Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

[DaVinci]

Hello, i'm not in the mood to make something for TWS2/S2R+ this time. I see now players are active in this forum ... however, i must have the drive first back to contribute, we will see, just not now. I'm thankful for any work and contribution for S2R+ though.

@ asinkering
I suggest you put your last post into a new thread, with the same title "Encyclopaedia for S2R+ v2.96.3 (unofficial)".

[Dainagon]

Hi all and thanks Hister for your response. In DaVinci's absence (not that he's gone forever, just saying that he's taking a break), a dev's word means a lot to me.

So I looked through the unit names and came up with some possible alternatives, while trying not to alter categories within each unit type. A big thanks to asinkering - your enclyclopaedia patch really made this easier!


Designation:
- Sensei -> Bugeisha
Why should tutors fight collectively as a group? Besides, I don't think the word Sensei was used the way it is today. This is CA's fantasy unit category, of course, but since removing a unit is a waste, I suggest instead renaming all "hero" units with Bugeisha ("excellent martial fellow") - e.g. Samurai - Bugeisha Yari.

- Ronin -> Dogou
Ronin as masterless warriors for hire is a product of romanticization, both during and after the Edo period (though I believe the devs know this as well). Seems to me a much better term is something like Jizamurai or Dogou, as all Ronin units have Samurai and "Inaka" (provincial) designation and are carry-overs from light samurai infantry/cavalry units. These "samurai" might not have been high-ranking individuals in terms of land ownership hierarchy, but having family names, land, and wealth to acquire armors and weapons certainly would have made them "samurai," only local in their control.

- Daimyo - Shiro - Han - Inaka
I have to get back to this.

- Bushi - Kashin - Shin - Oban
...and this too!

Infantry:
- Roketto -> Ishibiya (Boubiya)
Pretty obvious one. Roketto is too modern a word, and Ishibiya and Boubiya are the terms that appear in 16th and 17th century documents to refer to small rocket-like guns.

- Bakugeki Shu -> Houroku(-dama)
I'm not sure if CA actually had Houroku in mind when they made this unit, but Houroku-dama was the bomb that is known to have been used in the Sengoku era for various purposes. I believe it is not entirely clear as to how it was used on land, though.


Medium Ship
- Koju Bune -> Seirou Bune
Btw, if you were looking for a word that means "siege", Koju is wrong - it's Kojo. Anyhow, Seirou Sen is the term that best matches with the description of the ship. No need to create an artificial unit name here!


Heavy Ship
- Ju Bune -> Ataka Bune
Once again, no need to create an artificial term.

- Chukanbutsu Bune -> Seki Bune
Same as above.

- Sengoku Bune?
Don't know what this is supposed to represent. If it's supposed to be the "Thousand-koku" ship, this unit sure sounds anachronistic because that ship is, to my knowledge, associated with the latter half of the Edo era.

Light Ship
Bakugeki Shu Kobaya -> Houroku(-dama) Kobaya
- No need to explain this.

Cannon Ship
Kanon Bune -> Oozutsu (Oodzutsu) Bune? Ishibiya Bune? Mekura Bune?
- This is a tricky one because, depending on what you believe in, this unit could very well be a fantasy unit. Whether or not Japanese fleets used what we call cannons (as opposed to small projectiles) is still being disputed, and I belong to the skeptical side in this debate. :D Still, I think Oodzutsu Bune is the best option if the unit name is to be changed, because Oodzutsu denotes European-style and -sized cannons in modern historical writing.


Trade Ship
- Ho Aka Iro Sen -> Shuinsen
Another obvious one.

Galeon
- Tai Sen -> Nanban Sen
Once again a tricky one, but at least it fits well with vocabulary used in modern historical writing.

- Kuro Taisen -> Kuro Nanban Sen
CA clearly had Matthew Perry's ship here, but I don't know how this... black ship would have been called, so I went for the obvious.


P.S.
Hister, do you happen to be the same Hister on the Paradox forum? Do you happen to know some guy from the team who talks about Asian stuff there all the time?

[Hister]

Excellent stuff! Much appreciated. Hope you solve the remaining units. Then this work will be complete and done.

Yes DV will come back to this mod. He needs just some time away from modding.

P.S.
Hister, do you happen to be the same Hister on the Paradox forum? Do you happen to know some guy from the team who talks about Asian stuff there all the time?

Yes I happen to be that Hister. There isn't any other Hister nickname in use on the internetz to my knowledge - I'm quite happy about that fact.
I'm "helping" chatnoir17 who is a Sengoku moder in his Genpei mod mainly with design ideas and grammar. He's a Japanese studying in Germany.

I also hang out and am active with other people and games on the Paradox forums namely with the Arsenal of Democracy and Sengoku at the moment.

Why do you ask?

[Dainagon]

Yes I happen to be that Hister. There isn't any other Hister nickname in use on the internetz to my knowledge - I'm quite happy about that fact.
I'm "helping" chatnoir17 who is a Sengoku moder in his Genpei mod mainly with design ideas and grammar. He's a Japanese studying in Germany.

I also hang out and am active with other people and games on the Paradox forums namely with the Arsenal of Democracy and Sengoku at the moment.

Why do you ask?

Oops, sorry, I should have said "Do you happen to know some guy from the Magna Mundi team (me) who talks about Asian stuff there all the time?"!

[Hister]

YOU ARE THAT GUY!?

My deep bow to you master!

[Dainagon]

YOU ARE THAT GUY!?

My deep bow to you master!

I.... deserve that much praise? I recall seeing you on the Paradox forum time to time, but don't remember what kind of things we actually talked about. Might help if you could tell me any.
(Oh yes, I shouldn't be doing this, I should be focusing on MM before Ubik finds out!)

Anyways, here's the rest of alternative terms. I think this covers everything, so I'll post a before/after list of unit names later in the month.

- Inaka, Han - Shiro - Daimyo -> Souson, Kunishuu - Tozama - Fudai
Inaka, Han vs. Souson, Kunishuu: Inaka is a common noun that means "provincial," with no sense of historicity. Not only that, the word forces us to assume that there existed areas that were considered "provincial" in all provinces of Japan, when in fact a vast majority of settlements in Japan were "provincial" from Kyoto's or modern day perspective! Rather than using a word that is bound to be arbitrary in its definition, I suggeset using the word "Souson," a term that refers to de facto autonomous villages that started appearing from the late 15th century onward. I'd imagine a great majority of peasants who could muster basic armor and weaponry came from such villages.
As for Kunishuu, it's a term that collectively refers to "local" samurai leaders based in provinces outside the daimyo's residence. I believe that's the sort of idea that the word "Han" was supposed to convey in the mod.

Shiro vs. Tozama & Daimyo vs. Fudai: I think the distinction between Shiro and Daimyo is unclear at best because not all daimyo managed to invite their retainers to live in daimyo's residence. Besides, if you were to raise troops out of those who lived in such castles and represent them as a unit, you would end up with a disproportionately high percentage of high-ranking samurai, which would make this unit even more of a fantasy unit. "Daimyo" as a category sounds artificial for a similar reason.
"Tozama" and "Fudai" were words that were used well before the Edo era, but not as nouns but rather as adjectives. Figures from recently incorporated areas were often called Tozama ("outer kinds") because, quiet literally, they would be samurai leaders who would be the farthest away from the daimyo (both politically and physically). In contrast, the daimyo could trust those clans that served his clan "for generations" ("Fudai").

So you can now see that I used distance from the daimyo, in both literal and figurative sense, as the determinant, much like the old names.

- Bushi - Kashin - Shin - Oban -> Baishin - Hikan - Kashin - Umamawari
Bushi vs. Baishin: all of these classes may very well be called Bushi, meaning that the word is too inclusive; Baishin refers to those who serve masters who themselves serve a superior.

Kashin vs. Hikan: I believe this Kashin is supposed to be 下臣 (lower servant) and not 家臣 (house servant), as Kashin units have lower stats than Shin units. While there's nothing wrong with that, a more era-appropriate distinction would be Hikan - Kashin distinction, which is based on the degree of connection between them and the daimyo. Hikan refers to those local clans who accepted Daimyo's authority for the sake of political hierarchy; that's all that connects them. This was the case with Shugo Daimyo, who ruled with the force of legitimacy rather than real or organizational power.

Shin vs. Kashin: I'm referring to 家臣 (kashin) here. The difference between Hikan and Kashin, then, would be that Kashin's power derives as much from the daimyo as it does from their own land, and there's much clearer expectation of their feudal duty to the daimyo. This, of course, is what those daimyo that tried something new as opposed to the old Shugo system of rule managed to do when they were successful.

Oban vs. Umamawari: compared to Umamawari, Oban is associated too much with the Edo era, whereas Umamawari, even though it continued to be used in the Edo era, appears in Sengoku era documents and modern historical writings.

Wako -> Kaizokushuu
Today the word kaizoku is a common noun that means pirate, and the word "zoku" ("bandit") had as much negative connotation back then as it does today (think of "Zokugun" - rebel army, or literally "bandit army"), but apparently the term eventually stuck with these "pirate-trader-marine" fellows, regardless of whose side they were on. The term Wako, on the other hand, would have appeared in Chinese and Korean writings (Wokou/Waegu), and these men wouldn't have used an old but derogatory term coined by the Chinese.

[DaVinci]

Hello, i'm away from modding TWS2 atm., as the S2R+ project was very immersive (time- and energy-wise*) and a feeling "modified/playtested to death" is now valid for me, i even do not play TWS2 or a mod for it. But i'm not passive modding-wise, back in a renaissance of M2TW-Kingdoms modding, submodding of The Last Kingdom (TLK) and Third Age Total War (TATW), as of yet for my own usage only, but a submod-release for TLK is very soon published - after modding ETW, NTW and then recently S2TW, the "fallback" to the older engine is even a refreshing experience for me (i always did this with smaller or sometimes bigger mods, also RTW engine mods, i get bored when i'm too long on the same modding project).

* in the whole valid for me is that i can't afford a real teamwork anymore as for real life (free time limited), as i did in the past in many modding projects.

As for the unit names, many thanks, excellent work, Dainagon! Somebody with PFM-tool knowledge can easily implement those name changes, and release it as (unofficial) alternative S2R+ mod (as complete dl- and installation file, would be the easiest approach) in this forum ... until i have fun and energy again to apply the name changes, for a S2R+ update, which should be then also already the version 3.0 with other enhancements, but as said, these days i have no plan and idea when this will hapen.

[Hister]

I.... deserve that much praise? I recall seeing you on the Paradox forum time to time, but don't remember what kind of things we actually talked about. Might help if you could tell me any.
(Oh yes, I shouldn't be doing this, I should be focusing on MM before Ubik finds out!)

Well you being in MM team is a pretty good reason for all MM fans to make a deep bow to you. Now, with your deep knowledge of the region in question and your expertise this makes you quite a figure.

Not sure if we engaged in any direct conversations - it is more likely I was simply commenting MM in general because I did and still do comment quite often.

... and don't you worry, I won't tell the big brother (Ubik) about this... ;)

Thank you again for your research for this mod and your work on MM!

[asinkering]

There's only three localisation files that need to be updated to implement the name changes proposed by dainagon, so I can create an additional .pack file that contain just those files easily, and re-create the encyclopaedia to go along with it.

before that, dainagon perhaps you can have a final look at the attached .txt file and see if there's anything else to change? Chugen maybe? The .txt contains all available unit names in S2R+ if the proposed changes are incorporated.

list.txt

Here's the list of lookup reference that I used to create the attached .txt.

