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Thread: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

  1. #271

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    So the task would be:
    Start modded Shogun Multiplayer Campaign with a friend, and check the unit entries, if they are still modded, or vanilla.
    After playing a Game, if Avatar achievments are still there, or are set back to zero.
    Is this correct?
    I already started a modded Campaign with a friend, before I posted here. And there we could a desync after ca. 30s. In this time I just could see, that the research is modded, but I didn't check the stats of the units. This I will do with a friend tomorrow.

    A Lan MP Mode would be also good, then we just would have to use hamachi.
    Last edited by Kaiser de Emperana; 10-24-2011 at 16:06. Reason: corrected a misspell (,you set back->,or are set back)

  2. #272
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    No, once more about the avatar thing: If you play via Steam online in MP, with a mod that changes MP unit codes, then the avatar achievements (yours) will be set to zero automatically, by Steam.
    That, was the thing in the past, and one reason why S2R+ is not a MP mod at all.
    If this is still the case, and i assume yes it is (why should CA/Steam have changed their anti-cheat-automation now?), then making S2R+ MP-able is obsolete.

    And only a LAN MP gaming with S2R+ is an option overall (which i would support with my efforts, if there are enough, speak, many S2R+ gamers, who wanna play it in LAN).
    Last edited by DaVinci; 10-24-2011 at 01:13.
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  3. #273

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    First, congratulations on making an amazing mod. I have played all the major overhaul mods for shogun 2, and yours is by far my favorite. I have been following these forums for a while now, but I didn't feel the need to register until now. I love S2R+ so much that I feel inspired to give some feedback.

    One thing I would like to see in S2R+ is a modified in-game encyclopedia like TROM 3 has. It would make the game much more enjoyable to play to know the attributes of all the buildings and units ahead of time and have an easily accessible reference for when you forget. It is especially frustrating when the tooltips on certain building are broken (Nanban Quarter comes to mind), and you have no idea what they do unless you just bulid them blindly and then compare the pre- and post- construction city details pages.

    One of my only real complaints with S2R+ 2.9 is the tight unit caps. Every game I hit the unit caps on every type of unit I can recruit. I build as many different types of buildings as possible only in order to get more total units - sometimes I even build buildings, recruit the units they unlock, then destroy them to build something else. When clans with one province and clans with 5 provinces have the same caps on total number of units in play, things get kind of weird. For instance, the metsuke ability to bribe units can be abused in this situation - in one campaign as the Shimazu I repeatedly incited revolts with my missionaries (I had converted to christianity), then bribed the rebel armies with my metsukes just to get around the unit caps. This resulted in me having several more stacks of troops than any other clan could possibly field, and me predictably rampaging across the countryside a few turns later.

    Also, in the ikko ikki and uesugi campains it would be nice if warrior monks did not require the blacksmith or merchant colony buildings - if you lose your home province you lose the ability to recruit clan-special warrior monks at all. I am sure this applies to some other clan/unit/building combinations too, but none come to mind at the moment.

    PS I also applied to join the dev group.

  4. #274
    Member Member Hister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    One thing I would like to see in S2R+ is a modified in-game encyclopedia like TROM 3 has.
    That is also my wish - it would make the whole mod experience more rounded. DV said though that he won't be making it and that it's up to us helpers to do it. If you are up for it then you are kindly invited. We also need one more tester so if you have spare time you can beta-test internal versions.

    tooltips on certain building are broken (Nanban Quarter comes to mind)
    This is a vanilla issue that can be bypassed somewhat but it also depends on the type of screen you have - the smaller the less you see. In the new internal versions though I haven't spotted any such occurances.

    One of my only real complaints with S2R+ 2.9 is the tight unit caps.
    That was also a complaint of GShock, one of the internal beta testers but the system is designed the way it is. Yari ashigaru's are not capped though so your statement is not entirely correct.
    DV said it would take a 6 months of development time to change this and he ain't doing it.

    in one campaign as the Shimazu I repeatedly incited revolts with my missionaries (I had converted to christianity), then bribed the rebel armies with my metsukes just to get around the unit caps.
    While this is a good example of how you can exploit the design it is of course suggested not to do it in order not to spoil your gameplay experience/immersion. Make a houserule for yourself. ;)

    Also, in the ikko ikki and uesugi campains it would be nice if warrior monks did not require the blacksmith or merchant colony buildings - if you lose your home province you lose the ability to recruit clan-special warrior monks at all. I am sure this applies to some other clan/unit/building combinations too, but none come to mind at the moment.
    Up to DV to answer.

    PS I also applied to join the dev group.
    If you promise to be useful for the team you are welcome aboard. Means we don't appreciate people who apply just to get access to internal versions, make a small report and then disappear.
    Last edited by Hister; 10-28-2011 at 08:35.

  5. #275
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Update version 2.96 uploaded.


    [Last open beta prior to final v3.0]
    .
    Last edited by DaVinci; 10-31-2011 at 18:42.
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  6. #276
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Just uploaded v2.96.1 (as quick patch/balancing), see changelog.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 10-31-2011 at 19:44.
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  7. #277
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Slight update, v2.96.2 uploaded.
    TWC Wiki: List of TW Modding Contributions 2005-2011
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  8. #278
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Slight update, v2.96.3 uploaded.

    Just decided to make all upcoming updates until final v3.0 as open betas, equal how small they are (requirement for an updated version is though, that the alteration has potencial for a changed gameplay, even if it might be small).
    The changelog always describes the alterations.
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  9. #279

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quick comments on v2.96.3:

    1) Hattori doesn't have access to the Late3 Yari Ashigaru unit (the one capped at 48 units), I wonder if this is by design?

    2) The changelog stated that the realm divide code is back to near vanilla status, however the prestige level required for legendary status is still at unrecheable number (1000?), effectively disabling realm divide prior to taking Kyoto --- again I wonder if this is still by design or not. Personally I prefer the approach where you'll get hit several times (i.e. legendary status, taking kyoto) with an initial high negative value that diminishes over time -- in such a way that you'll still get that -200 penalty if you hit legendary and take kyoto in a relatively short time. But then again that's just me, and I can modify the db directly no problem.

    3) With this mod, I wonder if it is still relevant to have the Ashikaga spawner enabled. In both of my two campaign with this mod, I see Oda AI repeatedly assaulting Kyoto to no avail. I didn't really notice the process, but after several attacks by Oda, the Ashikaga evidently has 3.5 stack of armies which do not respect the unit caps -- I don't see how the other clan's AI will be able to defeat that kind of army with the restriction from this mod.

  10. #280
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    I'll look at the things listed, except for Hattori, as this is intention, ie. Hattori as AI is not supposed to be a winner faction.

    Oh, as for Ashikaga unit spawner, that's probably not something that can be modded out completely, if you know a way how to removing, rather disabling, the spawn code effectively and completely, then please let us know how.
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  11. #281

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    I got back into S2R+ after a break so there have been a lot of changes done to the game than I last remembered. I have some issues with how the units are balanced but I believe that is a moot issue. This is realism, after all, and I don't want to launch into a debate over playability and historicity. What really has put me off in the latest version is that aside from the first 30-40 turns, no one seems to want to fight. And I don't just mean me, but anyone for that matter. Periodically I would check the diplomacy tab for relations with other clans and there would be total peace instead of total war. All the clans would possess no more than 3 provinces and most possessed 1 or 2. Huge stacks would sit in their respective castles and just do nothing at all. Right now I am perhaps 100 turns into the campaign and have not been aggressed upon by any clan throughout the whole game.

    Is this because I did not include hedge knights AI mod?

  12. #282
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by sakuraoni View Post
    I got back into S2R+ after a break so there have been a lot of changes done to the game than I last remembered. I have some issues with how the units are balanced but I believe that is a moot issue. This is realism, after all, and I don't want to launch into a debate over playability and historicity. What really has put me off in the latest version is that aside from the first 30-40 turns, no one seems to want to fight. And I don't just mean me, but anyone for that matter. Periodically I would check the diplomacy tab for relations with other clans and there would be total peace instead of total war. All the clans would possess no more than 3 provinces and most possessed 1 or 2. Huge stacks would sit in their respective castles and just do nothing at all. Right now I am perhaps 100 turns into the campaign and have not been aggressed upon by any clan throughout the whole game.

    Is this because I did not include hedge knights AI mod?
    Your observation of total peace/no war is unknown, no clue why you are experiencing a peaceful campaign (for 100 turns ... lol, c'mon), maybe you are playing it with Easy or Normal camp difficulty, might be the culprit?
    What's your faction?

    Hedge's AI mod is implemented/customised in S2R+, as described in the release post.

    Do you use any other mods with S2R+, if yes, which?

    However, as already mentioned i'll look into the diplomacy file, for an update-version - that will change something in regard of AI behaviour.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 11-29-2011 at 03:24.
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  13. #283

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    I'll look at the things listed, except for Hattori, as this is intention, ie. Hattori as AI is not supposed to be a winner faction.

    Thanks for the confirmation. I actually prefer it that way ,since this means as Hattori to be able to have larger armies (IIRC, mine maxed out around 3 stacks with all tech researched and without DLC), you will need to use bribery, and the Ashikaga is near anyway ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Oh, as for Ashikaga unit spawner, that's probably not something that can be modded out completely, if you know a way how to removing, rather disabling, the spawn code effectively and completely, then please let us know how.
    No idea for that, however I read someone suggesting zero-ing out the CDIR_DESIRE_ASHIKAGA_UNIT_SPAWNER to lessen the effect. I tried that, and the Ashikaga has not add new stack on the field since the start of the campaign, and their military status around 1960-ish is "weak". However once I declare war on them, they suddenly change status to "moderate" and has half new stack ready. I'll try to test more scenarios, especially those related to how other AI at war with Ashikaga deal with this.

  14. #284

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    My suggestions regarding diplomacy on two topic. Please excuse if some of the info below are already obvious -- I tried searching the forum but couldn't find similar one, but then again I'm new with this whole forum thing ;)

    1) Inciting rebellion

    I'm under the impression that aside of realism factor (which I have limited knowledge of but like the result anyway), this mod tries to limit "exploitations" by limiting trade-ships, unit-caps, etc. If that's true, I suggest the mod also deals with exploitation of inciting rebellion.

    As we know inciting rebellion can be exploited to obtain more provinces while avoiding direct war with a powerful AI clan. And in addition with the unreacheable prestige level for legendary status on the current realm divide setting of this mod, this allows one to use rebellion strategy to steamroll provinces except Kyoto, and then take that one only near the end. Unlike other agent actions, inciting rebellion is also the one that I haven't seen the AI perform on me: infact I don't know if the AI clan even uses this one.

    So here's my notes and suggestion on this:

    First I notice that inciting rebellion is not a fully secret/undercover operation like ninja's assasination for example, so regardless the result (successful or not) the player will always get hit with a diplomatic penalty for this. The difference is, a failed attempt on inciting rebellion will be counted as "sabotage attempt", while successful attempt will be counted as "incited revolt". The sabotage attempt category also cover things such as building sabotage, etc -- while the "incited revolt" is there specifically for, well, successful rebellion. This means that we can put higher penalty on incited_revolt without effecting the other (less exploitable) sabotage attempts.

    Another observation is that the initial hit value of on successful rebellion (currently -40), is also its maximum value -- so if you perform two subsequent successful rebellion against a clan, you will get -40 on the first one, and it will still be at -40 on the second attempt (i.e. already maxed out). So the total penalty can not go any higher than the initial hit like on the other penalties such as "threat of attacks" for example.

    This all means, that the only way we can prevent a very-friendly clan from staying very-friendly after a successful rebellion incitement (strange phenomenon when you consider the act itself isn't a secret), is by drastically increasing the incited_revolt initial hit. I figure at least -100 should be the minimum, to counter the friendly effect of long term trade (+60) and alliance (+40). So for an example, if you recently perform a failed assassination (-50) against a long-term ally clan, and some other forms of failed agent action (-35 on sabotage), AND you perform a successful rebellion, then the total hits will be -185, enough to ruin all but the most strong relationship. And if this happens after the realm divide (see below), it should be enough to incite war on the next few turns.


    2) Realm Divide (updated observation)

    I search the forum a bit but couldn't find similar info, so I'm posting my observation and understanding on the event first. This observation is only taken on hard difficulty as it is the one used for balancing on this mod.

    First, what I know about penalty on RD:

    - Initial penalty of 2x of "realm_divide" parameter on diplomacy_attitudes_tables when you hit legendary status. This currently will never happen on this mod.
    - Initial penalty of 1x of "realm_divide" parameter on diplomacy_attitudes_tables when you declare war on Ashikaga. This doesn't happen if it's Ashikaga who declare war on you.
    - Initial penalty of 1x of "realm_divide" parameter on diplomacy_attitudes_tables when you successfully take Kyoto.

    The penalty is accumulative, so if you declare war of Ashikaga, reach legendary, then take kyoto, the total penalty will be 4x. With this mod, the realm_divide value is at -15, so the total initial penalty will be max -30 (2x for declaring war and taking kyoto) and progressing slowly (-2) each turn until -200. On vanilla, the realm_divide value is -10, so the maximum total initial penalty will be -60 (4x), and progressing rather quick (-5) each turn until -200.

    Second, aside of the penalties above, one feature of the realm divide is the state where every clan will immediately choose sides until no one is without an alliance or at war with someone. For example, a new born clan will automatically sided with someone else if you didn't ally with them immediately, a not so friendly ally will turn their back on you, and so on.

    My conclusion so far is that this specific condition, which i refer below as "real realm divide" condition, will only be triggered by the legendary status.

    Now, as mentioned, the current state of this mod disables the potential of reaching legendary status. To verify the impact of this, I use one save game where as Uesugi I occupy most of the eastern land and at friendly terms with everyone. The campaign was initially started using the setting of this mod v2.96.3 unmodified so my status at save time is at "acclaimed".

    On the first test case, I use the unmodified setting of this mod and declare war on Ashikaga. I was hit with the 1x realm_divide penalty as above, and on the next several turns few clan eventually turn indifferent because of that, but no one is in a hurry to start picking sides. Even a hostile but otherwise peaceful/small clans do not declare war on me, in other words aside of the diplomatic penalty, nothing really changes on this campaign.

    On the 2nd test case, using the same save game, I use the setting of this mod PLUS I restore the privilege required for legendary status from 1000 to 100. Since I occupy many provinces already, my "acclaimed" status actually have exceed the legendary requirement when I loaded the save (i.e. the bar is immediately full), but the game haven't notice it yet. So here I declared war on Ashikaga as before, then end my turn. As expected, I get the legendary status notification and video, and before the AI turn is over everyone already start picking sides, neutral clan attacking my ally, my ally requesting trade embargo against my friend which is their enemy, etc -- i.e. the whole real realm divide condition. The hit on this case is 3x, which is 1x for declaring war on Ashikaga and 2x for the legendary status.

    On the 3rd test case, I retry the 2nd test case but didn't declare war on Ashikaga prior to ending my turn. The real realm divide condition still occurs, but my final hit is only 2x.

    On the 4th case, I tried a new campaign as Hattori, declared war on Ashikaga on 1st turn, and got the 1x realm_divide penalty as intended -- but the other clans don't immediately choose sides after that -- and I obviously didn't get the realm divide video/popup either.

    So again, legendary status seems to be a requirement for having the real realm divide condition. Therefore I suggest to at least let it still happen by restoring the privilege requirement for that.

    FWIW, for my personal use, currently I change the realm_divide parameter of this mod to: limit = 0, change per turn = 3, change once = 65, and privilege requirement to 100. In effect, a legendary status and taking the initiative to declare war on Ashikaga and rushing to take kyoto will give me -260 (4x) penalty which will only subside completely after 22+ years, but a tactful approach will first only hit me with a -130 (for the inevitable legendary status), and should stay within that limit if I delay taking kyoto until at least 5 years later.

  15. #285

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Your observation of total peace/no war is unknown, no clue why you are experiencing a peaceful campaign (for 100 turns ... lol, c'mon), maybe you are playing it with Easy or Normal camp difficulty, might be the culprit?
    What's your faction?

    Hedge's AI mod is implemented/customised in S2R+, as described in the release post.

    Do you use any other mods with S2R+, if yes, which?

    However, as already mentioned i'll look into the diplomacy file, for an update-version - that will change something in regard of AI behaviour.
    Oda, on Hard. I'll give you my save file if you don't believe me. Go ahead and scroll through the diplomacy tab and see that there is not a single clan in the game that is at war with anyone. Even if I was on Easy, would other clans do that? No other mods were included except for the extended campaign and a cosmetic mod that removes the gloss on armor.

    I installed hedge knights UI just to see what would happen and started a new Takeda/Hard campaign and took a much more aggressive stance than in the Oda campaign and even there I am seeing little changeover of provinces that do not involve me. I have been attacked unprovoked once so that by itself was different.

  16. #286
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by sakuraoni View Post
    Oda, on Hard. I'll give you my save file if you don't believe me. Go ahead and scroll through the diplomacy tab and see that there is not a single clan in the game that is at war with anyone. Even if I was on Easy, would other clans do that? No other mods were included except for the extended campaign and a cosmetic mod that removes the gloss on armor.

    I installed hedge knights UI just to see what would happen and started a new Takeda/Hard campaign and took a much more aggressive stance than in the Oda campaign and even there I am seeing little changeover of provinces that do not involve me. I have been attacked unprovoked once so that by itself was different.
    You can view the AI steps per year in the Record tab.

    The observation of the AI behaviour during the campaign was a focus while the whole development/internal testing. As said, such an outcome of no war is unknown, as of yet at least (means, until you reported it).
    I suggest you playtest the mod without the Extended Campaign mod, as it might have a trigger on AI behaviour (i do not know the files which come with this mod). Edit: The mod is also balanced in a way, that you as player (or possibly a strong AI) is able to fulfill the victory conditions in time (1600), and if 1600 is reached, the player will be asked anyway to play further.
    Another point is that Oda and also Takeda are the most strong factions unit-wise, and the AI knows this, ie. Oda got support that if he survives as AI, secured its position, has good chances to expand successful - but, this wouldn't explain that all other regions / AI factions are complete calm in your experience, and that never happened in our internal testing, so i'm still puzzled about your experience.

    However, there might be something in the diplomacy file (some last changes by me, will check this soon), that needs revisions anyway to increase the aggression vs. at least the human player (who is just mostly the most successful faction, if not chosen a defensive playstyle) but also between AI's, and that revision will be done next - afterwards i'll playtest myself again to see what goes on.

    Btw., the separate UAI (Hedge's AI mod) makes less sense as Addon, as said the mod is implemented in a customised fitting way.
    Last edited by DaVinci; 11-30-2011 at 00:25.
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  17. #287
    TW Modder Since 2005 Member DaVinci's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    @ asinkering

    Thank you for your indepth-investigations. I'll without doubt come back to this, will belong to the diplo file changes. If you find out more, don't hold it back
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  18. #288

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    After trying out all the major mods out there, including the Darthmod and TROM3, I must say that Realism+ is the mod that takes the approach that I like the most: limited number of samurai units per faction, battles that don't always result in more than half of the men being slaughtered.

    I'm only into a few turns in the campaign and can't comment on the campaign experience yet (so far I'm liking what I'm seeing), but here's a couple of things that made me wonder:


    1. Japanese-derived unit names: while this feature may add immersion factor to those not familiar with the language, the downside of it is that, unless it is perfected, it actually kills immersion factor for native speakers, including myself. There are basically two factors that bring forth this sort of oddity:

    a. artificial use of language/overkill - Words like Inaka, Shosen, and Shiro, while correct words, sound rather excessive; it's like writing "Ich am ein city fellow" - there's nothing like this that drives natives speakers crazy!)

    b. anachronistic word usage - Use of terms like Han and Chugen became only popular in the later Edo period (in the case of "Han," it was coined by a particular school of thought that didn't look the Tokugawa's rule with favor, IIRC), nor they are commonly used in contemporary literature on the Sengoku era.
    (and there are of course simple errors like "Ko Ju" ("Kojo" is the word for "siege) or words that simply didn't exist at the time like "Roketto")


    2. Ronin: I'm sure that DaVinci is knowledgeable enough to realize that unit variety based on weapon is a necessary "fantasy" that you just have to work with in Total War games; in reality, of course, as he wrote in the unit description thread, men with different weapons would be fighting side by side.
    Still, Ronin as a unit name doesn't sound right on two levels, one obviously being that you would not see these "samurai class" people fighting as one group, but the same goes for any other samurai unit in the mod so I'm not really concerned about it. The other problem is what actually matters to me: the fact that there's a group of "samurai-for-hire". I have no idea why the word "Ronin" came to be so popular in samurai literature/media in the West, but in a mod that depicts the reality of the time so well, I think their presence in the mod as a unit is unwarranted.
    I think there are much better alternatives out there, like Jizamurai, whose leading figures would have been in general rich enough to afford weapons and armors that we often associate with samurai.


    3. Chugen/Gesakunin/Sakunin: Besides Chugen being an anachronistic term, dividing the peasant class neatly like this gives someone the impression that the Sengoku era was a strictly hierarchical society to the extent that the Edo era was. While that is true to some extent, the thing about the Sengoku era is that there was no strong legal enforcing factor like that which maintained the Edo system of hierarchy; social hierarchy during the Sengoku era would have been much more dependent on economic background especially for those with no clear samurai lineage.
    I think what I'm trying to say is that unit names for the "peasant" units need not be as strictly divided as they are now but can rather be left ambiguous to reflect the ambiguity of class lines among the non-samurai people.


    4. "shogun_extralong_pike": I'm not sure if that's the exact name, but I realized that there's only one unit that uses the "extralong" pike weapon type in the mod, and almost all of the peasant and Ashigaru units use the short or medium yari. Is that intended, possibly for gameplay reason? Extra long yari for Ashigaru is of course historically more appropriate, certainly from 1545 onward, but if AI has problem dealing with units with this kind of pikes, I would understand why you opted not to use it.
    I just converted all of Ashigaru and peasant yari units to use the extra long pikes on my end. Because the yari are so long, the men actually look like they are wielding the weapon in any way they could so that they can hit the enemy's body, which is totally appropriate.


    5. More use of yari & less use of cavalry?: Once again, I'm certain that DaVinci knows that yari was the preferred hand-to-hand weapon of the day, as "collective" warfare became more common and extra long yari was easy to kill someone with without much training. Do you plan to reduce the number of katana units for the sake of historical accuracy? The same goes for cavalry: there's now more voice being raised in the academia that the use of cavalry as depicted in various media dealing with the Sengoku era is a myth. But there's always someone who likes to see katana-wielding samurai in the game, so maybe this is too extreme an option for the fan base.


    6. Samurai unit limit: Somebody raised this question in the last page, but I'd love to see this aspect of the mod improve: i.e., the limit goes up as you conquer more provinces. I think DaVinci mentioned that the only way to get around it is by tying clan-specific units to specific provinces, so that you have "unique" units with recruitment limit in each province. Don't know how the unit list in the custom battle would look like if you do that, though.


    That was a long list, but that's how much hope I have in this mod. This mod really delivers already, and with some more polishing the mod could be even more amazing! I don't have much time to play the game at this point, but I'll be sure to lurk around in two weeks or so, I'll have more time to spare by then.
    Last edited by Dainagon; 11-30-2011 at 18:56.

  19. #289

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    You can view the AI steps per year in the Record tab.

    The observation of the AI behaviour during the campaign was a focus while the whole development/internal testing. As said, such an outcome of no war is unknown, as of yet at least (means, until you reported it).
    I suggest you playtest the mod without the Extended Campaign mod, as it might have a trigger on AI behaviour (i do not know the files which come with this mod). Edit: The mod is also balanced in a way, that you as player (or possibly a strong AI) is able to fulfill the victory conditions in time (1600), and if 1600 is reached, the player will be asked anyway to play further.
    Another point is that Oda and also Takeda are the most strong factions unit-wise, and the AI knows this, ie. Oda got support that if he survives as AI, secured its position, has good chances to expand successful - but, this wouldn't explain that all other regions / AI factions are complete calm in your experience, and that never happened in our internal testing, so i'm still puzzled about your experience.

    However, there might be something in the diplomacy file (some last changes by me, will check this soon), that needs revisions anyway to increase the aggression vs. at least the human player (who is just mostly the most successful faction, if not chosen a defensive playstyle) but also between AI's, and that revision will be done next - afterwards i'll playtest myself again to see what goes on.

    Btw., the separate UAI (Hedge's AI mod) makes less sense as Addon, as said the mod is implemented in a customised fitting way.
    I agree with you, it is strange and I have never experienced this problem in S2R+ until now. After I get home from work, I'll gather some screenshots and post the records. Maybe it's just a freak occurence but if it isn't, it can make a campaign a game of knocking down bowling pins - clans standing around not consolidating power making them ripe for the picking.

    Your mod has definitely created an environment where the player and the AI are encouraged to recruit and use ashigaru units and because of this game has a much more authentic feel than either vanilla or in Darth Mod. On that note, however, the samurai units feel remarkably unstoppable against any ashigaru unit. Typically (and this is anecdotal) in a 1 to 1 fight, a Sakunin Yari (600 strong) unit would inflict perhaps 10 casualties yet sagainst a samurai unit before being routed.

    There's also an issue about archers, the ashigaru variety in particular. They don't seem to inflict any casualties against the well armored samurai and against the poorly armored ashigaru they only do moderate amount of damage.

    Personally, using archers is not part of my play style so this doesnt mean much to me. In terms of the AI, however, they don't have the same impression that I have on their effectiveness. It makes fighting the AI less of a challenge (though there havent been any archer spam thank goodness).

    Also, are the AI's directed in any particular way regarding the bushido and chi arts?

  20. #290

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dainagon View Post

    That was a long list, but that's how much hope I have in this mod. This mod really delivers already, and with some more polishing the mod could be even more amazing! I don't have much time to play the game at this point, but I'll be sure to lurk around in two weeks or so, I'll have more time to spare by then.
    Meh. That's splitting hairs when it comes to names. Winnowing down the weapon variety to pikes, bows and guns would make the game less enjoyable and reducing the prevalence of cavalry will make battles much less dynamic.

  21. #291

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by sakuraoni View Post
    Meh. That's splitting hairs when it comes to names. Winnowing down the weapon variety to pikes, bows and guns would make the game less enjoyable and reducing the prevalence of cavalry will make battles much less dynamic.
    I understand that, of course, hence the concession at the end of that paragraph.

    Regarding unit names, I think what you are saying is exactly what the mod is doing right now (like I said earlier, it's an overkill).

  22. #292
    Member Member Hister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    @Dainagon:

    Regarding the unit names and use of Japanese words: Such a result was expected. Naturally us Westerners find all this OK but to the native like yourself things can get messy. We were resorting to online dictionary so you can imagine. We could have been much worst off don't you think?
    I'm not sure if DV will will be willing to change the names and the like again (it's quite a lot of work) but if you are into it I encourage you to provide proper words. Suggest the names/naming.

    On your point 3. while I can only agree with you we still have to denote the differences for the player. Having all different ashigaru units under rhe same or very similar name would not be very good from the gameplay perspective.

    On point 4. you gave a nice suggestion - DV might expand the rooster of units holding this longer spaer/pike.

    On point 5., later on in the campaign the shift is made towards less samurai and more ashigaru units wileding yari. You'll see that when you play campaign long enough. As for cavalry DV himself will have to answer that question.

    On point 6. tha twas debated a lot also inetrnally but a development span of a t least half a year of non stop work would need to be invested in order to provide such a system. Not a viable option for DV.

    ... and thank you for all the nice words - much appreciated!

  23. #293

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    Regarding the unit names and use of Japanese words: Such a result was expected. Naturally us Westerners find all this OK but to the native like yourself things can get messy. We were resorting to online dictionary so you can imagine. We could have been much worst off don't you think?
    Oh yes, apart from a few simple errors and odd use of words, the unit roster was pretty recognizable. It's above average in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    I'm not sure if DV will will be willing to change the names and the like again (it's quite a lot of work) but if you are into it I encourage you to provide proper words. Suggest the names/naming.
    I will come up with a list sooner or later. In any case, the ones I mentioned earlier are the ones that I would place high on the list if the names are to be changed (e.g. Inaka, Shiro, Han... and Sensei, which I didn't mention last time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    On your point 3. while I can only agree with you we still have to denote the differences for the player. Having all different ashigaru units under rhe same or very similar name would not be very good from the gameplay perspective.
    Sakunin and Gesakunin are ok IMO. It's Chugen that bothers me the most... I'll need to come up with something here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    On point 4. you gave a nice suggestion - DV might expand the rooster of units holding this longer spaer/pike.
    Upon checking it, the entry is called "shogun_infantry_extralong_yari". There's only one unit (a DLC-based unit, in fact) that uses this warscape equipment theme.

