. #23
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by East East Wild View Post
    No one else is greater than Fredrick the great? Isn't that just your opinion? See how pointless this thread is?
    Well ofcourse someone is better than Fredrick the Great, but then I would probubly name mostly Europeans (which is what you dont want). I meant say that when you limit the option to non-europeans then it gets harder to name a good amount of generals that could beat him.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Well ofcourse someone is better than Fredrick the Great, but then I would probubly name mostly Europeans (which is what you dont want). I meant say that when you limit the option to non-europeans then it gets harder to name a good amount of generals that could beat him.
    How so? Your statement just proved my point. If you had suggested "Who is the most succesful commander in the european history" I would not be bothered.

    But the trend I see from such threads have never failed to amuse me when people start putting up threads like "Greatest general of the WORLD" then came out with a list of generals mostly from the european history. Can you blame me for thinking that this is too euro centric? History does not revolves only arould that part of the "world".

  25. #25
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by East East Wild View Post
    How so? Your statement just proved my point. If you had suggested "Who is the most succesful commander in the european history" I would not be bothered.

    But the trend I see from such threads have never failed to amuse me when people start putting up threads like "Greatest general of the WORLD" then came out with a list of generals mostly from the european history. Can you blame me for thinking that this is too euro centric? History does not revolves only arould that part of the "world".
    Proved what point, that its all euro centric? Yes history does not revolve just around Europe, but military history probubly does. If European generals generally are the greatest in history, then its acceptable for these kinds of threads to be "euro centric". Unless ofcourse evidence is given to show that there is plenty of other non european generals to balance everything else.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Proved what point, that its all euro centric? Yes history does not revolve just around Europe, but military history probubly does. If European generals generally are the greatest in history, then its acceptable for these kinds of threads to be "euro centric". Unless ofcourse evidence is given to show that there is plenty of other non european generals to balance everything else.
    Again you prove my point. Because europeans generals generally, are not the greatest in history and that is just an opinnion from most european, who are generally(naturally) proud of his own history or that of a person who only knows mostly european history, generally. Saying "probably" does not make it most probable either. European countries only started to catch up around the 15 and 16 hundreds and eventually advanced ahead the rest of the world, as world dominating powers much much later.

    In our era, they are no longer the dominating powers either((again).
    Last edited by East East Wild; 05-13-2011 at 06:47.

  27. #27
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Wherever my blade takes me or to school, it sorta depends
    Posts
    6,007

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    tamerlame, nobunaga, sun tzu, how many more do you want.

  28. #28
    Member Member Ricdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    tamerlame, nobunaga, sun tzu, how many more do you want.
    Well from what I know, this is not enough. I might think that someone like Scipio Africanus is beyond any of the three mentioned here.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Okay I would be impressed but I am really not. And your point for being able to name these people now is to impress?
    Last edited by East East Wild; 05-13-2011 at 06:53.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Alexander the Great vs Napoleon vs Julius Caesar vs Genghis Khan vs Hannibal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricdog View Post
    Well from what I know, this is not enough. I might think that someone like Scipio Africanus is beyond any of the three mentioned here.
    Oh hey, its okay, you can name him and called him the "Greatest Commander in History". At least to you it true I suppose.
    Last edited by East East Wild; 05-13-2011 at 07:07.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •