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Thread: Fighting Power

  1. #1

    Default Fighting Power

    Fighting Power by Martin van Creveld is a book I read a year ago. It works on the assumption that the average German soldier, or at least small unit, had more "fighting power" than its American equivalent. After establishing this assumption, it attempts to explain why this was so. All I really remember is that the Germans seemed to have had a superior replacements system and devoted more attention to the psychological well-being of the individual soldier. Well, before the hit the fan, at least.

    At some point in the book I started taking notes on flash cards. I stopped after realizing that I was covering at best 10 pages an hour. So read them, I guess. Also, note that I'm not editing these in any way.

    They are below (and possibly out of order):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Card 1
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    • Truppenfuhrung - war is art, unpredictable; only success matters (decisive action)
    • US - scientific management? Similar to ^ though
    • Germany - operations; America - logistics + organization
    • German - mission oriented; objective/purpose is framework and methods are individual
    • US - managerial; tries to lay out methods and predict situations; little on individual, initiative, surprise, or maneuver
    • Feldheer & Ersatzheer
    • Feldheer military operations, Home Command logistics + admin
    • Ersatz in charge of Interior (Heimat) with Home Command - Gen. Fromm
    • Stauffenberg - Fromm's Chief of Staff, July 20 plot, Fromm + Stauffenberg executed
    • Field and replacement armies - counterpart "twin" units (Feldheer, Ersatzheer)
    • Standardized fundamental units formed into unique and independent task forces
    • Kampfgruppen - common by end of war


    Card 2
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    • Corps - 1.5% HQ staff in 65000 men
    • Army of 2-300K - ~1% staff HQ
    • German unit in combat commanded by General Staff in Operations
    • US - Division has Chief of Staff who manages 4 equal Assistant CoS's of Personnel, Intelligence, Operations and Training, and Logistics; all participate in combat (less specialized staff)
    • 1945 - 10.6K Division 4% staff HQ, 7% for Armored
    • US Divisions have up to twice as many officers
    • American Corps - 1/3 officers in staff, D staff was officers (CO), but in German counterpart was ~1/7
    • German 1939 ID - 91% in combat 10% in services units (56% infantry), 9% services; 1939 AD - 86% in combat units (26% armor, 27% inf), 14% in services <--- 350 tanks
    • 1944-5 PzGren Div - 14446 men, 89% in combat units
    • Been seeing "Beamter" for a while - "official clerks"? Very few in #
    • Officers in equal proportion to NCO, enlisted, in combat

    Card 3
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    • Commander + staff, map department, dispatch, MP, signal, three subunits, special troops and support troops (administrative, supply, sanitary) in a unit
    • German units formed from distinct German identities (Prussian, Bavarian, etc.)
    • To keep social homogeneity, made new divisions instead of keeping old up to strength; beneficial?
    • US - War Department, General Staff commanded all land and sea forces
    • Army Ground Forces - training
    • Army Service Forces - replacements
    • Similar to German model, but German troops used special troops outside of their intended roles more; summer '44 idel para army in England
    • German units known after commander, but not American units
    • In WW1, US had similar German system - troops from same region
    • US Army 91 (89 combat) divisions in WW2, so couldn't be rotated but always up to strength


    Card 4
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    • US 1945 ID <---- 14037 men - 89% in combat units (66% infantry), 11% service; AD 84% in combat units (28% inf, 20% armor) - 10670 men
    • Officers distributed equally between combat, service
    • In US forces, AT artillery <- dist. among other arms
    • Because US dislike using specialized forces outside role, engineers "auxiliary"
    • * Special Divisional Slices Table and other Table
    • US - end of 1944, 5.7 million army personnel, average divisional slice 64000?
    • Many replacements - actual strength (on.) ~13400
    • 20.8% army's strength in its divisions - 40-50% of usual German (see previous tables); however, US Army more centralized, so many nondivisional units under direct army and corps command, so Jan 1945 div slice - 57% combat troops, but 38% with 21000 replacements in training + "overheads in troops bosis" added
    • Between 1942-45 combat units less poportionally; many fit men given Zone of Interior jobs


    Card 5
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    • Germany - decentralized personnel administration; handled mostly by regimental commanders
    • Mutual trust between soldier & immediate superiors?
    • At beginning of war, Central Personnel Office did not keep detailed manpower statistics; but no changes made, opposition by officers
    • Avoid increase in burden on troops
    • Need for replacements determined by relative importance + authorized strength and losses reported every 10 days
    • * Constant stressing by author that German army was opposite of blind obedience, bureaucratic stereotype
    • Sophisticated coordination of wounded
    • US Personnel Admin - centralized, mechanized, mathematical models
    • Importance of quantification + statistics
    • Constant search for additional organization
    • Worked poorly? - 1942 officer shortage, 1943 massive surplus
    • Extremely complicated Officer Evaluation Report with point system; 20 grades of officer quality
    • German officer aassessment (Beurteilung) every 2 years, simplified in Nov. 1942, asked for officer's subjective opinion of subordinates, no Y/N


    Card 6
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    • Men over 35 in German combat units in frontline constantly being replaced by younger men
    • 17.9 mil "passed" through Wehrmacht + Waffen SS 9/39 - 4/45
    • By end of war more manpower in LW + KM & esp. SS at expense of Heer
    • Heer prestige went down - by Dec 41 had no exclusive CiC
    • Manpower peaks - Army in 1943/6.55 mil (Ersatz usually ~1/2); Airforce in 43-44/1.7 mil; Navy in 1945 44/810000 (30000 in 39); SS in 45/830000 (35000 in 39); Total 43-44/between 9.4-9.5 mil
    • Army classification + assignment of enlisted men based on physical exam by physician, put into 6 classes (i.e. fit for garrison, unfit for defense)
    • Max 80 people per physician daily
    • During examination Musterung preliminary exam review (Musterung) commander conversed with recruit to get mental condition, find defects
    • Decision of fitness made on spot, told to subject
    • Next stage of enrollment (Aushebung) - short phys exam, assignment based on phys condition, education, profession, paramilitary training & <-- preference

    Card 7
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    • Final dist. section unclear, but involved unit commander
    • Simple decentralized personal system reliant on subjective opinions
    • Military psychologists - massive training effort
    • Psych lab <--(1926-42) only processed .5 mil 33-39, employed 200 psychologists in 39.
    • Closed in 42 because Keitel's son did not qualify to be officer
    • Mostly processed specialists (i.e. pilots, radio operators)
    • Moral attitudes, character traits (courage, loyalty, etc.) <-- personality > technical/mechanical aptitude
    • Psychological assessment must be a "work of art"
      Point
      4 brave men Ardant du Pique Picq Etudes de Combat
      Very Strong interpersonal relationships in units, common backgrounds
      Improvised units had low morale and broke quickly





    I have no idea what I was on about with some of these. I guess I'm just not a good note-taker. Anyway, comments on these data/arguments? Oh, and these notes cover at best a quarter of the book, so read this ( http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com.../chapter4.aspx) review for a better idea of the book's premises and conclusions.

    I anticipate the Frenchman.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I'm not here to argue anything. I'm just one of the tourists.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  2. #2
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm not here to argue anything. I'm just one of the tourists.
    Oh, that's such a pity! We love arguments around here!


    Anyway, thank you for you post! I don't really have anything interesting to say about it. But I'm positive others do - the world is fascinated with the amazing German war machine which won two world wars.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Fighting Power

    It has been a while since I read Fighting Power, but I believe Creveld bases the assumption of superior German combat effectiveness on Dupuy's Quantified Judgment Method (today, the Tactical Numerical Deterministic Model) first demonstrated in Numbers, Predictions & War, which is the most comprehensive analysis of combat effectiveness yet conceived. Others, including Niklas Zetterling and Christopher Lawrence used somewhat different statistical methods and came to similar conclusions, although the latter found gradual German declines in superiority as the war progressed.