    Another question that I should have asked is how moddable the campaign setup is. There are some glaring errors in the vanilla like Hojo's capital being located in Izu, Date being way up in the north, Ouchi's clan leader being Yoshioki (who had been dead for around 20 years or so), Ouchi having absolutely no control over northeastern Kyushu, etc. that need fixing. If not, then I'll just have to blame CA.

    *Edit*
    Ah, no wonder the use of "shogun_infantry_extralong_yari" wasn't widespread. Apparently it was added in Patch 7 and was not in the original version. Seems like a good feature to use, though.
    Last edited by Dainagon; 12-01-2011 at 19:20.

  24. #294
    Member Member Hister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    I will come up with a list sooner or later. In any case, the ones I mentioned earlier are the ones that I would place high on the list if the names are to be changed (e.g. Inaka, Shiro, Han... and Sensei, which I didn't mention last time)
    Thank you. When DV sees this he will give his last word on it. I don't know if he will be for it or not. I have a hunch he will be ;)

    Upon checking it, the entry is called "shogun_infantry_extralong_yari". There's only one unit (a DLC-based unit, in fact) that uses this warscape equipment theme.
    Yep, this longest spear came with the DLC. You gave a good suggestion and let's see if DV will attach it to more units.

    Another question that I should have asked is how moddable the campaign setup is.
    I don't know actually but what I know is that DV won't change this starting setting. It would be too much work for him imho.

  25. #295

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Attach is an example of s2r+ patch for the encyclopedia. Currently it covers only the land unit pages (all of them though), and hopefully I can cover naval units and the buildings too before end of this weekend.

    Here is a screenshot of the late Yari Ashigaru unit. In addition to the stats of the original encyclopedia, I added unit size and unit limit.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s2twdoc_shot1.PNG 
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ID:	3202

    For the requirements part, I list the buildings, arts, clans, and religions.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s2twdoc_shot2.PNG 
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ID:	3201

    Here's another example of one of the monks unit from AUM that has several requirements.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s2twdoc_shot3.PNG 
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ID:	3200

    And here's the HTML files. To use it in-game, just back up the original /data/encyclopedia/units and replace it with this one.

    encyclopedia-units_s2r+.zip

  26. #296

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Now the previous encyclopedia patch was created using shell scripts that work against tsv output of Pack File Manager. This means that it can be recreated easily at anytime, and that the result should be consistent with what is contained in the db files.

    Several things that I haven't figure out regarding the unit pages:

    - Strength and Weaknesses: Couldn't find the source for this from the DB. Maybe they're added manually to the HTML files.

    - Unit Descriptions: Again, couldn't find a consistent source for this from the DB. There's some info for some units, but couldn't find one that covers all of them.

    - Clan Requirements: the UP1 units do not have an entry in the units_to_exclusive_faction_permissions_tables that relates them to their exclusive clan, at least not in my DB files anyway (as I don't have the DLC). Therefore, as an example the UP1_Inf_Missile_Bandits_Hattori.html in my patch doesn't list Hattori in the required clan section. Same case goes for the mounted gunners etc.

    - Unit stats: I couldn't find the field for the unit speed -- so that is excluded for now.

    And several acknowledge issues:

    - Building and art image links: there are broken image links in the pages due to naming inconsistencies between the original encyclopedia writers and the db writers. This includes stuff like "defence" vs "defense" for one of the arts, "Archery range" vs "archery dojo", etc. I'm not going to fix these in the script's code, so to make it work just copy over the image you want to the target link.

    - Unit image links: I can't find a pattern to link between any details of the unit in the DB, and the name of the image files at encyclopedia\content_images\units. Compared to the building and art, the image file name for units are too inconsistent to work with. Therefore I created a seperate mapping file for this that links the unit's localisation_key and the image filename.

    Other than those, the HTML content should be consistent with what's in the DB, so users should be able to use it also to help check the consistency of the s2r+ mod.

    As for the scripts, I'm going to release them once I'm through with it. Should be useful and somewhat compatible with other major mods too.
    Last edited by asinkering; 12-03-2011 at 11:13. Reason: add more notes

  27. #297

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    I don't know actually but what I know is that DV won't change this starting setting. It would be too much work for him imho.
    From the changelog I figure startpos modification had cause problems in the past.

    I'm still using startpos modifs logic from the extended campaign mod (to 1640) and the odatokugawa alliance mod with s2r+ in my private build though because:

    - The short campaign isn't fun or even possible with my playing styles with this mod on.

    - I don't like to see tokugawa has to die too soon. With s2r+ Oda AI can still expand and take shogunate without Mikawa anyway (saw it twice already). For this I didn't change the vassal status of Tokugawa as in the odatokugawa alliance mod (that will takeout the fun of playing as tokugawa and destroying imagawa through diplomacy) -- I just modify the past relationship and change the war status between Tokugawa and Oda to peace, in order to ensure that they'll stay friendly until around the time for Sekigahara.