Current,Proposed
Sensei,Bugeisha
Ronin,Dogou
Roketto,Ishibiya
Bakugeki Shu,Hourokudama
Ko Ju Bune,Seirou Bune
Ju Bune,Ataka Bune
Chukanbutsu Bune,Seki Bune
Kanon Bune,Oodzutsu Bune
Ho Aka Iro Sen,Shuinsen
Tai Sen,Nanban Sen
Kuro Taisen,Kuro Nanban Sen
Inaka,Souson
Han,Kunishuu
Shiro,Tozama
Daimyo,Fudai
Bushi,Baishin
Kashin,Hikan
Shin,Kashin
Oban,Umamawari
Wako,Kaizokushuu

[Dainagon]

Hi asinkering,

I actually want you to hold on to it because I would eventually like to change recruitment pool distribution so that you don't have as many Kunishu's (there are just too many of these), I'm not sure what to do with the term Daisho, and so on. In any case, some of the more stuff that I would like to add are the following:

-Samurai O -> Onna Busha
This is the most ridiculous unit in the game (again the biggest problem is a bunch of females fighting as a unit), but Onna Busha is the most natural-sounding name for this unit.

-Remove recruitment pool name from Warrior Monk units & replace them with "Jisha" throughout
That would be Sohei units. If monks had to fight as a distinct group, it would have been when the temple they were from was an autonomous polity. Warfare between temples was common well until the 16th century especially in Kinai (areas near Kyoto) areas where great temples were located, and the Miyoshi once requested the Negoroji temple (Ikko Sect, btw) to aid them, and Ashikaga Yoshiaki also demanded their participation when he was intent on defeating Nobunaga.
So these warrior monks would not have served the daimyo directly, and that's why designations like Kunishu, Tozama, etc. don't fit. Instead, "Jisha" (temple-shrine) would be more appropriate since this does not denote any hierarchical relationship.

*Edit*
-Warrior Nuns-> Nisou/Ama
Another nonsense unit, but it's in the game anyways. Nisou and Ama are the words for female monk. I guess you could create a word "Nisouhei" for the sake of consistency.
...I just googled it after writing this, and it turns out that's exactly the word that the Japanese users came up with for their translation mod.

*Edit*
One thing I'm experimenting with is changing the order of terms so that it becomes less "busy" and makes more sense in the Japanese sequence of wording.

e.g. Yari Samurai | Dogo, Kunishu

You have the essential information (weapon type and social status [and hence unit type]) on the left and additional non-combat-related info on the right. IMO this sequencing both preserves the simplicity of S2TW's unit names and shows the additional info that S2R+ brings without making it look awkward.

[TheStealth]

well, i just hope that you'll come back to S2R+ some time soon (you're the reason i registered to this forum ;) ) and want to give a bit of unprofessional feedback since i have no idea of modding xD
what i really like in this mod is how the morale is pushed up greatly, this adds a much bigger difficulty level in defeating samurai and makes killing them much more rewarding ;) the battles are just awesome, it really didn't make much sence that the samurai started fleeing so early in vanilla, this is much better here
also i like that there are only few samurai avaliable and that they are truly elite...but that is also where i started to wonder
i'm playing takeda on legendary difficulty and i can only build 6 close combat ashigaru (4 naginata and 2 katana) units... is it really intended to rely on those weak chugen troops lategame? the pretty much suck ^^
what i've experienced with the CAI (i hope that stands for campaign - AI ;) ) is, that they always throw armies full of those chugen troops against me (I'm in the 90th turn) although they have the capability to build better ones
this always kills shogun2 lategame for me since the battles become way too easy. the AI should disband weak units to build better ones (i don't think they ever do that) it's just not thrilling to do a frontal assault with my cav troops against yari inf, and the inf routs after 5 seconds
with the right units the battles would be really awesome, but the army build of the AI always ruins it
i have not yet found a mod that solves that even though it is a major problem in my opinion

but still, S2R+ is my favourite mod so far, well done!

[LJFHutch]

Thought I'd leave some feedback about the battles. I always felt TW battles had unrealistically high casualties, so I was surprised that morale was increased in S2R.

After a bit of quick and dirty research I ended up on a wikipedia page, a few quotes from there with regard to battle casualties:

"The fourth battle [4th battle of Kawanakajima] resulted in greater casualties for both sides, as a percentage of total forces, than any other battle in the Sengoku Period"
"In the end, the Uesugi army suffered around 3000 losses [of 20,000], while the Takeda had about 4000 casualties [of 13,000]."

So my only criticism would be that battles should - usually at least - result in fewer than 20% casualties, where currently the casualties are usually horrendous for both sides. It seems battles are actually far less realistic in S2R. To quote HopAlongBunny early in the thread:

"First large battle with 1.6.
1500ish vs 2500.
Both sides fought to 90+% casualties."

I hope that didn't sound harsh, I just wanted to share my thoughts on that.

[TheStealth]

when the morale is lowered, the guys die because they are run down while they were fleeing, which means that the superior army has few casulties and the inferior huge
that sort of general retreat just isn't possible in this game because both sides fight until the end.

[DaVinci]

Hello guys, happy new year. Thanks for feedback.

@asinkering and @ Dainagon

If you both want you can join the S2R+ team*, this is then with access to the hidden dev forum on this site here. You eventually could then workout your things better, and: Update the whole mod (folder), and release it as new official S2R+ patch. Hister has moderation power for the S2R+ forum, so he could then also update certain sticky threads, so just in case, contact him via PM. For my part, i'm atm. out of TWS2/S2R+ modding (i might come back some day though).

*for this, click the Settings button (right top side of the website), and look for team/group membership application, Hister or me can then accept your join-application, and you'll see then the dev forum (afterwards, at best PM Hister or me, that we get aware you wanna join the team).

EDIT

No response whatsoever. Anyways the offer above to work "independently" on an official S2R+ update is pulled back, just because i update the mod again.

[Hister]

It's not going to be the same without you dear friend...

[DaVinci]

S2R+ updated to version 2.97, changelog included in download file and viewable in the sticky changelog thread.

[Hister]

Out of the blue! Yeeey!

[DaVinci]

Yes, just some players on TWC thread pushed me to update.

[DaVinci]

V 2.97.1 uploaded.

[DaVinci]

V 2.97.2 uploaded.

[DaVinci]

Update version 2.97.3 uploaded.

[DaVinci]

Update version 2.97.4 uploaded.

[DaVinci]

Update: S2R+ 2.97.5 uploaded.

[briny_norman]

Enjoying your mod immensely!
Just a quick thought:
When using mangonels in siege battles (attacking) I find they are more or less useless as their range does not allow them to fire into the castle.
This pretty much defeats the point of having them :-).
I suggest increasing the range so they can actually play a role in siege battles.
I'm going to do it to my own game - but I thought it might be a nice suggestion for the mod in general.

EDIT:

Just came across one more thing - the military and economic branches of the Ninja Hideout are a bit our of sync.
The military branch will end up giving you +2 exp for ninjas and kisho ninjas while the economic branch will give you the same + a lot of money...
Not hard to choose then... :-)
Or am I missing something?

[DaVinci]

Enjoying your mod immensely!
Just a quick thought:
When using mangonels in siege battles (attacking) I find they are more or less useless as their range does not allow them to fire into the castle.
This pretty much defeats the point of having them :-).
I suggest increasing the range so they can actually play a role in siege battles.
I'm going to do it to my own game - but I thought it might be a nice suggestion for the mod in general.

EDIT:

Just came across one more thing - the military and economic branches of the Ninja Hideout are a bit our of sync.
The military branch will end up giving you +2 exp for ninjas and kisho ninjas while the economic branch will give you the same + a lot of money...
Not hard to choose then... :-)
Or am I missing something?

Good, thanks. Will look into it.

Ranges were very recently overworked by me (for nearly all range weapons iirc.), so which value do you suggest for the mangonel?
However one should consider that mangonels weren't really used for sieges in Japan, but actually in field battles ... so from the historical-realism approach, i'm correct with the current value ... .

[Rolepgeek]

My first reaction to installing the mod:

*start chosokabe campaign*

*attack rebels*

*see the 'light' cavalry have 120 horsemen, and that my army is getting it's ass whooped*

"Screw this"

*uninstall mod*

But I tried it again, and when I stuck with it, it's pretty good. I'm doing a Shimazu campaign, I attacked the Ito right off, my entire army got slaughtered. Then I got bushido, got the max samurai, and slaughtered them.

So I like it, and I haven't gotten very far, but I have noticed something.

Yumi Inaka Ashigaru are the biggest waster of money ever. In my last battle, one used up half it's ammo and racked up a single kill. The other one used up a quarter without even one kill. While each of my other units got over 100 kills, or close to. They're so nerfed it's ridiculous. I'm sorry, but that's just...no. It might have to do with the accuracy. 10? And 75 range? I just don't see the point in recruiting an keeping them. Besides, only like three fire at any one time, the rest it's like they can't see that there's even a battle going on.

Also, the trading port doesn't allow you to make teppo ashigaru, just samurai? What's that about?

[briny_norman]

Good, thanks. Will look into it.

Ranges were very recently overworked by me (for nearly all range weapons iirc.), so which value do you suggest for the mangonel?
However one should consider that mangonels weren't really used for sieges in Japan, but actually in field battles ... so from the historical-realism approach, i'm correct with the current value ... .

Actually, I think you're right.
Mangonels are fun in a siege - but not really historial and also kind of a cheat.
So its probably better to leave them at the current range.

[Nihahs]

Hey guys,
I dont know if somebody had asked this before but why are the Katana Unit limited? I can understand that they're Samurai and unique but I'm in round 80 and I have just 1 good army because I cant built more good units! Can somebody help me?
Or could it be that is the effect of vragos campaign?

[DaVinci]

Don't know, but i guess Vragos' mod is an overhaule mod like S2R+. You should play either his one or S2R+.

[Rolepgeek]

Hey...Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't doing something very simple solve the problem TheStealth brought up? Have semi low morale, but, very easy to turn on and slightly more difficult to turn on 'fight to the death'. Think realistically. If you're in the middle of the enemy, with them all around(and I don't think there was such a thing as war prisoners in Japan then...), you're not going to try and run through them and get slaughtered, you're going to fight as best you can. Also, fight to the death should infer some melee attack bonuses, as desperate men fight harder. That way, attacking routing foes would be a risk that may not be worth it...

EDIT: Also, an idea, that would truly make the mod unique(At least I don't think it's been done before...) is a way to make it so only some of the 'kills' in battle were actual kills, others were injuries that would take a few months to heal, (one turn), and others were just knockouts or wounds that would take a few days or a week to heal(ready in time for next battle.) Of course, any wounded left on the field by the loser would die, but I don't know whether the knockouts would be strong enough to fight off the enemy or escape, or if the winners would let them go, or kill them...Maybe a choice like in the other total war games, except no ransom or prisoners, but releasing them adds a trait, and the more times you do it, it can get your honor up? And maybe down eventually(if you're 'squeamish'). As well, any wounded in winter don't survive the season...so waging war in winter adds an extra level of danger. AND ANOTHER IDEA: Maybe, when you're in your own provinces, during the fall, ashigaru would suffer severe 'attrition', from the ashigaru deserting to go back to their farms? If you're in an enemy province it's not as big a deal, since they wouldn't exactly be able to make it back in time... I just think this might add some more realism. Might be hard to do though.