    Here's the oft-quoted short and fast version from Numbers, Predictions & War, page 61:

    We didn't like one of the two conclusions which this adjustment forced upon us---that 100 Germans were roughly the combat equivalent of 120 Americans or British---but we could not ignore the fact that our numbers demonstrated that this was so.
    And here is a decent summary of the process from Future Wars, Appendix B, page 323:

    As mentioned above, the analysis of some of the discrete military events described in this book were made possible by use of the TNDM, a computer assisted, mathematical model of combat. The origins of the TNDM go back to 1965 when I was working on a research study for the US Army, which had for its purpose an evaluation of the trends in the lethality of weapons over history. I developed a concept of measuring this in terms of their ability to inflict casualties, or to do other damage, over a period of time. the result was a methodology for calculating the Operational Lethality Index (OLI) of any weapon at any time in history. The characteristics considered were accuracy, reliability, number of human targets rendered, casualties for each 'strike' of a weapon, the range at which it could do damage and the density of the target array. For mobile fighting machines like tanks or aircraft or warships, which combine one or more direct fire weapons with mobility and protection, consideration was given to factors representing the speed of the machine, its range or radius of operation and its ability to survive when hit by hostile weapons. The calculations in applying these considerations and characteristics of a given weapon produced a numerical proving ground value representing the number of casualties the weapon could inflict in one hour under ideal circumstances.

    The next step in the development of a model of combat was the derivation of the Quantified Judgment Method, which used historical experience to consider all the factors affecting the actual ability of all the weapons in a military force to inflict damage upon an opponent on a battlefield. Among the many physical variables affecting the effectiveness of weapons - and forces equipped with weapons - were such obvious factors as terrain, weather and season, as well as more complex but nevertheless important factors such as mobility and vulnerability. Values or methods of calculating values, for these factors were obtained by detailed analysis of 60 WWII battles which took place in Italy in 1943-44. these values were tested and confirmed (or in a few instances slightly modified) by applying them to battle data for about 150 additional battles or engagements, mostly from other theatres of WWII, but including 15 battles from World War I and about sixty from the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli wars, plus 2 from the Napoleonic Wars and 2 from the American Civil War.

    One thing which became very evident in this process of quantitative historical analysis was the overwhelming importance of human factors. But what also became evident is that - dispute the vagaries of human nature and behavior - values representing human factors fell into clear patterns. One need only look at the application of actuarial analysis to insurance and medicine to realize that this is typical of human nature and human behavior in all fields of endeavor and activity and under any and all circumstances. When human beings are involved, there will always be exceptions to the patterns; for instance, the survival of some people to ages of more than 1oo years. But the patterns are clear.

    Since my colleagues and I were dealing with a large number of examples - initially 60, later more than 200 - our analysis was actuarial. Others like American military historian Theodore Ayrault Dodge about a century ago , have flirted with the concept of patterns in battles and warfare. but, prior to the development of the Quantified Judgment Method, no one had attempted to do this systematically and scientifically.

    The first human factor I was able to quantify was that of surprise. Next and possibly most important, was that of relative combat effectiveness. It is evident from the most cursory look at history that some armies and generals have performed better than others, regardless of circumstances. Our detailed analysis of the first 60 battles in Italy forced us (reluctantly I must say) to the conclusion that the Germans were consistently better than the allies (British and Americans) by a margin of about 20%. This meant that, on average, the quantified predictions of a battle's outcome could be matched by the quantified results, only if a factor of 1.2 were applied to the Germans. Yet we also discovered that one or two American divisions performed as well as some of the best German divisions; further analysis revealed that this was a reflection of leadership qualities. On the Eastern Front, the relative combat effectiveness value (CEV) of German superiority over Soviets averaged an amazing 2.5 from 1941 to 1943 and was still about 1.8 at the end of the war. In other words, given comparable equipment, 100 German soldiers were the equivalent of about 120 American or British soldiers and about 250 Soviet soldiers. This does not mean that the Germans were stronger, smarter, braver or more highly motivated that their Allied opponents; they were simply more professional.

    Similarly, we discovered an average Israeli CEV superiority of 2.0 over Arab opponents in the Arab-Israeli wars. Thus on average, 100 Israeli soldiers in those wars were the equivalent of 200 Arab soldiers. the differences between the Arabs - in clear patterns - was also interesting. The Jordanians were the best, having a CEV with respect of the Israelis of about 0.6 (in other words, the Israeli CEV was about 1.6 with respect to the Jordanians. The Jordanian CEV relationship to the other Arab forces was as follows: Egyptians 1.15, Syrians 1.3, Iraqis 1.8. Again we do not believe that the Israelis were smarter, stronger braver or more highly motivated than the Arabs, or that the Jordanians were some kind of super Arab. It is simply through a combination of cultural and professional phenomena the Israelis have proven themselves able to utilize their forces more effectively than have their opponents and that the Jordanians are evidently professionally superior to the other Arab forces.
    There were numerous reasons why the Germans were more combat effective than the various Allied formations, many of them present in your notations. I don't think their relative importance can ever be accurately calculated, and, in any event, the results of those inputs were more synergistic rather than individual in their effects - if that makes any sense.

    Personally, I believe the biggest contributing factor in combat effectiveness is empowerment. The Germans pushed responsibility for decision-making farther down the organizational hierarchy than any of the Allied militaries. At each level, commanders issued their orders and left the execution in the hands of those below them, instead of engaging in the type of detailed planning that the Allies attempted, which can often become distorted and irrelevant to the situation on the ground. Their NCO's had far greater authority on the battlefield in deciding how to structure their combat operations than those of the other armies.

    My assessment is bared out in Dupuy's findings to a certain extent. The Germans had the highest level of individual empowerment, followed by the Americans and British, with the Russians highly controlled at the lower levels. Also, individual empowerment of the type the German military advocated has been largely adopted by Western militaries. US and British forces in Iraq circa 2003 had far more operational freedom at all levels than they did in, say, Normandy.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 07-04-2011 at 07:02.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    French are coming...

    Fascinating indeed. How the very superior war machines that started 2 wars on their terms never succeeded to win in always a wonder.

    Was the German Soldier better than the Allies ones?
    I would be tempted to say yes, as Germany was preparing a new war from very soon after 1918.
    So when you trained soldiers during years and years, of course you get better-trained soldiers.
    Now, were the German Soldiers really better individually? I doubt.
    All the successes of the early war (1939-1941) were obtain thanks to a better tactic and most of the time better equipment (against Poland, Holland, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece, and UK). We can discuss about the French material but it is a side discussion.
    Without the strike at Sedan and the Ardennes gamble, would the Germans get this absolute success? Nobody is able to give an answer.

    Now, when the German soldiers had to fight a not out-flanked and in full-retreat ally soldier, the truth is he was far than that successful.
    The earliest German “defeat” in Gembloux showed that the German Panzer Divisions failed to break the French Infantry Divisions lines. And the French tankers had good success against the German tanks even if some of them (the French) were poorly trained.

    But this is not a “scientific” study.
    I tried to understand how the researchers came to these conclusions.
    And I didn’t get it.

    In the eastern front, the German were allied with the Croats, Hungarians, Rumanians, Bulgarians, Finish and Italians. You have to add all the auxiliaries Cossacks, Foreign SS Divisions and other troops (e.g. Vlassov).
    So how the accountability was done?

    About Italy, the German were in a defensive position in mountains.
    So with these standards, the French Alpine Army (190,000) was the best ever Army as they stopped Mussolini Italian Army (450,000) in 1940, even with the German attacking on their rear with the same lack of success than the Italians.

    This kind of “studies” are just part of THE myth reinforcement. Germany alone against the World but fighting until the end and fall only under the sheer numbers of opponents…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    This kind of “studies” are just part of THE myth reinforcement. Germany alone against the World but fighting until the end and fall only under the sheer numbers of opponents…
    Have you read Numbers, Predictions & War? Trevor Dupuy was hardly a myth maker. All of your objections are thoroughly discussed and taken into account in his calculations.

  6. #6
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    - the world is fascinated with the amazing German war machine which won two world wars.

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    I also lulz at the attempnt to deconstruct the German war model as if it's any different from the French, British, or American one,

    All are heavily influenced from Northern European post reformation thought.

    Eisenhower is not surname that comes out of the contential 48 LOL
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #7
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I also lulz at the attempnt to deconstruct the German war model as if it's any different from the French, British, or American one,

    All are heavily influenced from Northern European post reformation thought.

    Eisenhower is not surname that comes out of the contential 48 LOL
    The German army did things differently and generally more efficiently, at least in the early part of the war. I don't see how "post reformation thought" automatically produces the same military thought at the same time for everyone. The fact is that in 1940 the French and British were excellent armies to fight a 1919 campaign but utterly sucked at handling the next generation of warfare.

    An army can obviously be better on several levels. 1940 was primarily an operational victory as the Germans attacked the only place they had a chance of breaking through. It was an allied fiasco as the ones who had warned about the potential danger from the Ardennes sector simply were not listened to by fossilized leaders who hardly had moved on from WW1.

    The German army also had a leadership culture of local initiative that was several generations old. They had learned to deal with and accept the chaos of war, whereas the Allied idea was more an attempt to use preparation and planning to take out the chaos element. It meant the Allied response was generally too slow. The German thrust could have been stopped if it hadn't been for counter attacks that just took one or two days too long to prepare, only to be cancelled because time had run out.

    But that is 1940 and not the US army. AFAIK Dupuy did not make a detailed analysis of Normandy and beyond, and for Normandy there is even some confusion about German casualties with missing and POW's so it is not easy to say how much better the Germans were, if they were better. But one thing that stands out is the horrible US replacement system, sometimes soldiers were thrown directly into the front line hardly knowing what unit they were in.

    If the Germans had any advantages in France, it was that even newly raised divisions had still been built up from a hardcore group of veteran officers and NCO's who knew how to train and lead their men.
    The Panzer divisions were generally better at the combined arms thingie while Allied units were still learning.

    If we then remember that anywhere between 70 to 80% of all casualties happened in the rifle companies/battalions then we should appreciate the effect of training, experience and teamwork. I'm not sure how much Dupuy is factoring in difference in weapons at the lower tactical level, but modern Western armies are not using the next generation BAR or Bren gun but rather the next generation MG42 in the form of belt fed LMG's. As German battalions had a slight advantage in numbers of medium and heavy mortars then perhaps it is not entirely far-fetched to think that they overall had a firepower advantage.

    But it does not change the fact that USA managed to build up an army from scratch within a few years and that army did an OK job, with their biggest mistake being the replacement system IMO.
    Last edited by CBR; 07-04-2011 at 17:23.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    "Have you read Numbers, Predictions & War? Trevor Dupuy was hardly a myth maker. All of your objections are thoroughly discussed and taken into account in his calculations.": No I didn't. Not sure I have time now to do it as I was made redundant last week... But I have a a-priori against this kind of research mostly suspect in my eyes...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    AFAIK Dupuy did not make a detailed analysis of Normandy and beyond, and for Normandy there is even some confusion about German casualties with missing and POW's so it is not easy to say how much better the Germans were, if they were better. But one thing that stands out is the horrible US replacement system, sometimes soldiers were thrown directly into the front line hardly knowing what unit they were in.
    IIRC, Dupuy only did six engagements from the late Normandy campaign (July+) and the Lorraine Campaign in Numbers and found the US forces to actually be significantly worse than they were in Italy. Six engagements versus the sixty plus he looked at in Italy makes the former data set inherently less illuminating, of course.

    Also in one of the appendices of Hitler's Last Gamble, Dupuy applied his formula to a number of Ardennes Offensive engagements and found rough equivalence between the two forces with the Germans still edging out the Americans by a small degree.

    No I didn't.
    Trevor Dupuy was a West Point graduate, and fought in WW2 in Burma. After the war, he taught military history at Harvard and was involved in numerous Cold War era military strategy think tanks. He wrote many books with the most famous probably being the massive Encyclopedia of Military History. His QJM was actually a far reaching exercise meant to be used for future conflicts, not an effort to establish which side was better in WW2. If he can be taken at his word, which I do not see why he shouldn't be, the overwhelming German superiority in combat effectiveness apparent in his results was unexpected and not particularly welcome considering his former employ.

    Obviously, quantifying something like combat effectiveness can never be achieved with any real level of precision, but the consistency found in his quantification is, IMO, a legitimate observation.

    Not sure I have time now to do it as I was made redundant last week...
    I'm really sorry to hear that. From what I can tell, you're a bright guy and shouldn't have much trouble finding something new. I hope things pick up.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 07-08-2011 at 11:16.

  10. #10
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "Have you read Numbers, Predictions & War? Trevor Dupuy was hardly a myth maker. All of your objections are thoroughly discussed and taken into account in his calculations.": No I didn't. Not sure I have time now to do it as I was made redundant last week... But I have a a-priori against this kind of research mostly suspect in my eyes...
    OT. You don't work for the News of the World do you?

    I think the nail was firmly hit on the head with the suggestion that the German Armed Forces had more time to train and learn new tactics. Also remember they had a 'dry run' so to speak in the Spanish Civil War. This was especially evident in the Battle of Britain.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  11. #11
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    I'll pick up Numbers and Last gamble and see if he adds more to the books of his I already got.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    I was made redundant last week... But I have a a-priori against this kind of research mostly suspect in my eyes...
    Very sorry to hear it. Go get a new job and make your old employer redundant.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    100 Germans = 120 Allies sounds about right to me. It's not a very large difference, so I don't see why it should get anyone's back up. You only have to read about the North Africa or D-Day campaigns to find it eminently plausible. (Or play a wargame of those encounters.)

    The only doubt I have about this kind of study is how to separate the advantage of a defensive position and (perversely) a losing position. The Germans almost never were on the offensive against the Americans (Kasserine being an exception, but also one where the Americans were decidedly green.) And the Western Allies were often in a position of such superiority - specifically long term superiority: they knew the would win (Churchill in December 1941: "So we have won afterall") - that I think their men softpedalled a bit. No point dying if you are going to win anyway. By contrast, the Germans increasing found themselves in a desperate situation where going down fighting would have seemed quite rationale. I'd wager that if the Germans fought outside London or Washington, you'd might have found 100 Allies = 120 Germans.

    I wonder what the estimates were for the Russians? It's more widely agreed that the Germans were superior man for man on the Eastern front, but I've always thought the Russians were rather better than they are often given credit for. At least after the first disasterous year.

  14. #14
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    I don't see why anybody should get his back up - it is a statistical impossibility that all armies are all equal in every aspect.

    Some invested in boots, others in equipment. Some in offensive capability, others in defense. some in naval, other in air power. This has an effect. They are all different.


    That also shows one needn't be too impressed with fighting power itself. The object is to win a war, not to have as much fighting power as possible. Imagine two teams, five guys each. Team A trains one member to be a soldier, the other four build fantastic, novel equipment for him. The single fighting member will be a super soldier, capable of defeating three poorly equipped guys. Team B understands this, and poorly equips four guys, with the final fifth ordering champagne for their victory.

    Team A's soldiers may be three times as good as those of team B, but team B wins. Team B wins by a better allocation of resources. Any similarity here between Germany vs Josef 'more brains than all Nazis together' Stalin is entirely coincidental.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  15. #15
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I wonder what the estimates were for the Russians? It's more widely agreed that the Germans were superior man for man on the Eastern front, but I've always thought the Russians were rather better than they are often given credit for. At least after the first disasterous year.
    Dupuy says an average of 100 Germans to 250 Russians. Being even better in the early part of the war and worse near the end. But AFAIK that is based on numbers that could have changed since the end of the Cold War.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Interesting. A 100 to 250 ratio is much more dramatic. (The 20% difference between Germans and Western Allies sounds almost within a likely margin of error).

    I did a quick google of Dupuy's work and was puzzled by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Military History Online
    In an effort to investigate the reason for consistent findings of German combat superiority, the group made a comparison of fighting strength versus overhead for German and American infantry divisions, based on tables of organization for 1943-44. This comparison showed that in a German infantry division, 59.83 of the personnel strength was involved in serving or manning weapons in a normal combat situation. The relative number in an American infantry division was 50.26 percent. This comparison "suggests" that "part" of the finding of overall German superiority "probably" was the result of better utilization of manpower.(80)
    If 100 Germans = 120 Allies refers to all soldiers, then the difference in personnel strength manning weapons surely explains all the difference in combat power. Given the numbers cited, you would have 60 Germans and 60 Allies manning weapons and so they would be equal, ceteris paribus.

    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com.../chapter7.aspx
    Last edited by econ21; 07-10-2011 at 03:06.

  17. #17
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    If 100 Germans = 120 Allies refers to all soldiers, then the difference in personnel strength manning weapons surely explains all the difference in combat power. Given the numbers cited, you would have 60 Germans and 60 Allies manning weapons and so they would be equal, ceteris paribus.
    Yeah it would explain part of it but bear in mind that US infantry divisions were supposed to be flexible formations that could have extra units attached, stuff like tank and tank destroyer battalions or heavy mortars etc. So it should be rather rare for a bare bone division to fight alone.

    A US WW2 era instructional video has an interesting comparison of the Garand v the BAR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfaL...ailpage#t=539s

    In other words one BAR gunner is equal to five riflemen. A MG42 might do two or three times the ROF in the LMG role, so one MG gunner could have (if we accept the perhaps simplistic argument of a linear effect from an increase in rate of fire) similar firepower as a full US infantry squad. Perhaps it is no wonder that they nearly doubled the number of BARs in companies after D-Day.

    So although US infantry had a superior rifle I would still say the Germans had a firepower advantage at the lower tactical level.

    I do believe there might also be some differences in defensive doctrines, although I don't know enough detail.



  18. #18
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    Facts and reason.
    LOL, I just needed and excuse to post the picture
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  19. #19
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    I did not expect anything else from a Texan

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    In the appendix to Hitler's Last Gamble, the authors state (Appendix H, p499):

    The Germans are not and were not a "master race" as Hitler claimed. They simply organized themselves for war better than we did [my note: I would assume this is reference to battlefield organization, as the US and the Soviets were far better organized on a national scale] they made better use of their weapons; they were more professional than we were.

    The German Army had adopted a military system that had been developed by the Prussians in 1807 after they had been overwhelmingly defeated by the French under Napoleon.

    This military system, a cultural development and not inherent to the German people, built around the superb Prussian General Staff, produced leaders and soldiers who on average fought better than their enemies, including the United States.
    They go on further to state [in reference to the Ardennes Camapign]:

    On the other hand, there can be no doubt that American troops fought well in the Battle of the Bulge. Yet Patton was right. The Germans were better, at least during the first days of the battle and, on balance, in most instances for the entire campaign.