  28. #298

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    As promised, attached is an updated s2r+ encyclopaedia patch that covers all the units and buildings. It also includes update for the clan pages to list clan-specific units.

    So now we can easily see for example (screenshot below), what units are enabled by Kanabukama in advance -- and with the help of the unit pages itself we can see what other requirements there are in order to plan on where to place that Kanabukama.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	buildings.PNG 
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    And using the updated clan pages, we can now easily see which clan get access to which exclusive/shared units:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	clan-specific-units.PNG 
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ID:	3210

    For installation, just rename or backup the existing \data\encyclopaedia\units \data\encyclopaedia\buildings and \data\encyclopaedia\clans folders, and extract the content of the following zip file in-place of their original location.

    s2r+ encyclopedia v0.9.zip

  29. #299

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Notes and known issues with the encyclopaedia patch:

    1) The "first to build" effect of legendary buildings are not yet included in the building pages.

    2) For the sake of completeness the Art/Tech and unit class pages should also be patched, however I've run out of spare time for now and they're not much useful during the game anyway.

    3) Similar as previous version, there maybe broken image links (I don't check all those 200+ pages..) but most should be solved by now as I have found the reference for correct links in the db.

    4) The descriptions and strength & weaknesses are now copied over by the script from the reference encyclopaedia files that I have. However, for several units (i.e. the AUMs) there aren't such references so on those cases the description is set to "TBA manually".

    5) the text descriptions for the building effects (i.e. +1 happiness for Buddhist population) are added through a mapping list created by hand as there seems to be no reference in the DB for those. This means that the value (i.e. +1) will be correctly taken of the DB, but the entire text maybe different from those used in the original encyclopaedia. In most cases, I'm too lazy to look them up one-by-one so I just added my own description on the mapping list.

    6) Currently the clan requirement in the unit pages only stated which clans are given explicit access and which clans are explicitly denied access to the unit based on the db content. If I understand the actual impact of settings in units_to_exclusive_faction_permissions_tables is, I could've presented this information better, say for example by saying something like "All clans have access except A B C" or "Only CDE have access".

    To explain what I don't understand, take for example the Art_European_Cannons unit (Kanon | Nanban). Extract from the DB (S2R+_add_units_to_exclusive_faction_permissions.tsv) and hence the updated encyclopaedia, show several clans are given access to it, with two other clans hojo and ikko are being denied access to it. Now if the access given to the several clans are "exclusive" to begin with, why should there be additional explicit denies for hojo and ikko? And what about those clans that are not explicitly stated in the DB -- will they have access to the unit or not?

    7) In line with the problem I have in no. 6 above, few of the unit pages will have a same clan listed both in the allowed access AND denied access. This is because specifically for the clan requirement, I'm using two files of units_to_exclusive_faction tables, that is one from the game patch and one from S2R+ because what's in the S2R+ doesn't seem to fully replace what's in the game patch. Now because I don't know exactly how the system works yet, I could not determine what to do with the documentation when there's a conflicting entries between those files.

  30. #300

    Default Re: Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

    Encyclopaedia for S2R+ v2.96.3 (unofficial)


    s2r+ encyclopaedia 1.0.zip

    Attached is the latest, complete, and should be the final version of the encyclopaedia patch for S2R+ version 2.96.3. It now covers everything that is needed for seamless integration between the mod and the encyclopaedia, including: all the land/naval units, unit classes, buildings, techs, and clans pages.

    Again besides the obvious benefits of having the encyclopaedia usable in-game, this will allow us to understand s2r+ faster and perhaps help spot potential oversight, if any, in relevant part of S2R+ easily without having to play all the factions directly. The scripted process also implies that some types of inconsistencies/typos will be detected during the process (I'll post my findings seperately to the bug report thread).

    Installation:

    • Backup or rename the following encyclopaedia sub-folders: units, buildings, unit_classes, clans, tech
    • Extract content of the attached zip file to the encyclopaedia folder.


    Notes:
    • All broken link issues (should) have been addressed. I use another script to verify this on all of the output pages so it is 100% valid in my test environment. Exception to this are the links to the minor clans from the unit pages, as the minor clan pages don't exist in the original encyclopaedia.
    • The issue with conflicting faction unit's permission between vanilla and s2r+ files has been addressed. If there's conflicting assignment, I simply assume now that the one from original game files (vanilla/patches) are superseded by the entries in S2R+ files.
    • All effects for buildings and techs are now covered properly. The description in some places will still differ a bit from the original encyclopaedia due to the use of custom lookup tables for it, but the value should be correct as they're taken directly of the DB.
    • Some unit images will still be different than the one in the in-game unit cards, but this is because I don't have the file for it and not because of error in the scripting process.

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