    The average German soldier in the Ardennes campaign was not as well trained as the average American soldier. The fact that the Germans retained an average combat effectiveness superiority, even though at a lower margin than earlier in the war, was due to the continuing high standards of German professional leadership.
    In reference to van Creveld's book Fighting Power, Dupuy himself had this to say:

    My book, A Genius for War, was cited admirably by Israeli historian Martin van Creveld in his book, Fighting Power: German and U.S. Army Performance 1939-45. Van Creveld obviously leans heavily on my conclusions about the excellence of German combat performance in WW II. He then compares the American Army in WW II very unfavorably with the German Army. I strongly disagree with van Creveld in this respect. The specifics of most of his comparisons were simply very wrong. The Germans were very good; they were the best. But the Americans fought pretty well in WW II, also. We just weren't quite as good as the Germans.
    Their final conclusion:

    Why were the Germans better than we were? The answer is, in brief, the superior military system noted above. Man for man, the typical German soldier was not smarter, braver, stronger, or more highly motivated than was the American soldier. But their leaders were, for the most part, more professional.
    Richard C. Anderson, one of the co-authors of Hitler's Last Gamble, is a regular poster at the Tanknet Forum. He might be willing to answer questions....depending on the mood he's in...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-11-2011 at 15:18.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21
    The only doubt I have about this kind of study is how to separate the advantage of a defensive position and (perversely) a losing position. The Germans almost never were on the offensive against the Americans (Kasserine being an exception, but also one where the Americans were decidedly green.)
    Dupuy's model was designed to factor out all observable variables in battle such as offense/defense, terrain, weapons, and so on, leaving only the human element - morale, training, leadership, etc.

    Also, while the Germans were usually on the strategic defensive, that defense relied heavily on localized counterattacks as per German doctrine. Dupuy's study was based primarily on division level engagements. In Italy, for example, his numbers included 13 German attacks with an average Allied CEV of .58 compared to an overall average of .71 (over 1.00 being better than the German forces and less that 1.00 being worse).

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    For those who are interested, the TDI forums shed some light on the hows and whys of the QJM. I won't reference any particular topic as there are many...and you need to expand the topic list to include all topics because many are 5-6yrs old or more.

    http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/cgi-bi...assCookie=true
    High Plains Drifter

  23. #23
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    I am 2/3 of the way through reading Anthony Beevor's book on D-Day/the Normandy campaign. From what he says, a fewer number of germans held back a larger number of Allied troops -and in ways that the allies would go on to learn (to their increased effectiveness). There are the differences in equipment, but strategically -the germans did not suffer from Monty, but did from Hitler; while the crucial factor was the overwhelming air superiority and ground support it provided to Allied troops (delaying and reducing german armour/columns before it even engaged allied troops).

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    I have little remorse to speak about a book I didn’t read.
    However, the Germans never succeed to held the lines. In 1941, first defeat in front of Moscow followed by few successes until Stalingrad. From mid-1942, the German Army doesn’t stop to retreat.
    So, the result shows that the effectiveness of the German War Machine wasn’t that good.

    Now to kill more enemies or to counter-offensives are not sign of more effectiveness. The Soviet had the same doctrine (as Germans and Russians were training together even before Hitler took power) had it lead them to disasters in the first months of the war. It was not until they learned to defend that they were successful.

    In term of individual soldier, I have difficulty to imagine how to calculate his effectiveness as most of the results heavily depend on the tactic and strategy.
    Without the Ardennes attack would the German Soldier so successful in front of his French/English counter-part? Without the element of surprise would Fort Eben-Emael fall so quick? With a proper English Commander, Crete would have been a disaster even if, in my opinion, the German Paratrooper were one of the best fighters of the time, but their parachutes were crap so their weapons had to be drop in containers…
    How to you calculate their effectiveness?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  25. #25
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    How to you calculate their effectiveness?
    I would suggest:

    1. Read one or more of Dupuy's books

    2. Use the link I provided above and visit the TDI forums
    High Plains Drifter

  26. #26
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fighting Power

    Just because The Germans and Russians trained a bit with tanks and aircraft a decade before the war does not mean the Russians had same doctrine nor same level of training.

    So, the result shows that the effectiveness of the German War Machine wasn’t that good.
    Overall result is not important. It is about how well the units fought and casualties produced and suffered compared to the odds. And odds is a combo of numbers, terrain, fortification, surprise, weather, weapons etc.

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